Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[luigi]

49 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You did a good job here, Roy!

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

In Revelation 12, we have the entire life of Christ on earth in one verse.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Did Jesus go back to heaven? Many SAW Him leave. Two angels then said He would return in the same way. He has been in heaven ever since. This was a physical ascension.

I believe John 14 will be the same. The church will be taken to heaven. From other verses it would seem to fit with 1 Thes. 4: we are caught up and changed, then escorted to heaven where Jesus will show us the homes he has build for us -AND to wait out the time of God's wrath on earth.

I started this thread because I have several pre-wrath books, and none of them mention this John 14 verse.

We all know the Lord went back to heaven;......so is Revelation 12 a retelling of history with Jesus' birth and resurrection, or is it prophesy? According to Revelation 4:1, all events to be shown John in following chapters are forthcoming.

The metaphorical travailing woman paining to bring forth in Revelation 12 is therefore not Mary, but is the body of Christ during these end times who are waiting to be spiritually caught up and be like Christ. 

And yes the church will be escorted to heaven, which is the kingdom of God/heaven within us, whether in this body or without.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Edited October 4, 2022 by luigi

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

 

We all know the Lord went back to heaven;......so is Revelation 12 a retelling of history with Jesus' birth and resurrection, or is it prophesy? According to Revelation 4:1, all events to be shown John in following chapters are forthcoming.

The metaphorical travailing woman paining to bring forth in Revelation 12 is therefore not Mary, but is the body of Christ during these end times who are waiting to be spiritually caught up and be like Christ. 

And yes the church will be escorted to heaven, which is the kingdom of God/heaven within us, whether in this body or without.

 

I can only tell you what Jesus told me. Once He gave me a synopsis of chapter 12.

"This chapter was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular, about what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns."

I carefully counted, 32 times, and told Him. Then He said,

"I also chose to show John what the dragon did, when I was a young boy. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

I heard His voice and His words. He sent me to chapter 12, because He wanted me to get "history lesson." (Not all of Revelation is future.) I was thinking future in trying to understand chapters 4 & 5, but God and John were thinking "history."

If you wish to wait until the Holy City comes down, on the new heaven and earth, I guess you can. But the church is going to heaven (where God dwells and where He has been seen seated on His throne [Isaiah and Ezekiel) and it is going to be before any part of the 70th week.

John saw and wrote, first of the Constellation Virgo and what that constellation looked like where Jesus was born. The Constellation is to represent a Virgin giving birth. Verse 2 talks about her birth pains. That would be Mary - a specific subset of Israel. The 12 stars on Virgo's crown represents the 12 tribes of Israel, from which the Messiah would come.

Verse 3: God introduces John to the devil, the dragon.

Verse 4: Starts with Satan's fall from heaven, when He persuaded 1/3 of the angels to follow him. Then how He used King Herod to try and kill the boy Jesus while He was very young.

Verse 5 is the entire life of Jesus from birth to being caught up into heaven.

This is the primary meaning. As Jesus said, "I CHOSE to show John..." 

These 5 verses were a 'history lesson" for John, for Jesus was older then John and was born before John was born.

If there is a secondary meaning about the church, I know nothing about that. I doubt if there is. Jesus told me His primary meaning.

[luigi]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I can only tell you what Jesus told me. Once He gave me a synopsis of chapter 12.

"This chapter was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular, about what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns."

I carefully counted, 32 times, and told Him. Then He said,

"I also chose to show John what the dragon did, when I was a young boy. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

I heard His voice and His words. He sent me to chapter 12, because He wanted me to get "history lesson." (Not all of Revelation is future.) I was thinking future in trying to understand chapters 4 & 5, but God and John were thinking "history."

If you wish to wait until the Holy City comes down, on the new heaven and earth, I guess you can. But the church is going to heaven (where God dwells and where He has been seen seated on His throne [Isaiah and Ezekiel) and it is going to be before any part of the 70th week.

John saw and wrote, first of the Constellation Virgo and what that constellation looked like where Jesus was born. The Constellation is to represent a Virgin giving birth. Verse 2 talks about her birth pains. That would be Mary - a specific subset of Israel. The 12 stars on Virgo's crown represents the 12 tribes of Israel, from which the Messiah would come.

