Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[truth7t7]

13 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

No, there is no anomaly. But if your given verses says that He is in heaven and Ephesians says He is above the highest heaven, you have to deal with it. And it is not difficult. 8 times does scripture speak of the "Heavens OF heaven ... that cannot contain God"

Nice swapping ideas with you. Go well.

 

God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent

Stop trying to put God the creator in your little shoe box, he doesn't fit

Edited May 10, 2022 by truth7t7

[iamlamad]

'God" (the God of creation) is Omnipresent. However, He is a God of three persons (just as all humans are - made in His image). 

God the Father is always seen seated on His throne. 

Isaiah 6:1
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Psalm 11:4
The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

Ezekiel 1:26
And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

Daniel 7:9
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Revelation 4:2
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Jesus is at the Father's right hand:

Hebrews 8:1
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

 

Stephen SAW Him there.

Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Psalms 11:4 tells us His throne is in "heaven." Jessie Duplantis visited heaven. As they (He and an angel) approached heaven, Jessie saw that it was a planet, with mountains and rivers. But on that planet was the Holy City with streets of gold. Inside that city is the palace of God that includes the throne room. Many believers have SEEN this throne room and got prayed back to their bodies. One man guessed that the pillars holding up the ceiling were 30 feet in diameter. It is a HUGE room. Many have also seen the THRONE in the throne room. 

Jessie saw Jesus walk right into the Father and the two become ONE. He saw Jesus walk right out again and the ONE became Two. Then Jessie said he asked His angel the stupidest question: He asked, "I see Jesus, and I see the Father: but where is the Holy Spirit? The angel said, "He is on the earth!" 

Why make something that is simple more difficult? These are spiritual things seen with the eyes of one's human spirit. We normally don't see into the realm of the spirit. Is there such a thing as a "place" in the realm of the spirit? Does God's throne take up "space" in the throne room? I can only guess YES. 

"Heaven" then can mean the air above us, space above the atmosphere, and it can also mean the place where God's throne is.

[Diaste]

On 4/19/2022 at 6:07 PM, iamlamad said:

So far, no one has told me when they expect this passage to take place. WHEN will Jesus take us to the homes He has built?

Or will He expect us to find our home on our own?

Leave the gaps be gaps. Just trust, don't fill.

[DeighAnn]

On 4/26/2022 at 10:07 AM, AdHoc said:

Let us then examine your statements in this example.
- In the first sentence you maintain that "comes back to them". But you conveniently leave out WHY! But I will tell you why He comes back to them - TO BREATH THE TRIUNE GOD INTO THEM SO THAT THEY, IN THAT DAY, WILL BE IN THE SAME PLACE AS JESUS WAS AS HE WAS THEN TALKING.
- Then you says that the "Lamb slain "has brought" (past tense) in the New Covenant. On what basis? Pray, tell us why then with the New Covenant in effect the House of Israel is still missing and the remnant of the house of Judah are destroyed 40 years later EVEN THOUGH THE LAWS OF GOD ARE WRITTEN INSIDE OF THEM!
- Then you say that the new Covenant is one of Grace, but both Jeremiah and Hebrews say that it is one of God's LAWS (Jer.31:31-33, Heb.8:10).
- Then you state that "WE" are no longer under Law but we are under grace. But I ask then; "when were we ever under Law?" The Law is the contents of a Covenant made with Israel ALONE.
- Then you say that we will go to be, "where He is at the right hand of God". But in John 14 He was NOT at the right hand of God. The promise of John 14 is not to be at the right hand of God at a later date. It is that we would be where Jesus already was in John 14 - IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN US
- Then you say that He will receive us in heaven and bring us to the Father. NO my sister! This is what the Father said through Jesus in John 4:23-24

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Since the context is a PLACE ("this mountain or that mountain"), "the spirit" must be a PLACE - the human spirit. And the "HOUR WAS" when the true worshipers of God would be doing this. Where then is God's throne in this? Where is heaven in this? Our Lord Jesus was ON EARTH and not dead yet, not resurrected yet! And if the Samaritan woman wanted to be a true worshiper the throne in heaven was NOT the PLACE to be. the PLACE to meet God is the human spirit. And so it is. In our rebirth; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (Jn 3:6).

In your comments, you did not represent what scripture says IN EVERY SENTENCE. Could it be that not caring what things are called in scripture has led to this lapse? I don't know, ...

IN EVERY SENTENCE?  Has a single person EVER accomplished such a thing? Rhetorical

So, as to the first point

JOHN 13:33
LITTLE CHILDREN yet a little while with you I am. 
You will seek Me, and as I said to the Jews,  "Where I go, you not are able to come", also to you I say now.

What is/are the SUBJECT(s)? Christs short time left, the 'seeking' of Him, and where He is headed.  


