I am not understanding free will, I think!

[angeleyesGBU]

I was just reading a daily reading in the Bible 365 Club here, and something in the book of John, caught me by surprise. I made a comment there, but I can see that there is not a lot of participation there, so I copied what I said there, for you consideration and thoughts here, as follows.

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Interesting, I was just discussing with someone about this with someone yesterday, or at least something related to this. We were talking about what free will means. I know that I have free will, at least I was thinking I have free will. Just reading the verses above makes me realize that I don't know as much as I thought I did.

That verse hit me like a ton of bricks! How have I failed to notice it before? Apparently I admit I have some confusion now, I need to study more. As a church affiliated teacher at a Christian high school who teaches Bible for a living, I need to be better informed!

What I am thinking, is that God invites everyone to come to Jesus. I am certain I can make that case from the Bible. In that verse, I am tempted to think that is as much as God has made that invitation,  that permission is implied. It that is the situation, well, I am missing something.

If I cannot come to Jesus unless it is granted me by the Father, doesn't that say or seem to say that the Father makes the decision, and I cannot come unless He says yes, and therefore it would seem, sometimes He says no or perhaps, I cannot even try to come unless He does something? Maybe my free will is not quite as simple as I think!

[Dennis1209]

6 minutes ago, angeleyesGBU said:

I was just reading a daily reading in the Bible 365 Club here, and something in the book of John, caught me by surprise. I made a comment there, but I can see that there is not a lot of participation there, so I copied what I said there, for you consideration and thoughts here, as follows.

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Interesting, I was just discussing with someone about this with someone yesterday, or at least something related to this. We were talking about what free will means. I know that I have free will, at least I was thinking I have free will. Just reading the verses above makes me realize that I don't know as much as I thought I did.

That verse hit me like a ton of bricks! How have I failed to notice it before? Apparently I admit I have some confusion now, I need to study more. As a church affiliated teacher at a Christian high school who teaches Bible for a living, I need to be better informed!

What I am thinking, is that God invites everyone to come to Jesus. I am certain I can make that case from the Bible. In that verse, I am tempted to think that is as much as God has made that invitation,  that permission is implied. It that is the situation, well, I am missing something.

If I cannot come to Jesus unless it is granted me by the Father, doesn't that say or seem to say that the Father makes the decision, and I cannot come unless He says yes, and therefore it would seem, sometimes He says no or perhaps, I cannot even try to come unless He does something? Maybe my free will is not quite as simple as I think!

I have always wondered about that myself. The following are some of my notes on the subject. It is the best explanation I have heard and makes biblical sense to me. 

How does God’s foreknowledge, omniscience, predestination and our “free will” work? This explanation by Dr. Michael S. Heiser includes the Garden of Eden and the fall of man.

In this account, David appeals to the omniscient God to tell him about the future. In the first instance (23:1–5), David asks God whether he should go to the city of Keilah and whether he’ll successfully defeat the Philistines there. God answers in the affirmative in both cases. David goes to Keilah and indeed defeats the Philistines.

In the second section (23:6–13), David asks the Lord two questions: (1) will his nemesis Saul come to Keilah and threaten the city on account of David’s presence? And (2) will the people of Keilah turn him over to Saul to avoid Saul’s wrath? Again, God answers both questions affirmatively: “He will come down,” and “They will deliver you.”

Neither of these events that God foresaw ever actually happened. Once David hears God’s answers, he and his men leave the city. When Saul discovers this fact (v. 13), he abandons his trip to Keilah. Saul never made it to the city. The men of Keilah never turned David over to Saul.

Why is this significant? This passage clearly establishes that divine foreknowledge does not necessitate divine predestination. God foreknew what Saul would do and what the people of Keilah would do given a set of circumstances. In other words, God foreknew a possibility—but this foreknowledge did not mandate that the possibility was actually predestined to happen. The events never happened, so by definition they could not have been predestined. And yet the omniscient God did indeed foresee them. Predestination and foreknowledge are separable.

The theological point can be put this way:

That which never happens can be foreknown by God, but it is not predestined, since it never happened.

But what about things that do happen? They can obviously be foreknown, but were they predestined?

Since we have seen above that foreknowledge in itself does not necessitate predestination, all that foreknowledge truly guarantees is that something is foreknown. If God foreknows some event that happens, then he may have predestined that event. But the fact that he foreknew an event does not require its predestination if it happens. The only guarantee is that God foreknew it correctly, whether it turns out to be an actual event or a merely possible event.

The theological point can be put this way:

Since foreknowledge doesn’t require predestination, foreknown events that happen may or may not have been predestined.

