Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The truth is, we may not all be reigning with Him during the 1,000 years, BUT we'll all be there for His Kingdom just the same, even if we're not among those who are given the responsibility and privilege to reign with Him!

Okay. I tend toward this too. In fact for decades my thinking was all from all time reigning. That's what I first was taught many years ago.

Of late I'm wondering about Rev 20:11-15 and how this doesn't look like it's a single predetermined destiny for all appearing at the GWT.

In fact, I think it reads like a just judgement based on what is in the books and what name is written in the book of life. 

And I'm not camping on Rev 20:4. The verse needs to be applied to my understanding of the resurrection, and who participates and when. 

In my mind there is a great deal of clarity when this is applied to the order and nature of the resurrection. It's not a false statement. It's not a half truth. It's not deceptive, therefore it's a true statement, just like all the other resurrection verses throughout the NT are true statements.

That application of Rev 20:4 to all the other truth is what I'm doing.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The Unseen Realm becoming The Seen Realm, doesn't change whether someone has received eternal salvation or not.  

If in this earthen vessel you had received ETERNAL SALVATION

You will STILL have eternal salvation in the heavenly vessel aka IMMORTALITY

ON the other hand

if in this earthen vessel you had NOT received THE GIFT OF ETERNAL SALVATION and so had been mortal (going to stand in judgment at the GWTJ 2nd death)

then in the 'heavenly vessel' you are STILL GOING TO BE MORTAL (going to stand in judgment at the GWTJ 2nd death)




OR put another way

When Christ comes a soul has either been marked or not.

HEAVEN by way of CHRIST is coming to reign upon the earth for the Lords Day

ENDING the 'flesh and blood' made of the dust of the ground Age aka 'yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death' days

Thanks.

I don't think that's how it is but I also don't have enough information for even an adequate understanding.

And I don't want to discuss it here as it's not anywhere near topical.

 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I don't doubt for one moment that verse 5 is about those in verse 4, but verse 6 goes on...

Revelation 20:6 (KJV)

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Which looks like an iteration of v. 4 with added truth. The 2nd death has no power over those in the first resurrection; the first resurrection consists of those who were beheaded[maybe from all time], and those who over came the power and authority of the beast. 

It's not somehow including every believer from all time. 'On such', those participating in the 1st resurrection, the 2nd death has no power. That's not every believer from all time from this bit of evidence. 

Maybe it is proven elsewhere, but here it is not. 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Annnyway, consider this, also from Psalms 37...

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

I can dig that!  Or this...

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Yes. This is a fact of destiny. It says nothing about the actual identity of the group in question or exactly when this will occur.

For decades I heard it's every one who sat in a pew on Sunday. That's not the case. 

Who are the meek? How is meekness judged? What did they do and from whence do they cometh? These questions are not answered here.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Or this...

22 For such as be blessed of Him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of Him shall be cut off.

Or this...

34 Wait on the LORD, and keep His way, and He shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

These are precious promises revealed by God to believers a thousand years before Christ came.  And, when Christ came, He reinforced what was written of old. 

True. But much like the Jews wandering in the desert for 40 years not all of them were allowed into the promised land. The Jews did not inherit the promised land based on ethnicity, lineage, group association, or status. 

There were clear reasons why God did not allow all of them in. Even Moses was not allowed in. This parallel should be kept in mind when applying this idea to Who is Resurrected, and When?

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Consider from Matthew 5:

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

This is from His Sermon on the Mount, where He also taught us to pray thus, from Matthew 6...

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy name.

10 Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Back to the Old Testament, I'm reminded of this from Daniel's prophecies, in chapter 7...

18 But the saints of the Most High shall take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

I feel, from decades of experience and listening, that Christians are prejudging vast groups. What is the exact identity of the saints, the meek, the priests and kings of God? What did they do? How does God view His saints? 

The 'saints' of the Most High...who are they? What did they do? What attributes do they possess? Does God say here? No. It's a general statement Christians interpret as whomever strides through the door of the building on Sunday. 

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

And this...

27 And the Kingdom and Dominion, and the greatness of the Kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.

And this prophetic puzzle piece from Isaiah 24 also fits right in there...

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, AND BEFORE HIS ANCIENTS GLORIOUSLY.

Really these are only pieces of the puzzle when gap filling. In all the OT verses presented thus far crucial information is missing; the natural inclination to fill in gaps takes over, personal perception reigns.

Don't feel like I'm singling you out. 

Most people do it. 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Again, the opening part of Revelation 20:4 reads, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:  AND..."  Those being spoken of here are not the same ones being spoken of after the colon and the "AND" that I have emphasized. 

I'm sure about that but let's say you are correct. If that's the case, logically then only those after the colon, and the and, are the ones who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. Just like I have been discussing. 

