Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[transmogrified]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

We go in one way we are raised in another. 

Yes, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power...it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body...it is sown in corruption it is raised in incorruption...this mortal must put on immortality...

All of this is true...but it doesn't happen immediately upon death...it happens when the last trumpet sounds and all of the dead in Christ are changed...

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

We don't go in one way, have our spirit raise up,

'Then the dust shall return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto god who gave it..'

 Job 34:15-

 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Eccl.8:8 -

There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:The spirit returns to God who gave it...

 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

then our spirit come back

The only place where it specifically talks about the spirit returning to the person was when a person died and they were raised up in a natural body...such as:

Luke 8:55 -And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

The thought that the spirit is reunited with the body at the resurrection to immortality is not something specifically stated in scripture.

The only scripture that describes what happens at the resurrection is with the two witnesses. It does not say 'their spirit came back to them' but rather it says 'the spirit of life from God' entered into them:

Rev. 11:11 And after three days and and half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet;

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

then our spirit join up with the dead and then have the dead raise up to be made alive.

Right...that is what those who espouse the thought that our spirit reunites with our body would say...the scripture is not putting that forth.  

 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

IF YOU CAN FIND THAT WRITTEN, then I will also believe, 

What is written is that 'The spirit of Life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet...' the phrase 'stood upon their feet' means they were resurrected...this is when they were resurrected into immortality...this is when corruption put on incorruption...this is when they were raised in power...'

But it is apparent they were not immediately glorified at death...for they had been dead for 3. 5 days...They were not immediately glorified at death...they were glorified after 3.5 days...the amount of time is not of specific interest concerning what we are talking about...the point is, they were resurrected and changed at the Last trump...in the same manner all the saints will sleep in the dust of the earth until the last trump...then, just like the two witnesses who were BOTH raised at the same time, so will all the other saints be resurrected and glorified at the same time, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, no matter if they have been dead for 3.5 days or 2000 years. 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What is written is very specific.  

The above scripture is written and it is very specific...

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

The scriptures you then cite are of course true....but the change does not happen until the Last Trump...it didn't happen for the two witnesses and it won't happen for anyone else either..

It is Christ the firstfruits...afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. The two witnesses belonged to Christ...they were not resurrected and glorified until the last trump sounded...their DEAD BODIES were not laying in the street in a glorified state...Immortal bodies do not die...the bodies that were laying in the street were MORTAL BODIES....They did not receive immortal bodies when they were killed or they would not have been laying the street dead for 3. 5 days...

That is the definition of a MORTAL BODY...it is subject to death...it shows they were in a mortal body or they could not have been killed...it also shows they were in mortal bodies up to the very time the 7th Trumpet sounded or they would not have been laying DEAD in the street...Scripture specifically says they were DEAD...

They were in the same condition as the rest of us who will sleep in the dust of the earth until the resurrection...they were SLEEPING IN JESUS....In this condition their spirit had returned to God and their MORTAL BODIES were returning to the dust as they were. 

This is spelling out what Daniel meant when he said 'multitudes of those sleeping in the dust of the earth shall awake...'' These were those who were raised unto EVERLASTING LIFE....They were sleeping in the dust of the earth, and when they heard the voice saying 'come up hither' the spirit of Life from God entered into them, and THIS is the very point the mortal put on immortality...it did not put it on 3. 5 days before...it put it on at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet...

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Yes, of course. The two witnesses  were in  natural bodies, meaning they were in mortal bodies, then when the Spirit of Life from God entered them they took on the spiritual body...they took it on at that point, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE IT BEFORE...

 

[Your closest friendnt]

19 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power...it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body...it is sown in corruption it is raised in incorruption...this mortal must put on immortality...

All of this is true...but it doesn't happen immediately upon death...it happens when the last trumpet sounds and all of the dead in Christ are changed...

'Then the dust shall return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto god who gave it..'

 Job 34:15-

 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Eccl.8:8 -

There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:The spirit returns to God who gave it...