This set of ideas goes against the grain of several modern theological systems. Some of those systems presume that foreknowledge requires predestination, and so everything must be predestined—all the way from the fall to the holocaust, to what you’ll choose off a dinner menu. Others dilute foreknowledge by proposing that God doesn’t foreknow all possibilities, since all possibilities cannot happen. Or they posit other universes where all the possibilities happen. These ideas are unnecessary in light of 1 Samuel 23 and other passages that echo the same fundamental idea: foreknowledge does not necessitate predestination.

These ideas are unnecessary in light of 1 Samuel 23 and other passages that echo the same fundamental idea: foreknowledge does not necessitate predestination.

Things we discussed earlier in this book allow us to take the discussion further. God may foreknow an event and predestine that event, but such predestination does not necessarily include decisions that lead up to that event. In other words, God may know and predestine the end—that something is ultimately going to happen—without predestining the means to that end.

We saw this precise relationship when we looked at decision making in God’s divine council. The passages in 1 Kings 22:13–23 and Daniel 4 informed us that God can decree something and then leave the means up to the decisions of other free-will agents. The end is sovereignly ordained; the means to that end may or may not be.

  IMPLICATIONS

An ancient Israelite would have embraced this parsing of foreknowledge, predestination, sovereignty, and free will. He would not have been encumbered by a theological tradition. She would have understood that this is the way God himself has decided his rule over human affairs will work. These are Yahweh’s decisions, and we accept them.

This has significant implications for not only the fall, but the presence of evil in our world in general. God is not evil. There is no biblical reason to argue that God predestined the fall, though he foreknew it. There is no biblical reason to assert that God predestined all the evil events throughout human history simply because he foreknew them.

There is also no biblical coherence to the idea that God factored all evil acts into his grand plan for the ages. This is a common, but flawed, softer perspective, adopted to avoid the previous notion that God directly predestines evil events. It unknowingly implies that God’s “perfect” plan needed to incorporate evil acts because—well, because we see them every day, and surely they can’t just happen, since God foreknows everything. Therefore (says this flawed perspective) they must just be part of how God decided best to direct history.

God does not need the rape of a child to happen so that good may come. His foreknowledge didn’t require the holocaust as part of a plan that would give us the kingdom on earth. God does not need evil as a means to accomplish anything.

God foreknew the fall. That foreknowledge did not propel the event. God also foreknew a solution to the fall that he himself would guarantee, a solution that entered his mind long before he laid the foundations of the earth. God was ready. The risk was awful, but he loved the notion of humanity too much to call the whole thing off.

Evil does not flow from a first domino that God himself toppled. Rather, evil is the perversion of God’s good gift of free will. It arises from the choices made by imperfect imagers, not from God’s prompting or predestination. God does not need evil, but he has the power to take the evil that flows from free-will decisions—human or otherwise—and use it to produce good and his glory through the obedience of his loyal imagers, who are his hands and feet on the ground now.

All of this means that what we choose to do is an important part of how things will turn out. What we do matters. God has decreed the ends to which all things will come. As believers, we are prompted by his Spirit to be the good means to those decreed ends.

Free will in the hearts and hands of imperfect beings, whether human or divine, means imagers can opt for their own authority in place of God’s.¹

¹ Heiser, M. S. (2015). The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible (First Edition, p. 68). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

 

 

[OneLight]

God knows the heart of a person and will judge according to what is in their heart.  He knows if someone is serious or just following suite.  Though it is His desire that all repent and be saved, only those whose hearts are in the right place will He call.

[Alive]

Briefly, I think what we learn from a broad study of scripture is that even in thenatural mans wil is constrained by many factors, yet can be considered free as natural man understand the principle.

where our will's capacity to choose 'Godward' is concerned lies the problem.

sin and fallen man is so distant from God, it dequires God's intervention. Hence John and Roman's.

Free on earth, but bound toward salvation. We still choose Christ via his word and Grace, but not before He does a work in us.

Heiser iswrong on his examples extrapolation.

[OneLight]

I see some of the problem being not trusting God enough for Him to make a way.  Since it is His desire that man not perish, even to the point of placing His own Son on the cross to die for us, He will also make a way from man to desire Him enough in order for man to make a decision.  Is it not His desire to send His Spirit to convict the world of sin?  Doesn't His Spirit witness to our spirit?  He does make a way, even when His attempt to draw us lands on deaf ears, blind eyes and a cold heart.

[angeleyesGBU]

59 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

How does God’s foreknowledge, omniscience, predestination and our “free will” work? This explanation by Dr. Michael S. Heiser includes the Garden of Eden and the fall of man.

Thanks Dennis for the helpful post.

I am at least casually aware of what are referred to as natural knowledge, middle knowledge, creative command, and free knowledge, and whether you know it or not, they have a lot to do with what you wrote.  I think it is helpful when we define terms, one of the being "foreknowledge". I an not convince that in the Bible, that always implies knowing things (like facts) ahead of time, though of course it can mean that certainly.