Verse 3: God introduces John to the devil, the dragon.

Verse 4: Starts with Satan's fall from heaven, when He persuaded 1/3 of the angels to follow him. Then how He used King Herod to try and kill the boy Jesus while He was very young.

Verse 5 is the entire life of Jesus from birth to being caught up into heaven.

This is the primary meaning. As Jesus said, "I CHOSE to show John..." 

These 5 verses were a 'history lesson" for John, for Jesus was older then John and was born before John was born.

If there is a secondary meaning about the church, I know nothing about that. I doubt if there is. Jesus told me His primary meaning.

I believe Gods Word that tells John the events he is to be shown after Revelation 4:1 are forthcoming events, and therefore not a historical recounting. 

If the voice you heard giving you an explanation of Revelation 12 contradicts the written Word, I'd be concerned being deceived by Satan, as the whole world is.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I believe John 14 will be the same. The church will be taken to heaven. From other verses it would seem to fit with 1 Thes. 4: we are caught up and changed, then escorted to heaven where Jesus will show us the homes he has build for us -AND to wait out the time of God's wrath on earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

God is bringing with HIM 'them'

What is the REQUIREMENT for 'them' to be BROUGHT BACK with Him? 

They had to have FOLLOWED HIM THERE, to be where HE WAS. 

How did HE get to where He was?  HE WAS RESURRECTED.  How did 'them' get to where He was?  They were resurrected. 

Was His 'RESURRECTION of a 'SPIRIT' part of His person ONLY

or

was HIS resurrection of the whole person
aka
SPIRITUAL BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT? 


So who is being BROUGHT BACK when Jesus returns?  THE SAVED, those  who are dead in this world,  but having been quickened in the spirit have followed Him in resurrection and are just as alive and living in Heaven as the Lord Jesus Christ and the FATHER the Lord God Almighty.

So, who are THEM returning with Him?  those who have died and been resurrected.

How did 'THEM' get to BE where JESUS WAS?  They followed after Him


(He has been and will be  at the right hand of God until his enemies are made His footstool AKA SATAN and angels cast out of heaven down to the earth would make His enemies HIS FOOTSTOOL and NOTHING short of that would)

 

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Those who are DON'T STOP those who have died from FOLLOWING HIM IN RESURRECTION.   

 

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

those 'dead in Christ' , I BELIEVE would have to be the 2 witnesses because 'corruption doesn't inherit incorruption' and everyone who is dead and buried is in corruption so can't be raised up to immortality.  ('though will not let my soul suffer corruption')
 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

PROVING NO 'OUT FROM THE DEAD bodies' will be resurrected to go meet the Lord in the air.  

 

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

EVEN a spiritual body can be mortal  fear not him that kills the body 1st death but fear Him that kills both body and soul 2nd death


SO as you can CLEARLY SEE it is NOT 'the church as A WHOLE' but it is the 'church' one by one, ALL IN THEIR OWN ORDER.  

You see, there is no way that A UNIT would be raised up because EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be judged, and every single person will get what they deserve and every single person is treated the same and there is no great wrath that Gods word won't protect us from.  

Not to mention the 'theory' has the RAPTURED CHURCH in heaven BEFORE THE LAMB SLAIN making it impossible for Rev 4 and 5 to have anything to do with a raptured church because that would put the church in heaven before a church was started.  

 

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, luigi said:

 

We all know the Lord went back to heaven;......so is Revelation 12 a retelling of history with Jesus' birth and resurrection, or is it prophesy? According to Revelation 4:1, all events to be shown John in following chapters are forthcoming.

The metaphorical travailing woman paining to bring forth in Revelation 12 is therefore not Mary, but is the body of Christ during these end times who are waiting to be spiritually caught up and be like Christ. 

And yes the church will be escorted to heaven, which is the kingdom of God/heaven within us, whether in this body or without.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

All enemies made His footstool.  Meaning only AFTER Satan cast down would Jesus be free to come to the earth.  

[Retrobyter]

On 10/3/2022 at 9:08 AM, luigi said:

In the bible there are three areas in which being caught up appear. The first is in 2 Corinthians 12:2 & 4 where an individual who had been caught up to heaven, relates his experience to Paul on earth. The second is in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where those who are still alive after certain end time events, are caught up to the Lord. And the third is in Revelation 12:5 where a woman who had been travailing with child, brings forth a man child who is caught up to heaven, and whom we see the dragon making war with on the earth in Revelation 12:17.