 

The only place where it specifically talks about the spirit returning to the person was when a person died and they were raised up in a natural body...such as:

Luke 8:55 -And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

The thought that the spirit is reunited with the body at the resurrection to immortality is not something specifically stated in scripture.

The only scripture that describes what happens at the resurrection is with the two witnesses. It does not say 'their spirit came back to them' but rather it says 'the spirit of life from God' entered into them:

Rev. 11:11 And after three days and and half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet;

Right...that is what those who espouse the thought that our spirit reunites with our body would say...the scripture is not putting that forth.  

 

What is written is that 'The spirit of Life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet...' the phrase 'stood upon their feet' means they were resurrected...this is when they were resurrected into immortality...this is when corruption put on incorruption...this is when they were raised in power...'

But it is apparent they were not immediately glorified at death...for they had been dead for 3. 5 days...They were not immediately glorified at death...they were glorified after 3.5 days...the amount of time is not of specific interest concerning what we are talking about...the point is, they were resurrected and changed at the Last trump...in the same manner all the saints will sleep in the dust of the earth until the last trump...then, just like the two witnesses who were BOTH raised at the same time, so will all the other saints be resurrected and glorified at the same time, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, no matter if they have been dead for 3.5 days or 2000 years. 

The above scripture is written and it is very specific...

The scriptures you then cite are of course true....but the change does not happen until the Last Trump...it didn't happen for the two witnesses and it won't happen for anyone else either..

It is Christ the firstfruits...afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. The two witnesses belonged to Christ...they were not resurrected and glorified until the last trump sounded...their DEAD BODIES were not laying in the street in a glorified state...Immortal bodies do not die...the bodies that were laying in the street were MORTAL BODIES....They did not receive immortal bodies when they were killed or they would not have been laying the street dead for 3. 5 days...

That is the definition of a MORTAL BODY...it is subject to death...it shows they were in a mortal body or they could not have been killed...it also shows they were in mortal bodies up to the very time the 7th Trumpet sounded or they would not have been laying DEAD in the street...Scripture specifically says they were DEAD...

They were in the same condition as the rest of us who will sleep in the dust of the earth until the resurrection...they were SLEEPING IN JESUS....In this condition their spirit had returned to God and their MORTAL BODIES were returning to the dust as they were. 

This is spelling out what Daniel meant when he said 'multitudes of those sleeping in the dust of the earth shall awake...'' These were those who were raised unto EVERLASTING LIFE....They were sleeping in the dust of the earth, and when they heard the voice saying 'come up hither' the spirit of Life from God entered into them, and THIS is the very point the mortal put on immortality...it did not put it on 3. 5 days before...it put it on at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet...

Yes, of course. The two witnesses  were in  natural bodies, meaning they were in mortal bodies, then when the Spirit of Life from God entered them they took on the spiritual body...they took it on at that point, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE IT BEFORE...

 

 

You are not sounding like a Christian...those postings from Job and Eccl. are not the Gospel teachings of the disciples...there the teachings of someone who does not believe in Hell...

***Then the dust shall return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto god who gave it..'

 Job 34:15-

 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Eccl.8:8 -

There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:The spirit returns to God who gave it...

[transmogrified]

13 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

You are not sounding like a Christian...those postings from Job and Eccl. are not the Gospel teachings of the disciples..

Here is a teaching of the apostle Paul...Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump.

Did the two witnesses get immortal bodies at their death or did they get it after 3.5 days after their death at the 7th Trumpet?

[Your closest friendnt]

46 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Here is a teaching of the apostle Paul...Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump.

 Jesus Christ had something to say about that...that no servant is greater than his Master...

Paul is speaking to his contemporaries, is it not? 

Did Paul knew that the spirits of those who are sleeping in the dust are with God...and please Identify "God"...and please describe the act of sleeping in the dust...as if you were the narrator and wanted to let others see what you see when you say say those words...

You must see people sleeping in the dust...so please draw their picture in their sleeping position, and in their sleeping place...as if you were producing a film...

