Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[Your closest friendnt]

4 minutes ago, Alive said:

Scripture tellme there is only one kind of eternal life and that is Christ.

This is about the eternal Life with God...only can be acoblished under the blood of Jesus Christ and his righteousness...

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Scripture tellme there is only one kind of eternal life and that is Christ.

This is true, the other kind of life that lasts forever is called eternal death.

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is true, the other kind of life that lasts forever is called eternal death.

That is not possible. What is the last enemy to be defeated?

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Here Paul's subject is the resurrection of dead human bodies  to a resurrection body that will never die.

The dead rise and with what body do they come?  DEAD HUMAN BODY according to MAN, but SOW NOT THE BODY THAT WILL BE ACCORDING TO GOD

Why would GOD use THE OLD SINFUL HUMAN DECOMPOSING CARCASSES (without the spirit the body is dead) for the HEAVENLY SPIRITUAL ETERNAL GLORIFIED BODY?  

WHY was CHRISTS BODY SPECIAL and DIFFERENT than ours?  One HIS FATHER was SPIRITUAL and 2 

Psalm 16:1 Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.

Psalm 16:2 O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;

Psalm 16:3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

Psalm 16:4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.

Psalm 16:5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.

Psalm 16:6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.

Psalm 16:7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.

Psalm 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

Psalm 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.


Which is necessary because

1Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Could you explain how corruption will be inheriting incorruption?  After all decaying flesh is corruption.  Know why the risen DEAD have to stand in judgment 1000 years later?  because corruption doesn't inherit incorruption.  

I am getting a REALLY LONG list of questions you have not answered.  Would you like me to start asking them again or shall I just assume that you have no answers for any of them?  

I think it is NOW safe to say that those who profess the truth of the pre trib rapture theory,

do so WITHOUT the ability for GODS WORDS to do the same.  I have asked this very question of every single one who has gotten into long discussions and NEVER, NOT ONCE has a SINGLE person done so.  Same as NOT A SINGLE word did Jesus ever utter about it.  Not before He died and rose and not after He walked the earth after.  

Paul speaks of our gathering to Christ to be AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN.  

I Thess 4 is about  WHERE ARE THOSE WHO HAVE 'GONE TO SLEEP'  (and so as not to get confused I will say those who NEVER DIE but whose natural body dies and gives seed to the spiritual body, to which seed God gives a body and even the souls under the altar are given ROBES.  ROBES ARE FOR BODIES)   

AS JESUS DIED AND ROSE, EVEN SO THEM AND EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER,  STARTING WITH CHRIST FOLLOWED BY THOSE WHO SLEPT, FOLLOWED BY THOSE WHO NEVER DIE, FOLLOWED BY THE ALIVE AND REMAINING AT CHRISTS RETURN

As Jesus died and rose, even so them which sleep,and
every man in his own order,  starting with Christ the FIRST FRUITS
followed by those who slept,
followed by those who never die (every man 'risen' in his own order)
followed by those who are alive and remaining
followed by those of the dead (that rose up at Christs return) who at the GWTJ are found in the book.


The pre trib rapture theory doctrine REQUIRES the wisdom NOT OF GOD words  but of man,  for it to be both taught and learned.  

Even in this post you SAY the flesh rises EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE READ TIME AND AGAIN 

SOW NOT THE BODY THAT WILL BE,

but for some reason you refuse to accept that is what is written in the words of God even going so far as SAY IT AGAIN, DEAD FLESH IS RISEN... it makes no sense.  

but bare grain...and on with the reasons why what is written isn't what is meant.  

There is only ONE reason to deny that and that is because of the pre trib rapture theory doctrine.  No other reason.  


HERE IS WHAT GOD SAYS  -    thou sowest NOT that body that shall be  

HERE IS WHAT  IAMLAMD SAYS   Here Paul's subject is the resurrection of dead human bodies to a resurrection body that will never die.

Talk about opposites.  

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The dead rise and with what body do they come?  DEAD HUMAN BODY according to MAN, but SOW NOT THE BODY THAT WILL BE ACCORDING TO GOD

Why would GOD use THE OLD SINFUL HUMAN DECOMPOSING CARCASSES (without the spirit the body is dead) for the HEAVENLY SPIRITUAL ETERNAL GLORIFIED BODY?  

WHY was CHRISTS BODY SPECIAL and DIFFERENT than ours?  One HIS FATHER was SPIRITUAL and 2 

Psalm 16:1 Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.

Psalm 16:2 O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;

Psalm 16:3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

Psalm 16:4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.

Psalm 16:5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.

Psalm 16:6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.