With those in 2 Corinthians and Revelation 12 still physically on the earth after being caught up to God in heaven; the remnant who are still alive and caught up in 1 Thessalonians I recognize also being a spiritual ascension to Christ and heaven.

The remaining survivors who are caught up spiritually to the Lord while still physically on the earth explains how the Lord will through His saints rule the earth with His rod of Iron.

Micah 5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

Shalom, luigi.

I'm not going to say that you said anything wrong. In what English-speaking Christians receive, you said everything correctly.

However, I'd like you to look at something. I'm just going to give you the Greek of each of these three passages and two definitions. See if you can tell what I believe from them:

Pros Korinthious B 12:1-4

1 Καυχᾶσθαι δὴ οὐ συμφέρει μοι· ἐλεύσομαι γὰρ εἰς ὀπτασίας καὶ ἀποκαλύψεις Κυρίου.
2 οἶδα ἄνθρωπον ἐν Χριστῷ πρὸ ἐτῶν δεκατεσσάρων εἴτε ἐν σώματι οὐκ οἶδα· εἴτε ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος οὐκ οἶδα, ὁ Θεὸς οἶδεν, ἁρπαγέντα τὸν τοιοῦτον ἕως τρίτου οὐρανοῦ.
3 καὶ οἶδα τὸν τοιοῦτον ἄνθρωπον εἴτε ἐν σώματι, εἴτε ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος, οὐκ οἶδα· ὁ Θεὸς οἶδεν
4 ὅτι ἡρπάγη εἰς τὸν παράδεισον, καὶ ἤκουσεν ἄρρητα ῥήματα, ἃ οὐκ ἐξὸν ἀνθρώπῳ λαλῆσαι.

Transliterated into English lettering:

1 Kauchasthai dee ou sumferei moi; eleusomai gar eis optasias kai apokalupseis Kuriou.
2 oida anthroopon en Christoo pro etoon dekatessaroon eite en soomati ouk oida; eite ektos tou soomatos ouk oida, ho Theos oiden, harpagenta ton toiouton heoos tritou ouranou.
3 kai oida ton toiouton anthroopon eite en soomati, eite ektos tou soomatos, ouk oida; ho Theos oiden
4 hoti heerpagee eis ton paradeison, kai eekousen arreeta hreemata, ha ouk exon anthroopoo laleesai.

 

Pros Thessalonikious A 4:13-17

13 Οὐ θέλω δὲ ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν, ἀδελφοί, περὶ τῶν κεκοιμημένων, ἵνα μὴ λυπῆσθε, καθὼς καὶ οἱ λοιποὶ οἱ μὴ ἔχοντες ἐλπίδα.
14 εἰ γὰρ πιστεύομεν ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἀπέθανε καὶ ἀνέστη, οὕτω καὶ ὁ Θεὸς τοὺς κοιμηθέντας διὰ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἄξει σὺν αὐτῷ.
15 τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ Κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ Κυρίου, οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας.
16 ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ Κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου, καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι Θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ, ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον·
17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι, ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ Κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτω πάντοτε σὺν Κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα.

Transliterated into English lettering:

13 Ou theloo de humas agnoein, adelfoi, peri toon kekoimeemenoon, hina mee lupeesthe, kathoos kai hoi loipoi hoi mee echontes elpida.
14 ei gar pisteuomen hoti Ieesous apethane kai anestee, outoo kai ho Theos tous koimeethentas dia tou Ieesou axei sun autoo.
15 touto gar humin legomen en logoo Kuriou, hoti heemeis hoi zoontes hoi perileipomenoi eis teen parousian tou Kuriou, ou mee fthasoomen tous koimeethentas.
16 hoti autos ho Kurios en keleusmati, en foonee archaggelou, kai en salpiggi Theou, katabeesetai ap' ouranou, kai hoi nekroi en Christoo, anasteesontai prooton;
17 epeita heemeis hoi zoontes hoi perileipomenoi, hama sun autois harpageesometha en nefelais eis apanteesin tou Kuriou eis aera; kai houtoo pantote sun Kurioo esometha.