If we assume that for the moment, I don't see how predestination is avoidable (I am mostly just thinking out loud perhaps more that responding to what you wrote). What I mean to say about that, is that if God foreknew (as a hypothetical example) that Israel would one day again be a land of habitation for the Jewish people, then that event would certainly take place. 

If God says "If you will do this, then I will do that", then there is a conditional aspect which puts (at least seemingly) under the control of the person or people He is making a covenant with. God is not a liar, so if He says He will do something, then He will do it.

This can be tricky though. It sounds cut and dried, but is it? How do we know that God's "if", is up to the person to do? Is it not possible that God can cause a person to do the "if", thus converting the "if" to a "when"?

With the thought that God foreknows a fact, knows something will occur, that does not mean that He caused it to occur, and if that is true, then foreknowledge is not a cause and effect type of determinism. However, while that is interesting in a philosophical sense, I am not sure what practical difference it makes to we on the ground with our limited knowledge and thinking, who can observe outcomes, but ultimately cannot fully know the thoughts of a God whose ways are not our ways, and whose thoughts are not our thoughts.

If God truly foreknows something, in the sense of knowing facts before they have happened, then they WILL happen, just as He foreknew. If THAT is true, then whether He cause it or not, decided based on what He foreknew or not, of whatever other ways we care to frame the proposition are ultimately irrelevant from our perspective. If God foreknows (perhaps foresees is a better word (since knowledge is often about intimacy, not just factual awareness) and it does not come to pass, then what He foreknew turns out to be false knowledge, an error, not characteristic of an all knowing God.

I am curious enough to ask Dennis, since you highlighted this:

This passage clearly establishes that divine foreknowledge does not necessitate divine predestination.

What is it that you suppose foreknowledge and predestined mean in Romans 8 where it says:

 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I am thinking (and willing to change my mind) that perhaps when the Bible speaks to things involving free will, predestination, foreknowledge, that those terms do not always mean the same thing in every application, perhaps they are more malleable that we assume, and don't fit neatly into the boxes we fore them into.

Perhaps for example, God predestines some to come to Him, and yet while He may know what color car I will choose next time I buy a car, it is indeed my free will choice, with not predestination at all, yet in matters of being saved, coming to Jesus, that is something He caused - perhaps He in some way, caused me to come and then when I did according to His will, He granted me to come, just as Jesus said!

Thanks for you interest and thoughtful reply.

[Willa]

I also struggle with how this all works out.  

Joh 6:37  All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. Joh 6:38  For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. Joh 6:39  And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.                                                                                                                               Joh 6:40  For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Then we are told that even saving faith is a gift from God.  Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

This all leads me to believe that God sets us up and arranges circumstances that help us to believe.  He enlightens us and convicts us to see our need for a Savior.  He helps us to believe in spite of all that we are taught in school or in our homes to the contrary.  Moreover, often He doesn't tell us that He has anything to do with it but lets us think it is all our idea and our doing!  The Bible tells us otherwise.

Jesus said "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto Myself".   So we all get the chance.  But we all also have the freedom to harden our hearts in sin and unrepentance, to reject and refuse His loving grace.

Act 7:51  "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Joh 3:18  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.  Joh 3:19  And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.  Joh 3:20  For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

Then I encounter a verse like:   Act 13:48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.  

Then I have to go through the verses again and rethink it all. I used to have a pastor who said that we think we have chosen to follow Christ and be saved till long after when we look back and discover the God did it all.

Joh 15:16  You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit

Now read Eph 1:3-1:14.

[Alive]

God, indeed did it all. This is what election is. The elect. Chosen.

These words have meaning.

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, angeleyesGBU said:

Thanks Dennis for the helpful post.

I am at least casually aware of what are referred to as natural knowledge, middle knowledge, creative command, and free knowledge, and whether you know it or not, they have a lot to do with what you wrote.  I think it is helpful when we define terms, one of the being "foreknowledge". I an not convince that in the Bible, that always implies knowing things (like facts) ahead of time, though of course it can mean that certainly.

If we assume that for the moment, I don't see how predestination is avoidable (I am mostly just thinking out loud perhaps more that responding to what you wrote). What I mean to say about that, is that if God foreknew (as a hypothetical example) that Israel would one day again be a land of habitation for the Jewish people, then that event would certainly take place. 

If God says "If you will do this, then I will do that", then there is a conditional aspect which puts (at least seemingly) under the control of the person or people He is making a covenant with. God is not a liar, so if He says He will do something, then He will do it.

This can be tricky though. It sounds cut and dried, but is it? How do we know that God's "if", is up to the person to do? Is it not possible that God can cause a person to do the "if", thus converting the "if" to a "when"?