The Lord giving instructions to Christians on what to do, how to act, how to address one another, how to treat those in the BODY of CHRIST. 
34  A commandment new I give to you, that you should love one another as I have loved  you so also you should love one another

 

The Lord telling us THIS is how the WORLD will know if we are of Him or not
35  By this will know all that to Me disciples you are if love you have among one another


Again, The Lords 'departure' from them and the letting them know they will be FOLLOWING after He has gone.
36  Says to Him Simon Peter, "Lord, where go You?"  Answered him Jesus "Where I go not you are able Me now to follow, YOU WILL FOLLOW  however afterward


Peter, not wanting to be separated from His presence, EVEN BY HIS DEATH
37  Says to Him Peter "Lord, because of why not am I able to You to follow presently?  The life of me for You I will lay down"

737. arti: just now
Original Word: ἄρτι
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: arti
Phonetic Spelling: (ar'-tee)
Definition: just now
Usage: now, just now, at this moment.
HELPS Word-studies
737 árti (an adverb) – now (this instant); here-and-now; exactly now, in the immediate present.  737 /árti ("now") refers to the present as the time to act – i.e. to live "in the now" (= "being alive unto God" now, cf. Ro 6:11).)

 

But we know that instead of laying down his life, HE DENIED the Lord 3 times. 
38  Answered Jesus The life of you for Me will you lay down?   Truly  truly I say to you no not rooster will crow until that you will deny Me three times

BUT what does our Lord and Saviour say?
14:1  Not let be troubled of you the heart.  You believe in God, also in Me believe.


We continue on with the subject of WHERE is He going.  
2  In the HOUSE of the Father of Me mansions many there are: 
if now not would I have told you that I GO to PREPARE a place for you?

3614 oikia: a HOUSE, dwelling
Original Word: οἰκία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikia
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kee'-ah)
Definition: a house, dwelling
Usage: a house, household, dwelling; meton: goods, property, means.

3438  moné: an abiding, an abode
Original Word: μονή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: moné
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-ay')
Definition: an abiding, an abode
Usage: lodging, dwelling-place, room, abode, mansion.
HELPS Word-studies
3438 monḗ (from 3306 /ménō, "to remain, abide") – an abiding dwelling-place (i.e. not transitory). 3438 /monḗ ("an individual dwelling") is only used twice in the NT (both times by Christ). a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode

INDIVIDUAL?  NOT THE WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST?  What about the pre trib church?  where will it go?  Every single time I turn around it is met with a slap in the face.  


14:3  And if I go and prepare
(His work is not yet finished here on earth as 

The Lamb Slain
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by HIS OWN BLOOD HE entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

TO bring in the NEW COVENANT
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


And descend to those who are prisoners and in bondage to death to preach the good news
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives,  and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.)

WE REMEMBER THE SUBJECT - He is here a little while, then not found but because He goes to the FATHER  

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

a place for you, AGAIN I AM COMING
and will receive YOU to MYSELF,
that where am I, ALSO you may be. 


This is not a 'spiritual' place as we have already been made new creatures, we have already been born from above, born of the Spirit, we ALREADY have died and been raised and are with Him.  This is not about the HOLY SPIRIT DWELLING IN US, THAT IS COMING NEXT, but has NOTHING to do with our NEVER DIE ETERNAL LIFE STATUS.

4 And to the place I AM GOING you know the way

5  Says to Him Thomas, "Lord not we know where You are going.  HOW can we the way know?"

6  Says to him Jesus, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life.  NO ONE COMES to the Father if not by Me.

NO ONE IS SAVED BUT BY HIM.  No one gets into heaven but BY HIM.  He is the way everyone must go.  Only by going through Him can anyone be BROUGHT to the Father. 

Jesus goes on to tell them HE  is in the Father and the Father is in Him.  If you have seen HIM you have seen the Father.  'What' He does and says,  IS OF GOD. 

12  Truly truly I say to you, the [one] believing in Me, the works that I do, also he will do, and greater than these he will do because I to the FATHER AM GOING.

WHERE IS THE LORD AND SAVIOUR RIGHT NOW?  Where He has been for the past 2000 years

14  If you love Me commandments My you will keep

THAT IS JESUS TELLING US OF THE PLACE IN HEAVEN WE WILL BE GOING TO WHEN WE DIE, TO ABODE WITH HIM WHERE HE IS.



Now, we are told HOW He is going to be in our LIFE before we will be going  to be with Him and the Father in 'the place He went to prepare for us'. 


16.   And I will ask the Father and another HELPER He will give you that He may be with you to the age. 

17  the SPIRIT of truth, whom the world NOT is able to receive because NOT it does see Him, nor know.  BUT you know Him for with you HE ABIDES, and in you He will be

Jesus is going to the Father but for those who 'come to faith' BEFORE we ever go to be with Him in heaven,  HE COMES TO BE WITH US while we walk the earth. 

18  Not I will leave you AS ORPHANS, I am coming to you.

Though we did not 'walk' on the earth at the same time He did, we still walk WITH Him while we do, until we go to live on with Him in heaven

19  Yet a little while and the world Me no more sees, YOU HOWEVER see Me because I LIVE.  Also you will live. 

This isn't some sort of TRICK to make us believe we don't die when we actually do die some type of 'death' and are really part of the 'resurrection from the dead', 

but THE SIMPLE TRUTH of how we never die. 

AS WE LIVE now IN A BODY, as a whole being, we will live on in a body as a whole being

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Matthew 22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

God gave us a body for this world and one for the next. Just as they saw HIM walking and talking and eating in HIS SPIRITUAL body we will be RAISED UP in our spiritual body, walking and talking and IN HEAVEN and in robes and in the place He went to.  Not 'a spirit' WITHOUT a body but our whole body and soul, our being, our spirit IN our spiritual body. 