 

Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ 12:5, 17

5 καὶ ἔτεκεν υἱόν, ἄρρενα, ὃς μέλλει ποιμαίνειν πάντα τὰ ἔθνη ἐν ῥάβδῳ σιδηρᾷ· καὶ ἡρπάσθη τὸ τέκνον αὐτῆς πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν καὶ τὸν θρόνον αὐτοῦ.
...

17 καὶ ὠργίσθη ὁ δράκων ἐπὶ τῇ γυναικί, καὶ ἀπῆλθε ποιῆσαι πόλεμον μετὰ τῶν λοιπῶν τοῦ σπέρματος αὐτῆς, τῶν τηρούντων τὰς ἐντολὰς τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ ἐχόντων τὴν μαρτυρίαν τοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

Transliterated into English lettering:

5 kai eteken huion, arrena, hos mellei poimainein panta ta ethnee en hrabdoo sideeraa; kai heerpasthee to teknon autees pros ton Theon kai ton thronon autou.
...

17 kai oorgisthee ho drakoon epi tee gunaiki, kai apeelthe poieesai polemon meta toon loipoon tou spermatos autees, toon teerountoon tas entolas tou Theou kai echontoon teen marturian tou Ieesou Christou.

Now here are the definitions:

3772 ouranos οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):
-- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

726 harpazoo (harpazo) ἁρπάζω (har-pad'-zo). From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications):
-- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

I'm also going to give you this fact: the word "ἁρπάζω" has no prefix, suffix, or component that means "up."

And, one more ENGLISH definition:

heav·en  | ˈ'hev(ə)n | 

noun 

1 a place regarded in various religions as the abode of God (or the gods) and the angels, and of the good after death, often traditionally depicted as being above the sky: those who practiced good deeds would receive the reward of a place in heaven | Juno, Queen of Heaven and wife of Jupiter. 

• God (or the gods): Constantine was persuaded that disunity in the Church was displeasing to heaven. 

• Theology a state of being eternally in the presence of God after death: the everlasting happiness with God that we call heaven. 

• used in various exclamations as a substitute for “God”: heaven knows! | good heavens! 

2 (often heavens) literary the sky, especially perceived as a vault in which the sun, moon, stars, and planets are situated: Galileo used a telescope to observe the heavens. 

3 informal a place, state, or experience of supreme bliss: lying by the pool with a good book is my idea of heaven. 

PHRASES 

the heavens open 
it suddenly starts to rain heavily. 

in seventh heaven 
in a state of ecstasy: he was in seventh heaven, so excited. 

a match made in heaven (also a marriage made in heaven) 
a relationship or pairing where each member perfectly complements the other: you and your guy are a match made in heaven | the balance of music and writing skills is definitely a marriage made in heaven. 

move heaven and earth to do something 
make extraordinary efforts to do a specified thing: if he had truly loved her he would have moved heaven and earth to get her back. 

stink to high heaven (also smell to high heaven) 
have a very strong and unpleasant odor: the quayside stank to high heaven of salt fish. 

ORIGIN 

Old English heofon, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch hemel and German Himmel.

May God bless your thinking.

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, luigi said:

 

We all know the Lord went back to heaven;......so is Revelation 12 a retelling of history with Jesus' birth and resurrection, or is it prophesy? According to Revelation 4:1, all events to be shown John in following chapters are forthcoming.

The metaphorical travailing woman paining to bring forth in Revelation 12 is therefore not Mary, but is the body of Christ during these end times who are waiting to be spiritually caught up and be like Christ. 

And yes the church will be escorted to heaven, which is the kingdom of God/heaven within us, whether in this body or without.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Shalom, luigi.

Friend, you really need to understand the CONTEXT of Luke 17:21! Look at the WHOLE, related passage:

Luke 17:20-30 (KJV)

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say,

"'Lo here!'

"or,

"'lo there!'

"for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you!"

22 And he said unto the disciples,

"The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you,

"'See here!';

"or,

"'see there!':

"go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 

26 "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 

28 "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 

30 "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. ..."