46 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Did the two witnesses get immortal bodies at their death or did they get it after 3.5 days after their death at the 7th Trumpet?

What does the scriptures say?

 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power...it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body...it is sown in corruption it is raised in incorruption...this mortal must put on immortality...

All of this is true...but it doesn't happen immediately upon death...it happens when the last trumpet sounds and all of the dead in Christ are changed...

So what did Christ accomplish on the cross?  

What was it that happened under the law, the doesn't happen under grace?

Under the law you died 'in sin' because the law couldn't give forgiveness for sin and wash you clean and so you were bound to death by sin AWAITING the last day to be raised up.  


Under GRACE you die _____________ because the blood of the Lamb slain washes you clean and so you are _________________________without sin 

BUT STILL AWAITING THE LAST DAY TO BE RAISED UP?

 

[DeighAnn]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think you have the wrong idea. When a born again believer dies, they are ESCORTED or carried by angels up to heaven. They are very much alive so have no need to be "raised up."

I think that is the RIGHT IDEA.  So why do you have them COMING BACK FOR A BODY when GOD has already given the bare grain one???  and to every seed a body...

What do you read that TELLS YOU there is a 'waiting' period'?  

All you say still has THE NEVER DIE as dead.  DEAD in Christ is STILL DEAD.  You can say all the rest a billion times but NEVER will you be able to say anything other than you are making those Jesus said would NEVER DIE, dead.  

ALL THE REST are just words of man trying to explain why YOUR BELIEF holds true when IT IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT IS WRITTEN.  

You can go on and on in every direction and the same problem exists NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO EXPLAIN IT.  

YOU HAVE THE NEVER DIE, dying.  And not just their NATURAL body but they soul and their spiritual body as well.  The only thing you have alive is the spirit and then you have that spirit REJOINING DECOMP for an eternal spiritual body.  

Does that sound RIGHT?  

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

I think that is the RIGHT IDEA.  So why do you have them COMING BACK FOR A BODY when GOD has already given the bare grain one???  and to every seed a body...

What do you read that TELLS YOU there is a 'waiting' period'?  

All you say still has THE NEVER DIE as dead.  DEAD in Christ is STILL DEAD.  You can say all the rest a billion times but NEVER will you be able to say anything other than you are making those Jesus said would NEVER DIE, dead.  

ALL THE REST are just words of man trying to explain why YOUR BELIEF holds true when IT IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT IS WRITTEN.  

You can go on and on in every direction and the same problem exists NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO EXPLAIN IT.  

YOU HAVE THE NEVER DIE, dying.  And not just their NATURAL body but they soul and their spiritual body as well.  The only thing you have alive is the spirit and then you have that spirit REJOINING DECOMP for an eternal spiritual body.  

Does that sound RIGHT?  

"Bare grain" kind of body?  Let's keep "bare grain" in context.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Here Paul's subject is the resurrection of dead human bodies  to a resurrection body that will never die.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

In context Paul is still talking about our resurrection body -  what it will be like. There is no way this can be construed to be about the human spirit. The human spirit can never die or cease to exist or function. But the human spirit can be INSIDE a body: either a natural flesh and blood body that we have now, or inside a changed body that will never die. I call that a resurrection body.

It is a miracle that God can take a body turned back to dust, pull those dust particles back together and reform dust into the body that died, raise it up and then change it into a resurrection body - but that is exactly what is going to happen on resurrection day. Oh, another miracle: the resurrection body will appear to be as the person looked when they were around 30 years old.

Quote

What do you read that TELLS YOU there is a 'waiting' period'?  

 We ARE waiting. One thing we are waiting for is the precious fruit of the harvest. Another thing we are waiting for is that final martyr to be killed. Perhaps we are also waiting for the last few days of the 6000 years of Adam's lease. We are waiting for the time of the Gentiles to end. We are waiting for the fig tree to bud, and all the trees. I take that to mean that all the nations must be in the right place for the end times to play out as God has declared. Is this the waiting period you are talking about - the "church age?"