With the thought that God foreknows a fact, knows something will occur, that does not mean that He caused it to occur, and if that is true, then foreknowledge is not a cause and effect type of determinism. However, while that is interesting in a philosophical sense, I am not sure what practical difference it makes to we on the ground with our limited knowledge and thinking, who can observe outcomes, but ultimately cannot fully know the thoughts of a God whose ways are not our ways, and whose thoughts are not our thoughts.

If God truly foreknows something, in the sense of knowing facts before they have happened, then they WILL happen, just as He foreknew. If THAT is true, then whether He cause it or not, decided based on what He foreknew or not, of whatever other ways we care to frame the proposition are ultimately irrelevant from our perspective. If God foreknows (perhaps foresees is a better word (since knowledge is often about intimacy, not just factual awareness) and it does not come to pass, then what He foreknew turns out to be false knowledge, an error, not characteristic of an all knowing God.

I am curious enough to ask Dennis, since you highlighted this:

This passage clearly establishes that divine foreknowledge does not necessitate divine predestination.

What is it that you suppose foreknowledge and predestined mean in Romans 8 where it says:

 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I am thinking (and willing to change my mind) that perhaps when the Bible speaks to things involving free will, predestination, foreknowledge, that those terms do not always mean the same thing in every application, perhaps they are more malleable that we assume, and don't fit neatly into the boxes we fore them into.

Perhaps for example, God predestines some to come to Him, and yet while He may know what color car I will choose next time I buy a car, it is indeed my free will choice, with not predestination at all, yet in matters of being saved, coming to Jesus, that is something He caused - perhaps He in some way, caused me to come and then when I did according to His will, He granted me to come, just as Jesus said!

Thanks for you interest and thoughtful reply.

Like everyone else, I do not have all the answers but do my best to understand. There are various thoughts and interpretations on this complex issue, and there are many scholars with initials behind their names with opposing views. I am only relaying what I think and makes sense to me.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

In my mind, omniscience does not preclude predestination based on our free will and choice. Knowing something before it occurs is not what predestines; it is the choice, act, or inaction that condemns or saves.

The way I understand it, an omniscient God can predestine us, being the elect, chosen from the foundation of the world, because He knows the beginning from the end. The choices we will make, our final decision, and our destiny. If I look at it that way, yes, I would say we are predestined. But the choices and decisions with free will are our own.

Reading about King David inquiring to the Lord about his choices in 1 Samuel 23: I believe it supports my view. The notes I posted quoting Dr. Michael S. Heiser are well explained, and I tend to agree with his hermeneutics.

Carefully read 1 Samuel chapter twenty-three, and we can discuss it if you would like. The Lord knows the outcome and any decisions and choices of free will, things that never even occurred.

I was thinking about predestination another way. A science that is not science may disagree with another thought I have. We are not predestined or born to be murderers, pedophiles, gays, or rapists, and we are not born with a murder, rapist, gay gene, or DNA. These are influenced, learned, taught, and adopted traits and behaviors that are free will decisions, choices, and actions.

Can anyone present a debate or argument contrary to my predestination character thought above?

[Selah7]

 

4 hours ago, angeleyesGBU said:

I was just reading a daily reading in the Bible 365 Club here, and something in the book of John, caught me by surprise. I made a comment there, but I can see that there is not a lot of participation there, so I copied what I said there, for you consideration and thoughts here, as follows.

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Interesting, I was just discussing with someone about this with someone yesterday, or at least something related to this. We were talking about what free will means. I know that I have free will, at least I was thinking I have free will. Just reading the verses above makes me realize that I don't know as much as I thought I did.

That verse hit me like a ton of bricks! How have I failed to notice it before? Apparently I admit I have some confusion now, I need to study more. As a church affiliated teacher at a Christian high school who teaches Bible for a living, I need to be better informed!

What I am thinking, is that God invites everyone to come to Jesus. I am certain I can make that case from the Bible. In that verse, I am tempted to think that is as much as God has made that invitation,  that permission is implied. It that is the situation, well, I am missing something.

If I cannot come to Jesus unless it is granted me by the Father, doesn't that say or seem to say that the Father makes the decision, and I cannot come unless He says yes, and therefore it would seem, sometimes He says no or perhaps, I cannot even try to come unless He does something? Maybe my free will is not quite as simple as I think!

I truly believe that salvation involves a "choice.”  Conversion does not remove a person's "will."  In other words, where earlier, a sinner decided to reject God and all that is good, he now chooses to repent and believe in Christ. Although grace certainly is irresistible, drawing a person to Christ, a person must be willing to accept the precious gift being offered, and this requires the free will.   You see, regeneration alone doesn’t save anyone.  Rather, it is when an individual believes in Christ that he is saved, JUSTIFIED, deemed not guilty, and Christ's righteousness IMPUTED to him.   …selah