The last Greek sentence of verse 21 is "Idou gar hee basileia tou Theou entos humoon estin." This translates word-for-word to "Behold for the kingdom of-the God in-the-middle of-you (plural) is." If we put this into modern English words, we get: "for ... LOOK! ... the kingdom of God is in the middle of you-all! (or you-guys, if you prefer)" Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) would NOT be saying TO THE PHARISEES "the Kingdom of God is within you!" He was telling them that, THAT DAY, the Kingdom of God was in the middle of all of them! How? Because the KING was in the middle of all of these Pharisees! When they had the King present, the Kingdom could have been present also, PROVIDED, of course, if the persons would submit to the King!

Then, He turned to His disciples and warned them, "The time will come when you will wish to see one of the days of the Son of man (the King), but you won't see it." He went on to say that they were not to believe people who said, "See, here He is!" or "See, there He is!" For, when the Son of man actually comes, there will be NO DOUBT that it is Him, just like trees and buildings on one side of your view is lit up by the lightning that flashes under the other side of the sky! Then, He added, "first, (the Son of man) must endure many things and be rejected by this generation," referring to the PHARISEES as that generation!

Now, Revelation 12:10 is NOT talking about "a scene in Heaven," as if there were such a place. This is a DIRECT RESULT of Revelation 11:15-19!

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven (Greek: foonai megalai en too ouranoo = "voices loud in the sky"), saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever!"

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (Greek: , and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

In order for "the kingdoms of the world" to "become the kingdoms of YHWH and of His Messiah," He would have to TAKE POSSESSION of those kingdoms! This YHWH will do through His Messiah, Yeeshuwa`, by making Him King of Israel and a King of kings - an Emperor. So, when we get to chapter 12, He must already be enthroned in Israel.

So, when we read,

Revelation 12:7-12 (KJV)

7 And there was war in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo ="in the sky"): Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky"). 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth (Greek: eis teen geen = "into the earth/land/ground"), and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky"),

"Now is come salvation (Greek: sooteeria = "rescue; deliverance"), and strength (Greek: dunamis = "dynamic-power"), and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (Greek: hee exousia tou Christou autou = "the authority of-the Messiah of-Him"): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Yeeshuwa` the Messiah is ALREADY back on the earth and reigning!

[Retrobyter]

On 10/4/2022 at 3:27 PM, DeighAnn said:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

God is bringing with HIM 'them'

What is the REQUIREMENT for 'them' to be BROUGHT BACK with Him? 

They had to have FOLLOWED HIM THERE, to be where HE WAS. 

How did HE get to where He was?  HE WAS RESURRECTED.  How did 'them' get to where He was?  They were resurrected. 

Was His 'RESURRECTION of a 'SPIRIT' part of His person ONLY

or

was HIS resurrection of the whole person
aka
SPIRITUAL BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT? 


So who is being BROUGHT BACK when Jesus returns?  THE SAVED, those  who are dead in this world,  but having been quickened in the spirit have followed Him in resurrection and are just as alive and living in Heaven as the Lord Jesus Christ and the FATHER the Lord God Almighty.

So, who are THEM returning with Him?  those who have died and been resurrected.

How did 'THEM' get to BE where JESUS WAS?  They followed after Him


(He has been and will be  at the right hand of God until his enemies are made His footstool AKA SATAN and angels cast out of heaven down to the earth would make His enemies HIS FOOTSTOOL and NOTHING short of that would)

 

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Those who are DON'T STOP those who have died from FOLLOWING HIM IN RESURRECTION.   

 

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

those 'dead in Christ' , I BELIEVE would have to be the 2 witnesses because 'corruption doesn't inherit incorruption' and everyone who is dead and buried is in corruption so can't be raised up to immortality.  ('though will not let my soul suffer corruption')
 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

PROVING NO 'OUT FROM THE DEAD bodies' will be resurrected to go meet the Lord in the air.  

 

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

EVEN a spiritual body can be mortal  fear not him that kills the body 1st death but fear Him that kills both body and soul 2nd death


SO as you can CLEARLY SEE it is NOT 'the church as A WHOLE' but it is the 'church' one by one, ALL IN THEIR OWN ORDER.  

You see, there is no way that A UNIT would be raised up because EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be judged, and every single person will get what they deserve and every single person is treated the same and there is no great wrath that Gods word won't protect us from.  