Psalm 16:7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.

Psalm 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

Psalm 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.


Which is necessary because

1Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Could you explain how corruption will be inheriting incorruption?  After all decaying flesh is corruption.  Know why the risen DEAD have to stand in judgment 1000 years later?  because corruption doesn't inherit incorruption.  

I am getting a REALLY LONG list of questions you have not answered.  Would you like me to start asking them again or shall I just assume that you have no answers for any of them?  

I think it is NOW safe to say that those who profess the truth of the pre trib rapture theory,

do so WITHOUT the ability for GODS WORDS to do the same.  I have asked this very question of every single one who has gotten into long discussions and NEVER, NOT ONCE has a SINGLE person done so.  Same as NOT A SINGLE word did Jesus ever utter about it.  Not before He died and rose and not after He walked the earth after.  

Paul speaks of our gathering to Christ to be AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN.  

I Thess 4 is about  WHERE ARE THOSE WHO HAVE 'GONE TO SLEEP'  (and so as not to get confused I will say those who NEVER DIE but whose natural body dies and gives seed to the spiritual body, to which seed God gives a body and even the souls under the altar are given ROBES.  ROBES ARE FOR BODIES)   

AS JESUS DIED AND ROSE, EVEN SO THEM AND EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER,  STARTING WITH CHRIST FOLLOWED BY THOSE WHO SLEPT, FOLLOWED BY THOSE WHO NEVER DIE, FOLLOWED BY THE ALIVE AND REMAINING AT CHRISTS RETURN

As Jesus died and rose, even so them which sleep,and
every man in his own order,  starting with Christ the FIRST FRUITS
followed by those who slept,
followed by those who never die (every man 'risen' in his own order)
followed by those who are alive and remaining
followed by those of the dead (that rose up at Christs return) who at the GWTJ are found in the book.


The pre trib rapture theory doctrine REQUIRES the wisdom NOT OF GOD words  but of man,  for it to be both taught and learned.  

Even in this post you SAY the flesh rises EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE READ TIME AND AGAIN 

SOW NOT THE BODY THAT WILL BE,

but for some reason you refuse to accept that is what is written in the words of God even going so far as SAY IT AGAIN, DEAD FLESH IS RISEN... it makes no sense.  

but bare grain...and on with the reasons why what is written isn't what is meant.  

There is only ONE reason to deny that and that is because of the pre trib rapture theory doctrine.  No other reason.  


HERE IS WHAT GOD SAYS  -    thou sowest NOT that body that shall be  

HERE IS WHAT  IAMLAMD SAYS   Here Paul's subject is the resurrection of dead human bodies to a resurrection body that will never die.

Talk about opposites.  

What is written is written. Some times it takes understanding. 

Why do you think Matthew wrote, "the graves were opened?"

Could it be that old body was raised?

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Alive said:

That is not possible. What is the last enemy to be defeated?

Please explain why you think eternal death is not possible.

[DeighAnn]

44 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What is written is written. Some times it takes understanding. 

Why do you think Matthew wrote, "the graves were opened?"

Could it be that old body was raised?

Any possibility of you putting forth SCRIPTURE as showing what you are saying?  If you CAN'T could you please say 'I can't' or I don't want to so I won't and not just act like I haven't asked.  Could you acknowledge the request?   

[DeighAnn]

46 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What is written is written. Some times it takes understanding. 

Why do you think Matthew wrote, "the graves were opened?"

Could it be that old body was raised?

WHICH WORD ARE YOU FINDING DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND? 

SOW 

 

 

NOT

 

 

THE

 

 

BODY

 

 

THAT

 

 

WILL

 

 

BE.  



1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


I was just wondering WHAT DO YOU SEE AS BEING WRITTEN HERE?  

Do you see that word NOT?  

If it had been written 'thou sowest the body that shall be' THEN I WOULD BE WITH YOU A MILLION PERCENT.  

 

[DeighAnn]

52 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Could it be that old body was raised?

No, but it could it be that their SPIRITUAL BODIES that were. 

Could it be that the graves were opened so that they WOULD know beyond all doubt that DEATH had been defeated for those having been SAVED?  Could it be the graves were opened because JESUS CAME TO FULFILL EVERYTHING WRITTEN IN THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS AND THAT THE 'LAST DAY' THE OT children had been looking forward to had come SO THAT Jesus could have fulfilled everything.  If there wasn't a LAST DAY on that last day then could Jesus have fulfilled all that was written of Him? 

Could it be 'only some' appeared for a while, before they ascended, UNSEEN?  