It is sown a natural body it is raised up a spiritual body as IT DOESN'T SAY IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY IT IS RAISED UP A SPIRIT WITHOUT A BODY. 

WHEN will this take place?  ON the day this 'natural' body quits working.  What day is that day?  The day we should all be looking and watching for.  The day ALL Christians who have lived over the past 2000 years HAVE hopefully 'watching for' because ready or not you will find yourself in an unexpected moment standing before the Judgment seat of Christ.  And if He does come 'UNEXPECTEDLY' and you were not watching, it will feel like a 'thief in the night', but IF YOU ARE WAITING you will find yourself ready to 'meet' Him at any and every moment.

The words of GOD were not written for the first and last generations only.  


20  In that day
will know
 1097. ginóskó ►
Strong's Concordance
ginóskó: to come to know, recognize, perceive
Original Word: γινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ghin-oce'-ko)
Definition: to come to know, recognize, perceive
Usage: I am taking in knowledge, come to know, learn; aor: I ascertained, realized.HELPS Word-studies
1097 ginṓskō – properly, to know, especially through personal experience (first-hand acquaintance). 1097 /ginṓskō ("experientially know") is used for example in Lk 1:34, "And Mary [a virgin] said to the angel, 'How will this be since I do not know (1097 /ginṓskō = sexual intimacy) a man?'"

you that
I in the Father of Me
and
you in Me,
and
I in you. 


The 'living' won't EVER be 'resurrected' out from the dead of the dust, out from the grave, out from the dead who died in sin and went to hell.   Jesus did that for us.  WE PASS THROUGH death.  


 

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

Who will see GOD on His Throne IN HEAVEN?  Those who attain'the Rest' the wicked will never have.  Who will never know or be in bondage to death?  Those who never die.  Such a simple concept where everything written is what is meant.  No confusion like 'the place is not a place at all but is in fact the state of mind place which isn't really even a place unless it is worded to sound like it is,  kind of.  


21  The [one] having the commandments of Me and keeping them, he is the [one] loving Me, the [one] now loving Me will be loved by the Father of Me and I will love him and will show to him MYSELF. 


22  Says to Him Judas, not Iscariot, Lord then what HAS OCCURRED that to us You are about to manifest

(1718. emphanizó
Strong's Concordance
emphanizó: to exhibit, appear (in person), to declare
Original Word: ἐμφανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: emphanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (em-fan-id'-zo)
Definition: to exhibit, appear (in person), to declare
Usage: I make visible (manifest); hence: I report (inform) against; pass: I appear before.
appear, declare plainly, inform, disclose
From emphanes; to exhibit (in person) or disclose (by words) -- appear, declare (plainly), inform, (will) manifest, shew, signify).

Yourself and not to the world?

Jesus says to those who love Him, THE WORDS OF HIM they keep and when they do that,  the FATHER of Him loves them and so to them is the Holy Spirit given…They will come and a home with him will make. 


26  The however Helper the Spirit Holy whom will send the Father in the name of Me, He you will teach all things and will bring to remembrance of you all things that have said to you I

28  You heard that I said to you 'I AM GOING AWAY AND I AM COMING TO YOU'.   If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father because the Father greater than I is. 



Do you know of a verse where 'the church' is addressed as such or even as a group as all these verses speak to INDIVIDUALS, (just like the messages to the churches all end with TO HIM (individual) who overcomes)?  Any verses you know of that speak to overcoming not to the end but to 'the before the end' end or is that just found in the words of men? 
 

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

IN EVERY SENTENCE?  Has a single person EVER accomplished such a thing? Rhetorical

So, as to the first point

JOHN 13:33
LITTLE CHILDREN yet a little while with you I am. 
You will seek Me, and as I said to the Jews,  "Where I go, you not are able to come", also to you I say now.

What is/are the SUBJECT(s)? Christs short time left, the 'seeking' of Him, and where He is headed.  


The Lord giving instructions to Christians on what to do, how to act, how to address one another, how to treat those in the BODY of CHRIST. 
34  A commandment new I give to you, that you should love one another as I have loved  you so also you should love one another

 

The Lord telling us THIS is how the WORLD will know if we are of Him or not
35  By this will know all that to Me disciples you are if love you have among one another


Again, The Lords 'departure' from them and the letting them know they will be FOLLOWING after He has gone.
36  Says to Him Simon Peter, "Lord, where go You?"  Answered him Jesus "Where I go not you are able Me now to follow, YOU WILL FOLLOW  however afterward


Peter, not wanting to be separated from His presence, EVEN BY HIS DEATH
37  Says to Him Peter "Lord, because of why not am I able to You to follow presently?  The life of me for You I will lay down"

737. arti: just now
Original Word: ἄρτι
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: arti
Phonetic Spelling: (ar'-tee)
Definition: just now
Usage: now, just now, at this moment.
HELPS Word-studies
737 árti (an adverb) – now (this instant); here-and-now; exactly now, in the immediate present.  737 /árti ("now") refers to the present as the time to act – i.e. to live "in the now" (= "being alive unto God" now, cf. Ro 6:11).)