Not to mention the 'theory' has the RAPTURED CHURCH in heaven BEFORE THE LAMB SLAIN making it impossible for Rev 4 and 5 to have anything to do with a raptured church because that would put the church in heaven before a church was started.  

 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

One is NOT resurrected as a "spiritual body/soul/spirit in Heaven!" One is resurrected when the Lord Yeeshuwa` RETURNS to earth and His loved ones are PHYSICALLY resurrected IN THEIR HUMAN BODIES right here on this earth!

You're working too hard at this theory of yours! WE AS PHYSICAL BODIES ARE RAISED TO NEWNESS OF LIFE!

[iamlamad]

On 10/4/2022 at 2:27 PM, DeighAnn said:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

God is bringing with HIM 'them'

What is the REQUIREMENT for 'them' to be BROUGHT BACK with Him? 

They had to have FOLLOWED HIM THERE, to be where HE WAS. 

How did HE get to where He was?  HE WAS RESURRECTED.  How did 'them' get to where He was?  They were resurrected. 

Was His 'RESURRECTION of a 'SPIRIT' part of His person ONLY

or

was HIS resurrection of the whole person
aka
SPIRITUAL BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT? 


So who is being BROUGHT BACK when Jesus returns?  THE SAVED, those  who are dead in this world,  but having been quickened in the spirit have followed Him in resurrection and are just as alive and living in Heaven as the Lord Jesus Christ and the FATHER the Lord God Almighty.

So, who are THEM returning with Him?  those who have died and been resurrected.

How did 'THEM' get to BE where JESUS WAS?  They followed after Him


(He has been and will be  at the right hand of God until his enemies are made His footstool AKA SATAN and angels cast out of heaven down to the earth would make His enemies HIS FOOTSTOOL and NOTHING short of that would)

 

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Those who are DON'T STOP those who have died from FOLLOWING HIM IN RESURRECTION.   

 

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

those 'dead in Christ' , I BELIEVE would have to be the 2 witnesses because 'corruption doesn't inherit incorruption' and everyone who is dead and buried is in corruption so can't be raised up to immortality.  ('though will not let my soul suffer corruption')
 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

PROVING NO 'OUT FROM THE DEAD bodies' will be resurrected to go meet the Lord in the air.  

 

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

EVEN a spiritual body can be mortal  fear not him that kills the body 1st death but fear Him that kills both body and soul 2nd death


SO as you can CLEARLY SEE it is NOT 'the church as A WHOLE' but it is the 'church' one by one, ALL IN THEIR OWN ORDER.  

You see, there is no way that A UNIT would be raised up because EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be judged, and every single person will get what they deserve and every single person is treated the same and there is no great wrath that Gods word won't protect us from.  

Not to mention the 'theory' has the RAPTURED CHURCH in heaven BEFORE THE LAMB SLAIN making it impossible for Rev 4 and 5 to have anything to do with a raptured church because that would put the church in heaven before a church was started.  

 

How could anyone miss the intent of scripture as this post indicates? 

Quote

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

God is bringing with HIM 'them'

What is the REQUIREMENT for 'them' to be BROUGHT BACK with Him? 

They had to have FOLLOWED HIM THERE, to be where HE WAS. 

How did HE get to where He was?  HE WAS RESURRECTED.  How did 'them' get to where He was?  They were resurrected. 

 

How did THEM get to where He IS? They DIED! After DEATH (Physical death) their spirit ascended just as Paul wrote - to be absent from your physical body (it died) is to be present with the LORD. HOW? Angels escort the spirit with the soul of the dead person up to heaven. They are they - all the dead in Christ - WITHOUT a resurrection body. That must wait for resurrection day.

On that day, Jesus will bring all those who have passed through physical death WITH HIM so they can once again have a BODY - in this case, their resurrection body. God will bring togther the DUST that once formed those decayed bodies, REFORM them, RAISE them, CHANGE them into resurrection bodies, and then their life force, their SPIRITS (with the souls) will JOIN with their OWN body, now resurrected, and fly up into the air to meet Jesus in the air and in the clouds.

