Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[AdHoc]

39 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

HIS CARCASS is still there and will be until it goes back to dust.  His tomb may still be there and will be until it goes back to dust or is 'burned up' either way doesn't matter because HE ASCENDED to heaven, didn't need that carcass to do so.  So he did die.  His flesh was sown into the grave.  ALL that was 'raised up' was the BODY GOD GAVE TO THE SEED that sown flesh produced.  

Why are you quoting the OLD COVENANT like it is still in effect? 
It's last day has come and gone. 

He descended and preached the GOOD NEWS to those who had died UNDER THE LAW. And to all those of the NATIONS AND TONGUES who had lived up until then.

Those who BELIEVED and repented were WASHED CLEAN by the blood of the SACRIFICE, the Lamb without spot or blemish, slain for that very purpose. 
Their sins FORGIVEN meant 

No sin equals NO DEATH so that 
the graves were opened, and the captives were led away

and NEVER again would Satan bind a CHILD of GOD for any amount of time.  Death has no sting for one having been saved.  WHY don't we fear those who can kill the flesh?  BECAUSE we don't die in sin, we DIE UNDER GRACE which means it is just the outer shell that 'dies' and only it will be turning back to dust

and THAT has nothing to do with our living on and following the Lord and Saviour to WHERE HE IS and He is at the right hand of GOD and if He said that was Fathers house then that is good enough for me.  






 

Your skill with keyboard is remarkable. You can produce three postings while I do only one. It nearly 2 a.m. here so I'm off to bed, but let me shortly comment on the above posting. You have explained why David's body is still in the grave but that he has ascended to heaven. But not only does scripture say He "has not ascended", but you agree with the graves of the Old Testament saints being opened and them being bodily resurrected and seen in Jerusalem. Why not David too? Why have you two standards?

You vehemently defend your theory of some ethereal body of David ascending to heaven, but at the same time those resurrected shortly after Christ must have their graves opened and RISE out of the graves?

Good night sister ... and enjoy the rest of your evening.

[Marilyn C]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:37 AM, iamlamad said:

So far, no one has told me when they expect this passage to take place. WHEN will Jesus take us to the homes He has built?

Or will He expect us to find our home on our own?

Hi iamlamad,

God the Father ....`may send Jesus Christ, ...whom heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken about by the mouth of all His Holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

Note it is NOT ONLY RULERSHIP ON the earth that will be restored.

Marilyn.

[DeighAnn]

On 4/19/2022 at 5:02 PM, iamlamad said:

Yes, Jesus went to build homes for us, and one day will come and get us. It should be understood by the context that after He gets us, He will take us to the homes He has built. That is the way I read it.

When our life in the natural body ends, that BODY is sown and the Spritual body is raised to continue on living and to FOLLOW.  

Those who believe while they live never die.  So they go to the place of the LIVING GOD. A place 'the dead' can't go because

 

Luke 20:33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
 

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Those who DON'T believe go to the place of the DEAD because

They have NOT BEEN BORN FROM ABOVE so they have no place there

They have not received the gift of Salvation so they aren't saved FROM death

They are DEAD even before their bodies 'die' and not being made ALIVE,  don't go to heaven, like those who have been MADE ALIVE do.  

They weren't baptized so they didn't die with Christ so they aren't raised up with Him.  

They are 'of this world' and hell is their 'after' place, with the rest of the dead.

They were never made into NEW CREATURES.



Once upon a time GODS PEOPLE did go to hell because people are weak and couldn't follow Gods law and if you didn't then you had sin and if you died with a sin no matter how small, you died a sinner and the wages of sin was death.  


THEN JESUS came and brought in a BETTER way that made it possible that when you die with 'sin' not repented of,  YOU NO LONGER DIE A SINNER who has to pay the penalty, because you are counted worthy through HIS WORK and BY GRACE and not by your current condition when the natural body comes.  BUT GOD will not be mocked so there is a line.  SO at anytime we need to be READY because DEATH comes to every flesh body, just not to every soul,  but you sure don't want to be facing the  judgment seat of Christ while in the midst of some horrible sin.  

John 14 wasn't written for a 'final' generation but for ALL WHO COME TO FAITH WHILE LIVING.  

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The doctrine of going to heaven when you die came from Nimrod because he worshiped the "heavenly host".

HERE is what I know about Nimrod.  As you can see,  I have no idea if he worshipped 'the heavenly host' or not and had never even HEARD that till you just said it,  so while 'THAT INFORMATION' that obviously came from somewhere OTHER than the words of God may have influenced you, IT HAD NO EFFECT UPON ME.  

Genesis 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

Genesis 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.

Genesis 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

1 Chronicles 1:10 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be mighty upon the earth.

 

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Over the years and centuries, Christianity adopted this fully and 95% of Christians celebrate Christmas and Easter KNOWING

I KNOW NOTHING about any of this either, so it didn't cause any 'colors'. 

 

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your confusion is because you have to force the matter to fit scriptures that don't address your doctrine

How does my not agreeing with you make me confused ?   I am not the one FORCING anything, I am AGREEING with what is written WORD FOR WORD. THAT is not 'forcing' anything on my part. 


I go,  you follow to be where I am.  That is written, I believe it 

I go, you follow where I WENT and left, but you go and stay and not be where I am. 





 

I don't know anything about the Roman Catholic 1500 year history so how could that be 'tinting' anything?  