And now I bring up this Scripture not because it has anything to do with graves opening but because it shows us  JUST HOW CLOSE THE UNSEEN WORLD IS TO US when we don't have a clue because OUR EYES can not see it.  That is the reason for the next few verses.  

 

2Kings 6:14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

 2Kings 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

2 Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

2 Kings 6:18 And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.


Never dies go from this seen to that unseen though the only thing seen here is the carcass of the spirit/soul/spiritual body that left the seen and has gone into the unseen world of the LIVING IN HEAVEN WITH GOD OF THE LIVING. 

Not like those who upon death,  DESCEND to hell,  into the unseen realm of the dead. 

 

[transmogrified]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So what did Christ accomplish on the cross?  

He bore the sins of those under the Old Testament and he bore the sins of those under the New Testament. This has nothing to do with when all the believers will be resurrected. Here is the criteria of those who will be resurrected on the Last day:

1) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Who are the saints that were given to Christ? Just the Old Testament saints? Of course not..Jesus said 'all mine are thine, and thine are mine.' All of God's sheep belong to Christ as he said in John 10:

Quote

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;

Were just the Old Testament saints his sheep? Of course not. Were just the Old Testament sheep given to Christ? Of course not. God gave Peter James and John to Jesus just as much as he gave the Old Testament saints to Jesus.

The criteria of those who are to be resurrected on the Last Day includes ALL SAINTS. It will include those who came out of their graves after Christ's resurrection...Those who came out at that time WERE NOT CHANGED INTO GLORIFIED BODIES.

The criteria for those who will be changed is not some at one time and then as each individual dies...NO NO NO. WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP. The Last Trump sounds AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION...it did not sound when the graves were opened and the saints went into Jerusalem...it will not sound before the tribulation...it will not sound in the middle of the tribulation...it only sounds one time and that is when the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our Lord...

That did not happen when those went into Jerusalem...it will not happen before the tribulation...it will not happen in the middle of the tribulation...it will only happen immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

ALL can not be changed UNTIL the Last Trumpet sounds. It has not sounded yet...ALL that God gave to Christ will NOT be resurrected UNTIL HE COMES...as it plainly states...Christ the firstfruits...afterward THEY THAT BELONG TO CHRIST AT HIS COMING.

And of course he did not mean his first coming, for he was writing to saints that were believers AFTER Jesus had already been resurrected so he was absolutely talking about the SECOND COMING.

It was said that those who are alive and remain will be changed at his coming and it does not pertain to believers who have died for they have already been changed...This is absolutely false...those who are Christs at his coming is a direct reference to believers who have died and who will be resurrected when he comes. 'THOSE THAT ARE CHRISTS AT HIS COMING,' 

IS..

NOT..

TALKING...

ABOUT..

THE LIVING..

BUT RATHER...

THE DEAD IN CHRIST.

This was your statement before hand...only those that are alive and remain will be changed at the Last Trump...because those that have died HAVE ALREADY BEEN CHANGED...

NO..

THEY...

HAVEN'T..

ALREADY..

BEEN..

CHANGED...

No one is resurrected UNTIL THE LAST DAY, and when that day comes ALL will be resurrected, so the Last Day has NOT ALREADY COME...THIS IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.

If they were ALL changed immediately upon death then the two witnesses would not have laid DEAD in the street for 3.5 days...they would have already been up in heaven in immortal bodies...BUT THEY WEREN'T as scripture plainly shows.

They first were physically resurrected and stood upon their feet BEFORE they ascended up into heaven...why? Because they were not already in heaven in immortal bodies...they were lying dead in the street...Why? Because they were not immediately glorified when they died...It is a false doctrine that this will happen immediately when anyone dies...Paul said Jesus is the ONLY one who has immortality...If he is the only one who has it then NOBODY has it yet...Why? Because scripture plainly says when we will ALL get immortal bodies..What does Paul say? This is what he did not say: 'Behold I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed individually as each person dies and the only ones who will be changed collectively will be those who are alive and remaining until the coming of the Lord......'

NO NO NO. That is not what he said...He said WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP ...what does that mean? It means WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP...What does it NOT MEAN?

It doesn't mean we shall all be individually changed as each person dies...it doesn't mean some will be changed BEFORE the last trump and then the rest changed AFTER the Last Trump...

Pre trib is erring trying to make it sound like some will be changed at one time and some at another...others are saying only those who are alive will be changed at the last trump..some will say we will all be changed 1000 years after the last trump...

What do all these constructs have in common? They all are different from what Paul plainly said...Behold, I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep, but we SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye...AT THE LAST TRUMP.