 

But we know that instead of laying down his life, HE DENIED the Lord 3 times. 
38  Answered Jesus The life of you for Me will you lay down?   Truly  truly I say to you no not rooster will crow until that you will deny Me three times

BUT what does our Lord and Saviour say?
14:1  Not let be troubled of you the heart.  You believe in God, also in Me believe.


We continue on with the subject of WHERE is He going.  
2  In the HOUSE of the Father of Me mansions many there are: 
if now not would I have told you that I GO to PREPARE a place for you?

3614 oikia: a HOUSE, dwelling
Original Word: οἰκία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikia
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kee'-ah)
Definition: a house, dwelling
Usage: a house, household, dwelling; meton: goods, property, means.

3438  moné: an abiding, an abode
Original Word: μονή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: moné
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-ay')
Definition: an abiding, an abode
Usage: lodging, dwelling-place, room, abode, mansion.
HELPS Word-studies
3438 monḗ (from 3306 /ménō, "to remain, abide") – an abiding dwelling-place (i.e. not transitory). 3438 /monḗ ("an individual dwelling") is only used twice in the NT (both times by Christ). a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode

INDIVIDUAL?  NOT THE WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST?  What about the pre trib church?  where will it go?  Every single time I turn around it is met with a slap in the face.  


14:3  And if I go and prepare
(His work is not yet finished here on earth as 

The Lamb Slain
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by HIS OWN BLOOD HE entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

TO bring in the NEW COVENANT
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


And descend to those who are prisoners and in bondage to death to preach the good news
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives,  and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.)

WE REMEMBER THE SUBJECT - He is here a little while, then not found but because He goes to the FATHER  

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

a place for you, AGAIN I AM COMING
and will receive YOU to MYSELF,
that where am I, ALSO you may be. 


This is not a 'spiritual' place as we have already been made new creatures, we have already been born from above, born of the Spirit, we ALREADY have died and been raised and are with Him.  This is not about the HOLY SPIRIT DWELLING IN US, THAT IS COMING NEXT, but has NOTHING to do with our NEVER DIE ETERNAL LIFE STATUS.

4 And to the place I AM GOING you know the way

5  Says to Him Thomas, "Lord not we know where You are going.  HOW can we the way know?"

6  Says to him Jesus, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life.  NO ONE COMES to the Father if not by Me.

NO ONE IS SAVED BUT BY HIM.  No one gets into heaven but BY HIM.  He is the way everyone must go.  Only by going through Him can anyone be BROUGHT to the Father. 

Jesus goes on to tell them HE  is in the Father and the Father is in Him.  If you have seen HIM you have seen the Father.  'What' He does and says,  IS OF GOD. 

12  Truly truly I say to you, the [one] believing in Me, the works that I do, also he will do, and greater than these he will do because I to the FATHER AM GOING.

WHERE IS THE LORD AND SAVIOUR RIGHT NOW?  Where He has been for the past 2000 years

14  If you love Me commandments My you will keep

THAT IS JESUS TELLING US OF THE PLACE IN HEAVEN WE WILL BE GOING TO WHEN WE DIE, TO ABODE WITH HIM WHERE HE IS.



Now, we are told HOW He is going to be in our LIFE before we will be going  to be with Him and the Father in 'the place He went to prepare for us'. 


16.   And I will ask the Father and another HELPER He will give you that He may be with you to the age. 

17  the SPIRIT of truth, whom the world NOT is able to receive because NOT it does see Him, nor know.  BUT you know Him for with you HE ABIDES, and in you He will be

Jesus is going to the Father but for those who 'come to faith' BEFORE we ever go to be with Him in heaven,  HE COMES TO BE WITH US while we walk the earth. 

18  Not I will leave you AS ORPHANS, I am coming to you.

Though we did not 'walk' on the earth at the same time He did, we still walk WITH Him while we do, until we go to live on with Him in heaven

19  Yet a little while and the world Me no more sees, YOU HOWEVER see Me because I LIVE.  Also you will live. 

This isn't some sort of TRICK to make us believe we don't die when we actually do die some type of 'death' and are really part of the 'resurrection from the dead', 

but THE SIMPLE TRUTH of how we never die. 

AS WE LIVE now IN A BODY, as a whole being, we will live on in a body as a whole being

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Matthew 22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

God gave us a body for this world and one for the next. Just as they saw HIM walking and talking and eating in HIS SPIRITUAL body we will be RAISED UP in our spiritual body, walking and talking and IN HEAVEN and in robes and in the place He went to.  Not 'a spirit' WITHOUT a body but our whole body and soul, our being, our spirit IN our spiritual body. 

It is sown a natural body it is raised up a spiritual body as IT DOESN'T SAY IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY IT IS RAISED UP A SPIRIT WITHOUT A BODY. 

WHEN will this take place?  ON the day this 'natural' body quits working.  What day is that day?  The day we should all be looking and watching for.  The day ALL Christians who have lived over the past 2000 years HAVE hopefully 'watching for' because ready or not you will find yourself in an unexpected moment standing before the Judgment seat of Christ.  And if He does come 'UNEXPECTEDLY' and you were not watching, it will feel like a 'thief in the night', but IF YOU ARE WAITING you will find yourself ready to 'meet' Him at any and every moment.

The words of GOD were not written for the first and last generations only.  