On the other hand, for those that are alive when Jesus comes, their spirit is already in their body, so they just get raised and changed, and then, TOGETHER with the Dead in Christ now raised, all together THE CHURCH - the BRIDE of Christ, will rise up to meet Him in the air. (Did you ever sing or hear the song, "the Meeting in the Air?) Then we will forever be with the Lord.

Since this will all happen PRETRIB, we go to heaven WITH Him, and will wait out the time of God's wrath on earth. AFter the OT saints arrive (They will be raised on the last day) the marriage and supper will take place, in heaven. Then, all the saints and all the angels return to earth WITH CHRIST to Armageddon.

See how simple this is - if we just read and believe what we read?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, luigi.

Friend, you really need to understand the CONTEXT of Luke 17:21! Look at the WHOLE, related passage:

Luke 17:20-30 (KJV)

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say,

"'Lo here!'

"or,

"'lo there!'

"for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you!"

22 And he said unto the disciples,

"The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you,

"'See here!';

"or,

"'see there!':

"go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 

26 "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 

28 "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 

30 "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. ..."

The last Greek sentence of verse 21 is "Idou gar hee basileia tou Theou entos humoon estin." This translates word-for-word to "Behold for the kingdom of-the God in-the-middle of-you (plural) is." If we put this into modern English words, we get: "for ... LOOK! ... the kingdom of God is in the middle of you-all! (or you-guys, if you prefer)" Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) would NOT be saying TO THE PHARISEES "the Kingdom of God is within you!" He was telling them that, THAT DAY, the Kingdom of God was in the middle of all of them! How? Because the KING was in the middle of all of these Pharisees! When they had the King present, the Kingdom could have been present also, PROVIDED, of course, if the persons would submit to the King!

Then, He turned to His disciples and warned them, "The time will come when you will wish to see one of the days of the Son of man (the King), but you won't see it." He went on to say that they were not to believe people who said, "See, here He is!" or "See, there He is!" For, when the Son of man actually comes, there will be NO DOUBT that it is Him, just like trees and buildings on one side of your view is lit up by the lightning that flashes under the other side of the sky! Then, He added, "first, (the Son of man) must endure many things and be rejected by this generation," referring to the PHARISEES as that generation!

Now, Revelation 12:10 is NOT talking about "a scene in Heaven," as if there were such a place. This is a DIRECT RESULT of Revelation 11:15-19!

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven (Greek: foonai megalai en too ouranoo = "voices loud in the sky"), saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever!"

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (Greek: , and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

In order for "the kingdoms of the world" to "become the kingdoms of YHWH and of His Messiah," He would have to TAKE POSSESSION of those kingdoms! This YHWH will do through His Messiah, Yeeshuwa`, by making Him King of Israel and a King of kings - an Emperor. So, when we get to chapter 12, He must already be enthroned in Israel.

So, when we read,

Revelation 12:7-12 (KJV)

7 And there was war in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo ="in the sky"): Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky"). 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth (Greek: eis teen geen = "into the earth/land/ground"), and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky"),

"Now is come salvation (Greek: sooteeria = "rescue; deliverance"), and strength (Greek: dunamis = "dynamic-power"), and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (Greek: hee exousia tou Christou autou = "the authority of-the Messiah of-Him"): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Yeeshuwa` the Messiah is ALREADY back on the earth and reigning!

Quote

In order for "the kingdoms of the world" to "become the kingdoms of YHWH and of His Messiah," He would have to TAKE POSSESSION of those kingdoms! This YHWH will do through His Messiah, Yeeshuwa`, by making Him King of Israel and a King of kings - an Emperor. So, when we get to chapter 12, He must already be enthroned in Israel.

Sorry, friend, but you missed it here. At a property closing, property LEGALLY changes ownership, but no one has "possessed" the property yet. The passage in Rev. 11 is only showing us a legal closing on property EARTH. The devil lost his position as god of this world, and the world was given back to its original owner, GOD.

If we just follow along with John in His narrative, the 42 months of authority are DELEGATED to the Beast by God. (The Beast cannot just "take" those months.) So all the events in Revelation chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 MUST and will take place before Christ returns to earth. Did you forget what Luke wrote in Acts?

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

The scriptures show Jesus REMAINING in heaven until the 70th week has FINISHED and then until after the marriage and supper.