Original Sin

[OneLight]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:05 AM, Alive said:

I will make clear the reason for the OP after a while.

Can you define "after a while"?  Four pages and over 24 hours later, I'm still waiting to see which direction you are planning on taking this question.

[Alive]

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

Can you define "after a while"?  Four pages and over 24 hours later, I'm still waiting to see which direction you are planning on taking this question.

Sorry folks--I am busy with work. I have no strict definition of "after a while", but I will endeavor to work on it.

:-)

[Alive]

First of all, I am pleased that everyone who responded does indeed believe in the reality of original sin per the OP. Its is important as we all know.

I was curious about this--to see if anyone responding thought that a member of Adam's race besides Jesus of course was born innocent.

What prompted this, generally, was thinking about a guy named Palagius, who lived in the 300's up to about 418. An interesting history is that fella. He taught (and had a large following throughout christendom) that man was born innocent and had a choice by his will alone to choose good or evil. That it is entirely up to the will of a man to be as 'good' as he wanted to be and that by exerting his strength and will, he could be very good indeed. His view of Christ's work was therefore a bit different. He believed that the blood was necessary for sins, but that man was sufficent to live a holy life. That is a rather simple explanation of his teaching, but you get the gist.

So essentially, his teaching was one of works.

His success and popularity is what brought Augustine to bear upon this in developing his strong opposition and teaching on Grace and Grace alone. History shows quite a struggle in those days of the church.

Palagius's teaching gained much ground in large part because man likes to think he is in control and has a will strong enough to be 'good'.

That erroneous teaching still persists today--in eastern religions, various humanist thought and in christendom in various degrees.

It remains a danger.

A study of those two men and what they wrote is worth doing....IMO

Thank you for participating.

[Sower]

We all carry our great great great etc grand parents DNA, that was  corrupted with a virus, only kept in check by the anti virus, Jesus. (word picture:)

That may have a lot to do with myself struggling with grace after thirty years of works (choosing good vs evil) in the RCC. Salvation by grace through faith opened up my heart of understanding, but it took awhile to gain the faith of eternal security. I now believe;

"Yeah, I can loose my salvation! But only if it depended on me.
Thank God it doesn't depend on my faithfulness holding on to God.
But it is God holding on to me, faithfully"

"For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that   which I have committed unto him against that day"  2 Timothy 1:12

[Alive]

7 minutes ago, Sower said:

We all carry our great great great etc grand parents DNA, that was  corrupted with a virus, only kept in check by the anti virus, Jesus. (word picture:)

That may have a lot to do with myself struggling with grace after thirty years of works (choosing good vs evil) in the RCC. Salvation by grace through faith opened up my heart of understanding, but it took awhile to gain the faith of eternal security. I now believe;

"Yeah, I can loose my salvation! But only if it depended on me.
Thank God it doesn't depend on my faithfulness holding on to God.
But it is God holding on to me, faithfully"

"For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that   which I have committed unto him against that day"  2 Timothy 1:12

A wonderful testimony, brother. Is it not interesting that even realizing the truth that scripture teaches, we need the Life of Christ in us to verify and make it real? It takes time.

[Sower]

52 minutes ago, Alive said:

A wonderful testimony, brother. Is it not interesting that even realizing the truth that scripture teaches, we need the Life of Christ in us to verify and make it real? It takes time.

"we need the Life of Christ in us to verify"

Though I was truly born again some forty plus years ago, I struggled for over a year to understand more fully God's grace and mercy. As you said 'the life of Christ in 'us' was the holy spirit working in me that year giving the light of the truth of my eternal security by just believing. Plus, nothing else. I believe most ex catholics have a difficult time with that. Not I but Christ in me!

 

[kwikphilly]

10 hours ago, Sower said:

"we need the Life of Christ in us to verify"

Though I was truly born again some forty plus years ago, I struggled for over a year to understand more fully God's grace and mercy. As you said 'the life of Christ in 'us' was the holy spirit working in me that year giving the light of the truth of my eternal security by just believing. Plus, nothing else. I believe most ex catholics have a difficult time with that. Not I but Christ in me!

 

I can attest to that Brother- the hardest thing coming out of catholicism was to Understand WHO we are in Christ Jesus..... Blameless,spotless,without stain,  wrinkle or blemish- Holy,  Worthy, Pleasing SAINT!

PRAISE JESUS!

[Alive]

13 hours ago, Heaven_Bound said:

I have never heard anyone claim we are innocent of sin at birth, until this post.   Who teaches this, what Doctrines, who Today would this message relate to?

Start with a google search. You will be surprised.

You will find versions of Palagianism alive and well. It is at the root of much error.

[enoob57]

Palagianism is the invented boogie man of calvinist to push total depravity... Calvinistic total depravity says every individual is corps like dead and cannot respond to God's Word unless regenerated by God first. This of course does not match what Scripture states... There are many a lazy people who do not study but take others words for things this is error! He, Pelagius, was against Catholicism particularly infant baptism and of course a manichean gnostic Augustine was not. 
http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/libraryoftheologycom/writings/pelagianism/Pelagius'_Commentary_On_Thirteen_Epistles.pdf

There was much distortions during that time and little of his writings or knowledge of him is available so it was perfect for Calvinist to use as a boogie man sway toward their way of thinking...  

Yes people are born spiritual dead as Scripture teaches and the Gospel of God's Word is
Romans 1:16 (KJV)

[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Although God's Word (Gospel of Christ) is the power of God >unto< salvation they deny this and make God's Work of Word impotent and state plainly it is not sufficient but an additional work of regeneration before God's Word can do anything! This is not how the work of God is formulated in Scripture and no where in Scripture is stated that regeneration precedes hearing of the Word of God and believing 

Romans 10:13 (KJV)

[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[Alive]

52 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Palagianism is the invented boogie man of calvinist to push total depravity.

This is simply not true at all...yes study is important in many cases.

It was about 150 years after Palagius that Augustine battled against Palagius' doctrine.

Augustine was a long way before the Reformation and Calvin. The church has long battled against the insidious ideas of man's moral integrity and pride.

Paul argued against these things. There is also a strong connection to one of the two major facets of Gnosticism, but that will be for another OP--Lord willing.