20  In that day
will know
 1097. ginóskó ►
Strong's Concordance
ginóskó: to come to know, recognize, perceive
Original Word: γινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ghin-oce'-ko)
Definition: to come to know, recognize, perceive
Usage: I am taking in knowledge, come to know, learn; aor: I ascertained, realized.HELPS Word-studies
1097 ginṓskō – properly, to know, especially through personal experience (first-hand acquaintance). 1097 /ginṓskō ("experientially know") is used for example in Lk 1:34, "And Mary [a virgin] said to the angel, 'How will this be since I do not know (1097 /ginṓskō = sexual intimacy) a man?'"

you that
I in the Father of Me
and
you in Me,
and
I in you. 


The 'living' won't EVER be 'resurrected' out from the dead of the dust, out from the grave, out from the dead who died in sin and went to hell.   Jesus did that for us.  WE PASS THROUGH death.  


 

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

Who will see GOD on His Throne IN HEAVEN?  Those who attain'the Rest' the wicked will never have.  Who will never know or be in bondage to death?  Those who never die.  Such a simple concept where everything written is what is meant.  No confusion like 'the place is not a place at all but is in fact the state of mind place which isn't really even a place unless it is worded to sound like it is,  kind of.  


21  The [one] having the commandments of Me and keeping them, he is the [one] loving Me, the [one] now loving Me will be loved by the Father of Me and I will love him and will show to him MYSELF. 


22  Says to Him Judas, not Iscariot, Lord then what HAS OCCURRED that to us You are about to manifest

(1718. emphanizó
Strong's Concordance
emphanizó: to exhibit, appear (in person), to declare
Original Word: ἐμφανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: emphanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (em-fan-id'-zo)
Definition: to exhibit, appear (in person), to declare
Usage: I make visible (manifest); hence: I report (inform) against; pass: I appear before.
appear, declare plainly, inform, disclose
From emphanes; to exhibit (in person) or disclose (by words) -- appear, declare (plainly), inform, (will) manifest, shew, signify).

Yourself and not to the world?

Jesus says to those who love Him, THE WORDS OF HIM they keep and when they do that,  the FATHER of Him loves them and so to them is the Holy Spirit given…They will come and a home with him will make. 


26  The however Helper the Spirit Holy whom will send the Father in the name of Me, He you will teach all things and will bring to remembrance of you all things that have said to you I

28  You heard that I said to you 'I AM GOING AWAY AND I AM COMING TO YOU'.   If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father because the Father greater than I is. 



Do you know of a verse where 'the church' is addressed as such or even as a group as all these verses speak to INDIVIDUALS, (just like the messages to the churches all end with TO HIM (individual) who overcomes)?  Any verses you know of that speak to overcoming not to the end but to 'the before the end' end or is that just found in the words of men? 
 

OK. Quite a bit of time has gone by since our last exchange in this thread. But I think that we can summarize your doctrine into two main ones;
1.  The Father's House in John 14 is heaven
2.  A Christian does not actually die, but at the putting away of his mortal body, he is furnished with a spirit-body and goes to heaven

My answer is as follows:
1.  Who gets to define the Father's House? Is it the Father through His written Word, or is it His servants through their thoughts? I declare that scripture establishes the Father's House. If you decide that it is your prerogative to name the Father's House, my answer is that we discuss God's Word here on this Forum. Your OPINIONS are accepted, but only insofar as they confirm God's Word's. The Father's House is;
-  The Tabernacle of the Wilderness (Josh.6:24)
-  Solomon's Temple (1st Ki.9:1 etc.)
-  Zerubbabel's Temple (Jn.2:16)
-  The Body of Christ (Jn.2:21)
-  The Church (1st Tim.3:15)

Never ONCE does scripture call Heaven "The Father's House".

Our Lord Jesus told His disciples that He would go away and COME again. He went to His death and Hades to "prepare" the many "abodes" for his disciples. Three days later He was raised from the dead and told Mary that He was about to ascend to his Father. Hebrews tells us that He ascended to present His blood to the Father and was accepted. That night He returned as promised and breathed the Triune God into His disciples. With the way to the Father prepared, the Father came to dwell IN the disciples. As individuals they were Temples of God. Corporately they were the Church - the House of the living God.

2.  The best and most documented death is that of Jesus. His spirit ascended to His Father. His body was placed in a rich man's tomb on the surface of the earth. His SOUL descended to the heart of the earth (Matt.12:40, Eph.4:8-9) to a place called Hades (Act.2:31), but was reunited to His other parts three days later by His own power. According to Acts 2:27-34 David did the same. His Tomb is still at Jerusalem. His spirit was "given up" (Eccl.3:21, 12:7) and he has not "ascended" from Hades.

In every single recorded resurrection, the same body was raised. The new body is called "spiritual" because the Holy Spirit builds it. It has the substance though of created man. It can be touched, it can walk and talk and it can eat. According to 1st Corinthians 15:23 and 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 our bodies are RAISED when Christ returns.

Colossians Chapter 1 assures us that our Lord Jesus must have "preeminence" in ALL things. That is, he sets the pace. No man can do otherwise. This would make that man preeminent.

[DeighAnn]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:56 AM, AdHoc said:

Who gets to define the Father's House?

The Lord and Saviour, and He did, and it as simple as that. 


