Interesting passage gives insights into Predestination and Foreknowledge

[George]

Shalom everyone,

I thought I'd share a piece of Scripture the Lord showed me recently that really helped me understand predestination and foreknowledge ... or at least give me a better understanding.

1Sa 23:1  Now they told David, “Behold, the Philistines are fighting against Keilah and are robbing the threshing floors.” 

1Sa 23:2  Therefore David inquired of the LORD, “Shall I go and attack these Philistines?” And the LORD said to David, “Go and attack the Philistines and save Keilah.” 

1Sa 23:3  But David's men said to him, “Behold, we are afraid here in Judah; how much more then if we go to Keilah against the armies of the Philistines?” 

1Sa 23:4  Then David inquired of the LORD again. And the LORD answered him, “Arise, go down to Keilah, for I will give the Philistines into your hand.” 

1Sa 23:5  And David and his men went to Keilah and fought with the Philistines and brought away their livestock and struck them with a great blow. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah. 

So David goes after getting confirmation from the Lord to destroy the Palestinians in Keilah.  Let's continue the story ...

1Sa 23:6  When Abiathar the son of Ahimelech had fled to David to Keilah, he had come down with an ephod in his hand. 

1Sa 23:7  Now it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah. And Saul said, “God has given him into my hand, for he has shut himself in by entering a town that has gates and bars.” 

1Sa 23:8  And Saul summoned all the people to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men. 

1Sa 23:9  David knew that Saul was plotting harm against him. And he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod here.” 

1Sa 23:10  Then David said, “O LORD, the God of Israel, your servant has surely heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah, to destroy the city on my account. 

1Sa 23:11  Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, the God of Israel, please tell your servant.” And the LORD said, “He will come down.” 

1Sa 23:12  Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the LORD said, “They will surrender you.” 

1Sa 23:13  Then David and his men, who were about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the expedition. 

Now think about it ... this passage clearly shows that divine foreknowledge that God had was used by David ... and also shows that foreknowledge did not necessitate predestination.

God foreknew what Saul and the leaders of Keilah would do, however this did NOT happen!  Basically, God saw the possibility of what would take place, but this foreknowledge did not predestinate the outcome.

Basically this passage revealed to me ... that predestination and foreknowledge are indeed different.

I thought I'd throw that out there ... as a talking point!  

What do you all think?

[enoob57]

yes excellent point and I have placed it in the arsenal of refutation... that is one of the main tenants of  TULIP and will enjoy this conversation  

[Walter and Deborah]

4-20-22, Interesting point, well said.

Love, Walter

[angels4u]

1 hour ago, George said:

Shalom everyone,

I thought I'd share a piece of Scripture the Lord showed me recently that really helped me understand predestination and foreknowledge ... or at least give me a better understanding.

1Sa 23:1  Now they told David, “Behold, the Philistines are fighting against Keilah and are robbing the threshing floors.” 

1Sa 23:2  Therefore David inquired of the LORD, “Shall I go and attack these Philistines?” And the LORD said to David, “Go and attack the Philistines and save Keilah.” 

1Sa 23:3  But David's men said to him, “Behold, we are afraid here in Judah; how much more then if we go to Keilah against the armies of the Philistines?” 

1Sa 23:4  Then David inquired of the LORD again. And the LORD answered him, “Arise, go down to Keilah, for I will give the Philistines into your hand.” 

1Sa 23:5  And David and his men went to Keilah and fought with the Philistines and brought away their livestock and struck them with a great blow. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah. 

So David goes after getting confirmation from the Lord to destroy the Palestinians in Keilah.  Let's continue the story ...

1Sa 23:6  When Abiathar the son of Ahimelech had fled to David to Keilah, he had come down with an ephod in his hand. 

1Sa 23:7  Now it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah. And Saul said, “God has given him into my hand, for he has shut himself in by entering a town that has gates and bars.” 

1Sa 23:8  And Saul summoned all the people to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men. 

1Sa 23:9  David knew that Saul was plotting harm against him. And he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod here.” 

1Sa 23:10  Then David said, “O LORD, the God of Israel, your servant has surely heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah, to destroy the city on my account. 

1Sa 23:11  Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, the God of Israel, please tell your servant.” And the LORD said, “He will come down.” 

1Sa 23:12  Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the LORD said, “They will surrender you.” 

1Sa 23:13  Then David and his men, who were about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the expedition. 

Now think about it ... this passage clearly shows that divine foreknowledge that God had was used by David ... and also shows that foreknowledge did not necessitate predestination.

God foreknew what Saul and the leaders of Keilah would do, however this did NOT happen!  Basically, God saw the possibility of what would take place, but this foreknowledge did not predestinate the outcome.

Basically this passage revealed to me ... that predestination and foreknowledge are indeed different.

I thought I'd throw that out there ... as a talking point!  

What do you all think?

Very well said as God knew us from a long time ago and knew if we were going to accept Salvation or not, He gave us the choice,to accept Him or reject His Son....

That how I see it also, foreknowledge and free choice

[George]

3 minutes ago, angels4u said:

That how I see it also, foreknowledge and free choice

... and in this free choice ... also at times changes the mind of God!  Think of Jonah!

Jon 3:2  “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it the message that I tell you.” 

Jon 3:3  So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth. 

Jon 3:4  Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he called out, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

What happened?

