Interesting passage gives insights into Predestination and Foreknowledge

[Starise]

4 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Joh 15:22  If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. {cloke: or, excuse }
Yeah, they taught they were the cats meow. But, upon hearing Jesus they were exposed as Judges. There were times when they could not answer Jesus, in debate, all that did was frustrate them. Long story short, they eventually became so jealous they willfully broke every law in the book as Judges. to the point of bribery of false testimony. What judge was to account themselves righteous in that?

The main theme I see here is sin and their lack of acknowledgment of it in themselves. Instead their answer to the sin dilemma was to add religious practice that made them feel as if THEY were accomplishing something, yet their path led them straight to hell.

Jesus was like a hot potato. They didn't know what to do with Him. People were following Him. They saw this as bad because they wanted to be the leaders in authority. And I ask myself why God chose to show these people and their behavior for modern man to read? Sadly because these people still exist in religious institutions today. It's like a warning to us today- These are the evil ones. This is what they are capable of. This is what they will do.

[Anne2]

38 minutes ago, Starise said:

The main theme I see here is sin and their lack of acknowledgment of it in themselves.

You have made some good observations IMO. But it is out of order. The above statement is true. But the second statement is the cause

 

38 minutes ago, Starise said:

Instead their answer to the sin dilemma was to add religious practice that made them feel as if THEY were accomplishing something, yet their path led them straight to hell.

They created fence laws, which allowed them to think they needed no repentance, since those fence laws to avoid, even accidental violation. No need to worry about violating Toah, by keeping their traditions. How many sins were un atoned, or unrepented of because of it?

Mt 23:4  For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Lu 11:46  And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

They were judges supposed to bring Justice among the people in civil disputes. Thereby bringing mercy to victims of injustice,

I wonder if the comment about their fingers removing burdens, was not in connection with the authority to bear the burden of the peoples sin, as the priests.

 

Many more scripture speak of the finger of the priest. But this should suffice.

Le 4:6  And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
Le 4:17  And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the vail.
Le 4:25  And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.
Le 4:30  And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.
Le 4:34  And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:
 

Keeping fence law, perhaps prevented people from needing this?

Edited April 27, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

47 minutes ago, Starise said:

The main theme I see here is sin and their lack of acknowledgment of it in themselves. Instead their answer to the sin dilemma was to add religious practice that made them feel as if THEY were accomplishing something, yet their path led them straight to hell.

Those added practices were to avoid even accidentally sinning. How can a person acknowledge sin if they thought they did not have any in keeping those addition? Putting a fence around the Torah, fenced them out from keeping Torah. They thought they were cleared of violation in it. 

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: {that … : or, as being righteous }
10  Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
 

 

[Starise]

What do you think the significance of the finger is ?................I mean in this context.

[Starise]

1 minute ago, Anne2 said:

Those added practices were to avoid even accidentally sinning. How can a person acknowledge sin if they thought they did not have any in keeping those addition? Putting a fence around the Torah, fenced them out from keeping Torah. They thought they were cleared of violation in it. 

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: {that … : or, as being righteous }
10  Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
 

 

A few things seem to stick out here for me that make no sense, but then when has doing dumb things to attempt self righteousness ever made any sense?

This group does not seem the type to really take God seriously. It's almost as if they think God is gone, detached and out of touch, so they reason, we might as well play god and reap the benefits. 

Setting up these 'fence laws' they didn't take any part in personally is just control of the masses.

The first step toward salvation is realization we are sinners. To feel the real implication of that, the real impact of it is the only way. An aloof individual who has no interest in their sin as something that needs to be confessed will never find salvation. And we might ask, How could a person who has engaged in sin for literally years not see it for what it is? God must bring the realization and the conviction.

[Anne2]

In light of luke 18, they thought they were not sinners by keeping "fence laws".

This prevented them from repenting. A lack of need for the priestly ministry in that regard.

14  And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
15 ¶  Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
16  And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. {remaineth: Heb. dwelleth }
17  And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
18  And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
19  And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
 

[JohnPaul88]

8 minutes ago, Heaven_Bound said:

No, it is based upon the Scriptures itself.   But, many have contorted that meaning and purpose into something that we know could [never] relate to God, since we know God equals LOVE.

 

Personally, whether it's Calvin, Church Fathers, Preachers from the 17th Century to Modern Day, there is enough [truthful Court Documentations/information] that can be found if researched properly to know who I would never accept anything from in relationship to the Word of God.   But, Predestination does exist in Scripture and it relates to Who God is, LOVE.

Thanks for explaining much appreciated.

[Selah7]

21 hours ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

I was predestined to be adopted into God’s Kingdom, I never made a choice ,he chose me...I’ve already posted the scripture.

Do you believe in predestination?

Of course  Anyone who has been called has been predestined.  
 

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30 (NKJV)

S.

[Marathoner]

I haven't forgotten a discussion which @OneLight was involved in some time ago (I was also involved) where he wrote something to this effect regarding predestination:

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Which is to say, the truth is not determinism. The Lord does not force us to draw near and trust His word. That is not love. 

I understand TULIP well enough to both consider and measure arguments either for or against, but this is not a topic intended for debate in that vein. I'm not going there.

What OneLight wrote stuck with me for a long time. This was added to the insight George shared with us here, which has been the work of the Lord so I can properly understand predestination and foreknowledge as both are communicated to us in the scriptures.

In the end, the Lord brought to mind my experience with Him to clarify what our brothers have shared. Yes, the Lord can and sometimes does come to us seemingly out of the blue, but then how He chooses to move upon us is His good pleasure. 

He did indeed give me both the capacity and opportunity to decide if I would draw near and trust Him, or continue as I was when His Spirit spoke to me. That's why dread gripped my heart because His Spirit made this perfectly clear.

We know this as the conviction of His Spirit. Did the Lord know that I would choose Him? Of course, but I didn't until I made that choice! 

[Sower]

6 hours ago, Starise said:

The first step toward salvation is realization we are sinners.

Saved from what?

A forgotten step today among many pastors/denominations/evangelists/mega churches.
 
You gotta get them lost before you can get them saved.

Yes, I know only God can save. But I'm careful not to create another lost pew sitter.
Very important point Starise, and thanks for making it aware to viewers/seekers.