Jesus KNEW what was about to happen.  Jesus KNEW where He was going.  Jesus KNEW we would be reading these words.  He didn't speak in some 'hard to understand' way but in a very straight forward easy to follow and easy to understand way. But in case it wasn't, we have Peter asking the questions we might ask today.  Maybe it was a little hard for Peter to understand but as for US, today, we have ALL the information and hindsight he didn't have, so to me, it's a VERY STRANGE question.  

 Don't you think they KNEW God was in heaven?  On the Throne?  Why complicate it?  

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What place did He go to prepare?  

He went, we follow.  He didn't go to 'prepare' a place for Himself to return to.  If He had then THAT is what would have been written instead of what was.   BELIEF and faith and baptism already 'prepared' us for the Holy Spirit to come and dwell, as we have been made into new creatures having been born again, born from above, born of the SPIRIT. 

He died and went to the right hand of God and sent the Holy Spirit but He STAYED at the right hand of God where He will REMAIN until 'enemies made His footstool', RIGHT?   

Makes you wonder why He would make a 'special trip' TO RAISE 'unjust dead' and bring them to heaven WITH THE CHURCH, doesn't it??   I can't imagine giving them immortality without them EVER having 'been saved'.  Seems much better to have THE DEAD 'rise up' when HE returns for the second advent,  when HE brings about His kingdom on earth.  THEN they could be TAUGHT by all the priests running around for the next 1000 years, before THE DEAD STAND IN JUDGMENT.  


IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE TO BE RAISED UP OUT FROM THE DEAD,  IF YOU NEVER DIE?
The living don't go to be with THE DEAD, as we know by Isa 61.

I GO,  YOU FOLLOW.   Paul tells us the exact same thing here. 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

HAD to follow to be brought back.  

SINCE we are 'following' then He isn't coming TO GET anyone at all, is He?

and here again

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

NOT "do they come with a body or not" but what BODY will it be. 

We are all BORN as 'pots' filled with dirt.  Earthen vessels filled with soil.  If we have GOOD DIRT then when the SEEDS are sown the SEED takes root and grows, (spiritual birth/born from above/born again/made a new creature) But the FLESH has to die for the new life to begin. 

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.




 

[DeighAnn]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:56 AM, AdHoc said:

Our Lord Jesus told His disciples that He would go away and COME again. He went to His death and Hades to "prepare" the many "abodes" for his disciples. Three days later He was raised from the dead and told Mary that He was about to ascend to his Father. Hebrews tells us that He ascended to present His blood to the Father and was accepted. That night He returned as promised and breathed the Triune God into His disciples. With the way to the Father prepared, the Father came to dwell IN the disciples. As individuals they were Temples of God. Corporately they were the Church - the House of the living God.

IF you are willing to SKIP OVER what was REALLY WRITTEN.  

You said "Our Lord Jesus told His disciples that He would go away and COME again. He went to His death and Hades to "prepare" the many "abodes" for his disciples." 

Are you telling me you THINK after TELLING THEM THEY WOULD NEVER DIE, He went to prepare 'abodes' for them WITH THE DEAD?  

It's no wonder we don't understand this the same way as that doesn't strike you as complete CONFUSION,  as it does me obviously.



You said "Three days later He was raised from the dead and told Mary that He was about to ascend to his Father"

LEFT some REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS OUT that changes that ENTIRE PERSPECTIVE, didn't you? 

LIKE what HE SAID was being fulfilled at that time in 

"Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound

and for sure fulfilled when

1st witness in what is written
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

2nd 
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

3rd
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

THAT is what HAPPENED under the law of sin and DEATH.  Break one you broke them all and the wages of sin is DEATH.  No grace under THAT.  No washing clean by the blood of Christ did they have.   NO, THEY went into the grave and STAYED in the grave UNTIL the very last day that 'LAW' was in effect.  

And that last day was when JESUS went and preached the GOOD NEWS.  And they believed and THE GRAVES WERE OPENED.  

And the New Covenant, THE GIFT OF SALVATION was brought into effect and A NEW DAY BEGAN. 

With a NEW WAY for those BORN AGAIN.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?





You said "Hebrews tells us that He ascended to present His blood to the Father and was accepted. That night He returned as promised and breathed the Triune God into His disciples. With the way to the Father prepared, the Father came to dwell IN the disciples. As individuals they were Temples of God. Corporately they were the Church - the House of the living God."



FOLLOW HIM, TO BE WHERE HE IS.  NOT JUST IN THIS LIFE BUT IN THE NEXT ONE.  

Again, THE INDIVIDUALs were ALREADY prepared having been baptized.  

So YES, the Holy Spirit did come

BUT THAT does NOT negate the fact of  WE WILL FOLLOW TO BE WHERE HE IS.  

He comes to dwell with us when we are saved and WE GO TO DWELL WITH HIM when we NEVER DIE. 

 

Those who have NOT received the Gift, have not been saved/born again  have not had The Holy Spirit dwell within them, 

are dead.  And then they die and THE DEAD GO TO HELL, to the grave.  The DEAD STAY IN DEATH, in hades, in hell.  The DEAD remain DEAD until the DEAD are judged.  When are THE DEAD judged?   at the GWTJ.   So while they will be raised up out from THE DEAD, the grave, hell, hades, death when Christ returns, THE DEAD are NEVER GOING TO ASCEND to the throne of GOD.  NEVER.  