Jon 3:6  The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 

Jon 3:7  And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, 

Jon 3:8  but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 

Jon 3:9  Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.” 

Jon 3:10  When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.

God changed His mind! Based on the FREE WILL decision by the people of Nineveh's actions -- REPENTANCE!

Nothing is predetermined ... and the free will of men and their actions can literally changed the mind of God!  

Amazing -- the God we serve!

[angels4u]

3 minutes ago, George said:

... and in this free choice ... also at times changes the mind of God!  Think of Jonah!

Jon 3:2  “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it the message that I tell you.” 

Jon 3:3  So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth. 

Jon 3:4  Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he called out, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

What happened?

Jon 3:6  The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 

Jon 3:7  And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, 

Jon 3:8  but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 

Jon 3:9  Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.” 

Jon 3:10  When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.

God changed His mind! Based on the FREE WILL decision by the people of Nineveh's actions -- REPENTANCE!

Nothing is predetermined ... and the free will of men and their actions can literally changed the mind of God!  

Amazing -- the God we serve!

Quote

and in this free choice ... also at times changes the mind of God!  Think of Jonah!

George, Jonah was a different store, the Holy Spirit had not poured out yet in people's hearts yet, don't you think it's different for today? God knew before we knew if we were going to accept His plan of Salvation and if we accept His Son ,He knew already that we were going to be saved,I believe the minute we're saved,we're sealed with the Holy Spirit and we can't lose our salvation,of course we still sin but we have Jesus acting as a mediator before His Father..

And of  course we will need to repent, the Holy Spirit will convict us of sin.

Or are you talking about situations where God foreknew the outcome of people who were not filled with the Holy Spirit?

[teddyv]

2 hours ago, George said:

Basically this passage revealed to me ... that predestination and foreknowledge are indeed different.

Just curious... is there someone who is making the argument they are the same? By definition these words mean different things. 

[Alive]

What @Georgeis suggesting with those verses does not relate to the flower.

[Patticats]

3 hours ago, George said:

Shalom everyone,

I thought I'd share a piece of Scripture the Lord showed me recently that really helped me understand predestination and foreknowledge ... or at least give me a better understanding.

1Sa 23:1  Now they told David, “Behold, the Philistines are fighting against Keilah and are robbing the threshing floors.” 

1Sa 23:2  Therefore David inquired of the LORD, “Shall I go and attack these Philistines?” And the LORD said to David, “Go and attack the Philistines and save Keilah.” 

1Sa 23:3  But David's men said to him, “Behold, we are afraid here in Judah; how much more then if we go to Keilah against the armies of the Philistines?” 

1Sa 23:4  Then David inquired of the LORD again. And the LORD answered him, “Arise, go down to Keilah, for I will give the Philistines into your hand.” 

1Sa 23:5  And David and his men went to Keilah and fought with the Philistines and brought away their livestock and struck them with a great blow. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah. 

So David goes after getting confirmation from the Lord to destroy the Palestinians in Keilah.  Let's continue the story ...

1Sa 23:6  When Abiathar the son of Ahimelech had fled to David to Keilah, he had come down with an ephod in his hand. 

1Sa 23:7  Now it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah. And Saul said, “God has given him into my hand, for he has shut himself in by entering a town that has gates and bars.” 

1Sa 23:8  And Saul summoned all the people to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men. 

1Sa 23:9  David knew that Saul was plotting harm against him. And he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod here.” 

1Sa 23:10  Then David said, “O LORD, the God of Israel, your servant has surely heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah, to destroy the city on my account. 

1Sa 23:11  Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, the God of Israel, please tell your servant.” And the LORD said, “He will come down.” 

1Sa 23:12  Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the LORD said, “They will surrender you.” 

1Sa 23:13  Then David and his men, who were about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the expedition. 

Now think about it ... this passage clearly shows that divine foreknowledge that God had was used by David ... and also shows that foreknowledge did not necessitate predestination.

God foreknew what Saul and the leaders of Keilah would do, however this did NOT happen!  Basically, God saw the possibility of what would take place, but this foreknowledge did not predestinate the outcome.

Basically this passage revealed to me ... that predestination and foreknowledge are indeed different.

I thought I'd throw that out there ... as a talking point!  

What do you all think?

I  love this George!! I agree with you!! 

[George]

2 hours ago, angels4u said:

George, Jonah was a different store, the Holy Spirit had not poured out yet in people's hearts yet, don't you think it's different for today?

The reality that the plan of God was the same before and after Jesus ... Abraham believed God and it was accounted to Him for righteousness ... it was an imputed righteousness!  After Jesus it's trusting God through His Son and it's an imputed righteousness!  One couldn't SEE the plan before in Abraham's day ... but it was the same God imputing His Righteousness.  And now AFTER the CROSS so we can see the full plan of God.  That's the difference.  Without His righteousness imputed to us ... none of us would be righteous before Him!  In Jonah's day ... they were imputed God's righteousness as they repented and turned to God and believed!  It's a GIFT ... 

Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Basically @angels4u there is the difference between POSITIONAL holiness ... and BEHAVIOR holiness.

In Jesus through FAITH ... we have POSITIONALLY been seated in Heavenly places!  And yet we sin and struggle, etc ... we are working out our BEHAVIOR holiness -- in our daily lives trying to imitate Jesus in all that we do!