What is the criteria?

Who is changed? All the believers...

How long will it take? A moment, a twinkle of an eye...

When will it happen? At the last trump...

Here is the criteria for those raised on the last day...

1) All those God gave to Christ...This would include Peter, James and John so APPARENTLY it is not referring to people who are alive and remaining until the coming of the Lord. It also includes all old testament saints as they are his sheep as well as the Gentiles...

2) All those who God has drawn...This of course includes you and me and all new testament saints.

3) Those who eat his flesh and drink his blood...Of course this is new testament saints...

4) Everyone who sees the Son and believes on him.. Of course this would include people who saw Jesus whether they died before or after his resurrection

This is not written to those who are alive and remain...it is written about those who are dead...to say the change only happens to people who are alive and remain is NONSENSE...ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.

To say this last day resurrection only pertains to people who were under the old testament is NONSENSE, as those who are identified to be resurrected plainly show it includes ALL BELIEVERS and not just those under the Old Testament...what does this mean? It means the Last Day has not come yet..it didn't come when the saints came out of their graves...ALL the saints were not resurrected so on its face it wasn't the last day resurrection Jesus spoke about in John 6 and John 11. On its face it isn't the Last Day resurrection because there are some 2000 years worth of saints who have died and were not included in it...Why? Because the last day has not yet come...Smoothing over the cracks by saying each person gets changed as they die is equally as wrong and contrary to what Paul said...

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

BUT STILL AWAITING THE LAST DAY TO BE RAISED UP?

This is absolutely scoffing at what Paul taught...No, it is not a false doctrine to think all will be resurrected at the last day...it is false to say the last day has already occured when there is NOTHING in the definition given by Jesus that has anything in common with the last day already taking place when the saints came out of their graves and went to Jerusalem...ALL were not resurrected to immortality...NONE of them being changed to immortality is not the same in any respect as what happens on the Last Day when ALL receive immortality...Because God said he would raise up ALL those that believe on the Last Day proves no one had previously been resurrected to immortality...yes, they came out of their graves, yes they went into Jerusalem, yes they were known of many, but they were only resurrected in mortal bodies and died again later, just like Lazarus and others who were raised from the dead. NONE of them have EVER put on immortality...none of them were EVER raised in incorruption...this is all reserved to occur at the Last Day for all saints...just as Paul said:

I have fought a good fight, I have kept the faith, I have finished my course, therefore is there a crown of life laid up for me which the Lord will give me AT THAT DAY...and not to me only, but to ALL them that love his appearing. 

Paul did not say ALL those that love him would receive their crown as soon as they die..NO he did not...He said ALL those who love his appearing would be rewarded AT THAT DAY...not individually, but collectively, and on the Last Day...We sleep in Jesus and AT THAT DAY we awake in his likeness and not before. 

ALL the saints had not even died at that point in time when the saints came out of the graves, so ALL could have NEVER been resurrected.

No Last Trumpet sounded at that time and no last trumpet has sounded yet..it will not sound until after the tribulation, so it surely did not sound some 2000 years ago. 

The points that do not agree with the last day premise already happening are contrary in every respect to what Paul taught:

There was no last trump...all were not changed...Christ did not come...the 7th trumpet did not sound...If that was the last day, then the saints would have been ruling over the nations...of course they didn't because the last day has not yet come. 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Under the law you died 'in sin' because the law couldn't give forgiveness for sin and wash you clean and so you were bound to death by sin AWAITING the last day to be raised up.  

The resurrection doesn't make anyone just or unjust...no one was waiting for the resurrection on the Last Day so they could be made free from sin...this is nonsense.

 The Last Day in John 6 IS NOT the time when the saints came out of their graves and went into Jerusalem..

This is pounding a square peg into a round hole...the very definition of what happens on the Last Day was NEVER fulfilled at that time. What happens on the Last Day can not be fulfilled at any other point in time except at the Second Coming.

It is then and only then that all the saints will be resurrected and rewarded ...the criteria itself prohibits it from happening before or after the Second Coming.

Gal. 4:5 

Quote

 

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

 

It said God sent forth his son to redeem those that were under the law...God made a provision for them just as he made a provision for us...

He did not say, God resurrected the Old Testament saints so those under the law could be redeemed...NO. He did not say that...the resurrection only raises people from the dead...the resurrection does not forgive sins...the resurrection does not justify anybody, as both the wicked and the righteous are resurrected...if they died in sin they will be resurrected unto damnation...if they died in righteousness they will be in the resurrection of the just.

It is nonsense to think those under the law had to be resurrected to free them from sin...absolutely false.