John 13/14 speaks NOT ONLY speaks of us following HIM where He appears to us and takes us to the Father, BUT also of His sending in the Holy Spirit to dwell with us.  

How follow after and send can be considered  the 'same thing' is beyond me.  
 

[DeighAnn]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:56 AM, AdHoc said:

In every single recorded resurrection, the same body was raised. The new body is called "spiritual" because the Holy Spirit builds it. It has the substance though of created man. It can be touched, it can walk and talk and it can eat. According to 1st Corinthians 15:23 and 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 our bodies are RAISED when Christ returns.

I do agree we will have a NEW BODY, and it will be a body of SUBSTANCE. 

AS for those who 'came out of the graves' and were seen by some, I would GO WITH WHAT IS WRITTEN and say they were in spiritual bodies...but that's just me going to those bible verses I like to refer to so much,  like they are the only truth that can be found.  


As for your comment 

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


Wouldn't your belief read more like

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a natural body made spiritual?   


Since I believe there IS a natural body and there IS a spiritual body and the natural body produces 'the seed' that God gives a body to and that IS the spiritual body

Wouldn't MY BELIEF read more like 

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.



There is NO WAY our GLORIFIED bodies will be made from the decaying sinful carcass our spirit/souls once 'lived' in.  The NIGHTMAREs this must produce.  

For that matter I don't believe our spiritual bodies will even be made of the dust of the 'corrupted earth' which would at least be somewhat more 'acceptable'. 

I believe we will be  just like the ANGELS IN HEAVEN,  not taking or giving in marriage because ALL souls were 'created long ago'.  

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.



As to your comment 'the same body was raised'

 that is the EXACT  OPPOSITE  OF

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Take ANY PLANT that PRODUCES A SEED. 

 PLANT THE PLANT

and plant the seed.  


WHAT produces a new plant and

WHAT becomes decay and dust?  


Do you really have GOD blowing life back into billions of sinful decaying carcasses?  

Hardly seems RIGHTEOUS to me.  

Taking a 'seed' and giving it a body as HE SEES FIT, I am all about that.  Where that 'substance' comes from IDK,  but I am willing to bet is it not decomp.  EVER smelled a dead body?  

Did you know that they weren't even ALLOWED to touch dead bodies.  And you have GOD re animating them?   

A single cell, a grain contains all of the DNA needed to 'reproduce' us   No NEED for 'a carcass' to be REANIMATED.  I would rather be 'spoken' into a new body than have this one be a part of the GLORIFIED one.  

GOD RE animating the decay of a decomposing carcasses.  I Thank GOD I can't even imagine such a thing.  


Quick question 
What do you think these sons of God were 'made' of, seeing THERE WAS NO EARTH  before THEY WATCHED IT being created. 

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I'll just bet THEY were 'spiritual' beings.  

[DeighAnn]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:56 AM, AdHoc said:

According to Acts 2:27-34 David did the same. His Tomb is still at Jerusalem. His spirit was "given up" (Eccl.3:21, 12:7) and he has not "ascended" from Hades.

HIS CARCASS is still there and will be until it goes back to dust.  His tomb may still be there and will be until it goes back to dust or is 'burned up' either way doesn't matter because HE ASCENDED to heaven, didn't need that carcass to do so.  So he did die.  His flesh was sown into the grave.  ALL that was 'raised up' was the BODY GOD GAVE TO THE SEED that sown flesh produced.  

Why are you quoting the OLD COVENANT like it is still in effect? 
It's last day has come and gone. 

He descended and preached the GOOD NEWS to those who had died UNDER THE LAW. And to all those of the NATIONS AND TONGUES who had lived up until then.

Those who BELIEVED and repented were WASHED CLEAN by the blood of the SACRIFICE, the Lamb without spot or blemish, slain for that very purpose. 
Their sins FORGIVEN meant 

No sin equals NO DEATH so that 
the graves were opened, and the captives were led away

and NEVER again would Satan bind a CHILD of GOD for any amount of time.  Death has no sting for one having been saved.  WHY don't we fear those who can kill the flesh?  BECAUSE we don't die in sin, we DIE UNDER GRACE which means it is just the outer shell that 'dies' and only it will be turning back to dust

and THAT has nothing to do with our living on and following the Lord and Saviour to WHERE HE IS and He is at the right hand of GOD and if He said that was Fathers house then that is good enough for me.  






 

[AdHoc]

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I do agree we will have a NEW BODY, and it will be a body of SUBSTANCE. 

AS for those who 'came out of the graves' and were seen by some, I would GO WITH WHAT IS WRITTEN and say they were in spiritual bodies...but that's just me going to those bible verses I like to refer to so much,  like they are the only truth that can be found.  


As for your comment 

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


Wouldn't your belief read more like

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a natural body made spiritual?   


Since I believe there IS a natural body and there IS a spiritual body and the natural body produces 'the seed' that God gives a body to and that IS the spiritual body

Wouldn't MY BELIEF read more like 

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.



There is NO WAY our GLORIFIED bodies will be made from the decaying sinful carcass our spirit/souls once 'lived' in.  The NIGHTMAREs this must produce.  

For that matter I don't believe our spiritual bodies will even be made of the dust of the 'corrupted earth' which would at least be somewhat more 'acceptable'. 