Quote

All you say still has THE NEVER DIE as dead.  DEAD in Christ is STILL DEAD. 

How we determine the meaning of a verse MUST fit with all other verses on a subject. I think Jesus was talking about the real person, our Spirit man.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Let's reason together. EVERYONE in this story died physically - including Jesus. Therefore Jesus could not have been talking about the physical body. Does this make sense? Paul wrote that physical death would be the last enemy to be conquered. Back when Jesus said these words, the ending of physical death forever was a very long ways into the future and still is for us today. HOWEVER, for Lazarus, Jesus changed that, and gave him some more time to live.

Since NO ONE - NOT ONE SINGLE HUMAN from Jesus time -  EXCEPT Jesus who became the firstfruits from the dead - stayed alive to fulfill your meaning of those words. There is no one walking around on earth today that is close to 2000 years old, for Paul wrote that in Adam ALL DIE. 

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die...

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If Jesus was talking about the physical human body, then we have a serious problem as a huge contradiction in God's Word. However, if we consider that Jesus was talking about the REAL PERSON, the spirit and soul of a human, then the contradiction goes away. God created the human spirit to live forever. Since Jesus was talking about only those that believe in Him, then we understand He was talking about His gift of ETERNAL LIFE given to every person that would believe on Him. YOU have eternal life, and I have eternal life - just as does every other believer.

We have to have common sense in our believing. All those from Jesus day that believed on Him DIED a physical death. Jesus therefore was not speaking of the physical, but rather of the spiritual. 

This is my explanation of Jesus' words. What to the commentaries say?

Ellicott's Commentary

Quote

"Shall never die.—Comp. especially Note on John 8:51. He shall by no means die for ever. Not through the infinite course of ages shall there be that which makes for him the sting of death. The fact of what we call physical death is not denied, but in the fulness of the thought of life it is regarded as the passage to a new and higher life."

Benson Commentary

Quote

Such a one shall never die — A promise this which ensures a blessed immortality, 1st, To the soul: he who, being united to Christ by faith, lives a spiritual life by virtue of that union, shall never die; his spiritual life shall never be extinguished, but perfected in eternal life. For, as the soul, being in its nature spiritual, is therefore immortal; so, if by faith it live here a spiritual life, consonant to its nature, its felicity shall be immortal too. And there shall be no interruption of its life, as there is of the life of the body. The body indeed dies, or sleeps rather, but not for ever, as the original expression here used, ου μη αποθανη, εις τον αιωνα, applied to it, is rendered by some. For, 2d, This promise ensures future life and happiness to it also. All the difficulties that attend the state of the dead are here overlooked by our Lord, and made nothing of, while he speaks of himself as the resurrection and the life.

Barne's Notes:

Quote

Shall never die - As the dead, though dead, shall yet live, so the living shall have the same kind of life. They shall never come into eternal death. See John 6:50-51, John 6:54, John 6:58. Greek, "Shall by no means die forever."

Emphasis mine

J.F.B. Commentary

Quote

he that believeth in me, though … dead … shall he live—that is, The believer's death shall be swallowed up in life, and his life shall never sink into death. As death comes by sin, it is His to dissolve it; and as life flows through His righteousness, it is His to communicate and eternally maintain it (Ro 5:21). The temporary separation of soul and body is here regarded as not even interrupting, much less impairing, the new and everlasting life imparted by Jesus to His believing people.