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But the grammar is the grammar and there is not a single scripture that pegs man's destiny as heaven. Man is God's instrument for THE EARTH (Gen.1:26-28). Corporate Man - the Church - is God's House. Jesus promised that His disciples would be, at a future date, where He (Jesus) was ALREADY. And He told where He was presently - IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN HIM. He had already, in John Chapter 2, declared that His Body was the House of God. The fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily. Our Lord Jesus' journey to prepare a place for His disciples was to set aside that which stopped them being God's ABODE already - the fiery sword of Eden and the curtain of the Temple.

would be where He was already?  

You have taken what is being spoken of in CHAPTER 2 and are applying it to an entirely different discussion in 14?  ONE is of the Spirit dwelling in us and the other is us dwelling in heaven. 

IF WE DON'T GO TO HEAVEN to KEEP ON WITH THE LIVING,

then were do we take THE HOLY SPIRIT that dwells within us when the natural body dies?  TO HELL?  Or do both we and the Holy Spirit cease to exist for AWHILE?

 

John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.


WHERE HE IS GOING NOT WHERE HE PRESENTLY IS. 

 

WHY WOULD THEY FOLLOW HIM TO WHERE HE PRESENTLY IS,  SINCE THEY ARE ALREADY PRESENTLY WHERE HE PRESENTLY IS. 

THAT MAKES NO SENSE.    


 

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

AGAIN, THE SUBJECT IS NOT ABOUT WHERE HE PRESENTLY IS BUT WHERE HE IS GOING 

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

WHERE IS THE FATHER?  WHERE IS HE GOING?  WHERE WOULD THEY BE FOLLOWING HIM TO?  
 

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

 

John 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

John 16:6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 16:17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?

John 16:18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

 

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

 

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

John 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

 

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

 

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

 

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

 

 

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

I guess from the emoji that we are reaching the end of arguments. I'm just going to take one verse you posted and made red to emphasize it (I assume). I judge that you are well versed in English. So you will know that "where I am" means where our Lord was as he spoke. His geographical position was not heaven but earth. His spiritual position was IN the Father a the Father IN Him. That is the grammar of 14:10 and :20.

It does not read "be with me where I will be". That is what you have avoided in all your arguments about us going to heaven - the grammar. Our Lord's journey to prepare the "abodes" and His prayer about the POSITION of His disciples was to get His disciples WHERE HE WAS AS HE SPOKE THESE WORDS. It was not to get His disciples to heaven. That is where He would be LATER.

I think that there is not much more to be said. 

[Cntrysner]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I guess from the emoji that we are reaching the end of arguments. I'm just going to take one verse you posted and made red to emphasize it (I assume). I judge that you are well versed in English. So you will know that "where I am" means where our Lord was as he spoke. His geographical position was not heaven but earth. His spiritual position was IN the Father a the Father IN Him. That is the grammar of 14:10 and :20.

It does not read "be with me where I will be". That is what you have avoided in all your arguments about us going to heaven - the grammar. Our Lord's journey to prepare the "abodes" and His prayer about the POSITION of His disciples was to get His disciples WHERE HE WAS AS HE SPOKE THESE WORDS. It was not to get His disciples to heaven. That is where He would be LATER.

I think that there is not much more to be said. 

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This glory is the essence of God the Father who we know is a consuming fire. 

Joh 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The “where I am” is where they can behold the full glory of Christ and that glory is with the Father. Ascension in a Spiritual (celestial) body is the way to the Father. 
 

[Cntrysner]

19 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The doctrine of going to heaven when you die came from Nimrod because he worshiped the "heavenly host".

"This perversion ( worshiping stars and planets the heavenly host) led to Pantheism, the belief that Nature and God are in essence the same, and Polytheism, the religious system which establishes multiple gods".

Nimrod's perversion had nothing to do with going to heaven to be with our Father, Nimrod sought to overthrow God.

 You aren't realistic and continuely fail to notice negitive things in your view as do those that wear rose colored glasses. 

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This glory is the essence of God the Father who we know is a consuming fire. 

Joh 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The “where I am” is where they can behold the full glory of Christ and that glory is with the Father. Ascension in a Spiritual (celestial) body is the way to the Father. 
 

No. The word "glory" means "made apparent" or "manifested". It denotes an opinion or estimation.

And again, No to your last paragraph. You (i) did not answer my proofs, and (ii) pointedly avoided our Lord's definition of where he was (present tense), in John 14:10 and 14:20, and the context supplied by 14:23;

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him

The context is the Father's House and the many "abodes". Added to this, this section of John is about the Father coming to us, NOT us going to the Father. The phrase "where I am" means "where the Lord was at that moment of speaking".

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

"This perversion ( worshiping stars and planets the heavenly host) led to Pantheism, the belief that Nature and God are in essence the same, and Polytheism, the religious system which establishes multiple gods".

Nimrod's perversion had nothing to do with going to heaven to be with our Father, Nimrod sought to overthrow God.

 You aren't realistic and continuely fail to notice negitive things in your view as do those that wear rose colored glasses. 

Your opinion is noted. I think that there is too little evidence to discuss Nimrod.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The phrase "where I am" means "where the Lord was at that moment of speaking".

They ALREADY were "where I am" when He said it, so that makes no sense either in that respect   And
IF after 3 1/2 years of walking WITH HIM they weren't???

Just another thing to add to the list of 'what makes me wonder'

and  how ANYONE, EVER, could possibly BELIEVE, 
that 
THOSE who SEE the 'pre trib rapture of the 'church' (??)  would EVER have enough time to come to knowledge and wisdom and love enough with 'having but 2 witnesses left on the earth' to make a stand and to overcome and endure to the end???