I believe we will be  just like the ANGELS IN HEAVEN,  not taking or giving in marriage because ALL souls were 'created long ago'.  

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.



As to your comment 'the same body was raised'

 that is the EXACT  OPPOSITE  OF

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Take ANY PLANT that PRODUCES A SEED. 

 PLANT THE PLANT

and plant the seed.  


WHAT produces a new plant and

WHAT becomes decay and dust?  


Do you really have GOD blowing life back into billions of sinful decaying carcasses?  

Hardly seems RIGHTEOUS to me.  

Taking a 'seed' and giving it a body as HE SEES FIT, I am all about that.  Where that 'substance' comes from IDK,  but I am willing to bet is it not decomp.  EVER smelled a dead body?  

Did you know that they weren't even ALLOWED to touch dead bodies.  And you have GOD re animating them?   

A single cell, a grain contains all of the DNA needed to 'reproduce' us   No NEED for 'a carcass' to be REANIMATED.  I would rather be 'spoken' into a new body than have this one be a part of the GLORIFIED one.  

GOD RE animating the decay of a decomposing carcasses.  I Thank GOD I can't even imagine such a thing.  


Quick question 
What do you think these sons of God were 'made' of, seeing THERE WAS NO EARTH  before THEY WATCHED IT being created. 

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I'll just bet THEY were 'spiritual' beings.  

Near where I live are the Rhein Falls. They are not to be compared to the Victoria falls or Niagara, but they are impressive. At the top of the cliff on the southern side is a castle and a tower to look over the falls. This tower has windows and the Swiss did a remarkable thing. The glass of these windows is colored like those of a Church. The end result of this is that by moving your head a little, you can have a yellow tinted waterfall, then a blue waterfall and then a red waterfall.

That is, your position colors your view to make the landscape a wrong color. If you were cut off from civilization from infancy and someone found you in the wilderness and read the Bible to you, you would never think that man's destiny was heaven. The doctrine of going to heaven when you die came from Nimrod because he worshiped the "heavenly host".

Nimrod's Babylonian system of belief was the system of belief in all six world powers - Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. In Matthew 13 our Lord Jesus told even parables. In two of them He predicted that His Kingdom, while still in mystery in this age, would be (1) sown with Tares - counterfeit Wheat, and (2) leavened by a woman until fully leavened. In 313 AD, the Pontifex Maximus, Constantine, embraced Christianity as a religion of Rome and used all the Christian terms for pagan beliefs. Over the years and centuries, Christianity adopted this fully and 95% of Christians celebrate Christmas and Easter KNOWING that they are feasts to the enemy of Christ. They couldn't care less as long as their cherished traditions are not upset.

So also with the doctrines. By the time of the Reformation Christian doctrine was so distorted that it could not be recognized as having its origin in the Bible. Going to heaven is one of those cherished superstitions that has no foundation in scripture. You are looking through a colored glass. Your confusion is not because the matter is confusing. Your confusion is because you have to force the matter to fit scriptures that don't address your doctrine. Not one of the scriptures you have proffered says that man goes to heaven. Even the word "hell" is a mistranslation of THREE different Greek words. But it is bandied about by 99% of Christians daily.

In 1982 I was shown the error of man going to heaven. I had believed this untenable doctrine for all my life up to then. It was like drug withdrawal. For months I agonized. But the grammar is the grammar and there is not a single scripture that pegs man's destiny as heaven. Man is God's instrument for THE EARTH (Gen.1:26-28). Corporate Man - the Church - is God's House. Jesus promised that His disciples would be, at a future date, where He (Jesus) was ALREADY. And He told where He was presently - IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN HIM. He had already, in John Chapter 2, declared that His Body was the House of God. The fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily. Our Lord Jesus' journey to prepare a place for His disciples was to set aside that which stopped them being God's ABODE already - the fiery sword of Eden and the curtain of the Temple.

I have traced for you Christ's journey. Death for men's sins, three days in Hades, RESURRECTION, ascent to His Father to present His blood as new High Priest and  a RETURN to breathe the Holy Spirit into His disciples. The journey is unambiguously described and the fact that the disciples became ABODES of God and ABODES IN GOD's HOUSE is well documented. The only problem is that you are looking at the matter through the tint of 1,500 years of Roman Catholic superstition.

If you are fervent for the truth, God will honor it and give you light. It might take a month, a year or a decade. Only you will know. If you refuse to be open to the evidence that has been presented, and hold grimly to Roman Tradition, you will be looking through a tinted window and never enjoy the freedom that the truth brings. The doctrine of going to heaven is very damaging. It annuls the resurrection. It annuls the Church as Christ's salt and light ON EARTH. It annuls the WEDDING that the Father has prepared for His Son. It removes God's authority from earth for which kingdom stands when the kings are absent? It annuls Christ's blood "that speaks better things than Abel's" for in the Babylonian system the earth has no future. There is no need for New Jerusalem. And if, as Isaiah 66 says, we are going to "look upon those in the Lake of Fire", why, the fallen and lost must also be in heaven (perish the thought).

Go through your proffered scriptures again, slowly, and see if even ONE says in plain language that man is destined for heaven. Then, go through the Bible and see if the focus is Christ, a Man, FOR THE EARTH.

God bless your journey.