Emphasis mine

Matthew Poole's Commentary

Quote

He saith, he that liveth, that liveth a natural life, if he be one who receiveth and embraces me as the true Messiah and Saviour of the world, and committeth himself and all the concerns of his soul to me, shall never die. Though his body shall die because of sin, yet his spirit shall live because of righteousness; and God shall in the great day quicken again his mortal body, through the Holy Spirit which dwelleth in him, and is united to him

Gill's Commentary

Quote

 

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me,..... Whoever will be found alive at Christ's second coming, and is a believer in him,

shall never die, but shall be changed, and shall be for ever with Christ; and such as shall be raised to life by him, shall never die any more, not even a bodily death, and much less an eternal one, or the second death: and though believers die a corporeal death as others do, yet their souls live, and live in happiness, whilst their bodies are under the power of death; nor shall they always continue so, but being raised, shall become immortal, and die no more. So living believers in Christ shall never die more a spiritual death; they are passed from death to life, and shall never return to death more; their spiritual life cannot be lost;

 

Emphasis mine

Bengal's Gnomen

Quote

“This is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life.”—οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ, shall not die) Shall be exempt from death, to all eternity. 

Clark's Commentary

Quote

Verse 26. Shall never die. — Or, Shall not die for ever. Though he die a temporal death. he shall not continue under its power for ever; but shall have a resurrection to life eternal.

Calvin's Commentary

Quote

 

Shall never die. The reason why it is said that believers never die is, that their souls, being born again of incorruptible seed, (1 Peter 1:23,) have Christ dwelling in them, from whom they derive perpetual vigor; for, though

the body be subject to death on account of sin, yet the spirit is life on account of righteousness, (Romans 8:10.)

 

Smith's Commentary

Quote

Now, you see how inconsistent it would be to say that someone who had eternal life died. It's a total inconsistency of terms. "Oh, he has eternal life. Yes, he died yesterday." No, if you have eternal life, you can't die. And this is the record that God has given unto us life, eternal life. This life is in the Son, and he who has the Son has life. "I'm the resurrection and the life."

So, "He who lives and believes in me," Jesus said, "shall never die. They shall not perish. I have given to them eternal life,

Barclay's STudy Bible

Quote

 

everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die." What exactly did he mean? Not even a lifetime's thinking will reveal the full meaning of this; but we must try to grasp as much of it as we can.

One thing is clear--Jesus was not thinking in terms of physical life; for, speaking physically, it is not true that the man who believes in him will never die. The Christian experiences physical death as any other man does. We must look for a more than physical meaning.

 

Emphasis mine

Henry's Complete Commentary

Quote

 

 Though he die, yet shall he live, nay, he shall never die,John 11:26; John 11:26. Man consists of body and soul, and provision is made for the happiness of both.

      (a.) For the body; here is the promise of a blessed resurrection. Though the body be dead because of sin (there is no remedy but it will die), yet it shall live again. All the difficulties that attend the state of the dead are here overlooked, and made nothing of. Though the sentence of death was just, though the effects of death be dismal, though the bands of death be strong, though he be dead and buried, dead and putrefied, though the scattered dust be so mixed with common dust that no art of man can distinguish, much less separate them, put the case as strongly as you will on that side, yet we are sure that he shall live again: the body shall be raised a glorious body.

      (b.) For the soul; here is the promise of a blessed immortality. He that liveth and believeth, who, being united to Christ by faith, lives spiritually by virtue of that union, he shall never die. That spiritual life shall never be extinguished, but perfected in eternal life.

 

Spurgeon

Quote

 Here is a very literal translation "And every one who lives and believes on me, in no wise shall die forever." This is from "The Englishman's Greek New Test-ament," and nothing can be better. The believer may pass through the natural change called death, as far as his body is concerned; but as for his soul it cannot die, for it is written, "I give unto my sheep eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." 

It seems I am in agreement with every one of these. 

Please explain how you solve this seeming contradiction.

 

 

[Alive]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

God created the human spirit to live forever.

Can you provide scripture for this statement?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Can you provide scripture for this statement?

By "live" I mean never to cease to exist."

Have you found verses that speak of eternal life? How about John 3:16?

Have you found verses that speak of eternal death? How about Rev. 14:10-11?

[Alive]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

By "live" I mean never to cease to exist."

Have you found verses that speak of eternal life? How about John 3:16?

Have you found verses that speak of eternal death? How about Rev. 14:10-11?

Scripture tellme there is only one kind of eternal life and that is Christ.