This would open up a new can of worms about what the thrones mean and who is seated upon them. It's not revealed here, if it's a different group than the rest of Rev 20:4-6. I see no evidence defining or revealing who this supposed different group of, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" is nor an identity.

An identification here is assumed, supposed, speculated; in other words, a gap is once again filled. 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

There is a precious promise for those spoken of before my emphasized "AND" and there is a precious promise for those spoken of after my emphasized "AND".  And, OF ALL OF THOSE spoken of in this verse, John writes this:  "and THEY lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."  All very much in tune with everything that I have shown so far.

No. " And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." has an antecedent, and it is " And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands."

You said in an earlier post the antecedent to "Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge." is a chapter earlier and they are of the army that comes with Christ to slay millions. 

You also said

"Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge."

and

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands."

are two distinct groups classified by the term 'they' and 'Them'.

'Them' in the 1st sentence is not them same group as 'They' in the last sentence. 'They' in the last sentence refers to "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands."

 And that's all by what you said. So the promise to live and reign with Christ for 1000 years is for these only: "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands."

Although, the thrones we see and the 'them' seated upon is the destiny of those we see here: "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands."

Not of an army of angels come to battle, but for those who overcame the beast who were dead. The army in Rev 19 isn't dead and didn't come to life.

 

 

[DeighAnn]

21 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Paul was talking to his brethren, D.  Elect.  You gotta stay in context. 

I am staying in context.  It the use of the word EVERYONE without being specific to who EVERYONE includes that is causing the issue.  

We agree the BRETHREN are the alive and remaining, correct?

We agree the ALIVE are changed, correct?

We agree the CHANGED are EVER with the Lord, correct?

We agree the EVER with the Lord receive their immortality, correct?


ESTABLISHING ANYONE and everyone who is CHANGED receives their immortality, correct?



SO, if EVERYONE were to include those who have taken the mark of the beast, and EVERYONE who is changed receives their immortality,

THEN THOSE who take the mark of the beast CAN NOT be A PART of EVERYONE, can they?

So, now that it has been established that those with the mark of the beast CANNOT be included in 'everyone' that is CHANGED because

they don't receive their IMMORTALITY and
they also have to have a FIRST DEATH seeing's as how they have to face a second death

that those who have received their immortality don't have to face





WHAT HAPPENS to those who have taken the mark of the beast since they CAN'T be a part of the brethren who are alive and remaining and changed and receive immortality?



The reason I want to drop it is because I keep asking the same question and can't get the simple straight answer that STAYS in the context of what is written 
 

Edited February 13, 2023 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Thanks.

I don't think that's how it is but I also don't have enough information for even an adequate understanding.

And I don't want to discuss it here as it's not anywhere near topical.

 

Who is resurrected, and when?   THAT is the name of the thread, correct?

How do you FIGURE going from this day to the Lords Day IS NOT on topic? 

How can the UNSEEN realm becoming the SEEN realm NOT be the topic when that is the day the alive and remaining are raised up and given new bodies?  AKA who is resurrected and when.  That is the day when the DEAD are resurrected, aka who is resurrected and when.  

MAYBE you should start a topic ON WHAT YOU specifically WISH to discuss instead of trying to get me to stop discussing this one.   

[Uriah]

On 2/12/2023 at 8:13 AM, Diaste said:

Yes. It's would have to be the 'world to come' that is the subject of 'the end of the world'.

 

On 2/12/2023 at 8:13 AM, Diaste said:

From what I see the end of the world is at the end. The coming of Christ is not the end of the world since the millennial kingdom is 1000 years long and Jesus reigns on the earth for that time. Then it's the end of the world.

I disagree. I will stick with the scriptural evidence.

Dan 7:27- And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Eph3:21- Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

I think Paul was referring this (essentially, forever);

Isa 45:17- But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

You have heard the term, "end of the age" as an alternate to, "end of the world."

Isa 45:18- For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

I am not one of those who thinks the planet will be reduced to particles, I don't think you do either.

There are three defining terms/phrases that make up the way it is understood in scripture and its contemporary readers. They are;

2 Pe 3:6- Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Mat 13:40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (32 times)

Mat 12:32- And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (5 times)

Take note especially of Mat 13:40.

 

 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

18 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

No unbeliever will be resurrected into an "incorruptible body".  In fact, the reason the LOF is also called the "second death" is precisely because their resurrected and still mortal bodies will die again when they are cast into the LOF.

ALL THE DEAD who rise receive an incorruptible body.  IN FACT the reason the lake of fire is the second death is because ONLY GOD is in charge of the 2nd death.  


CAN we be SURE there will be no more DEATH except by the lake of fire once we are changed? 


 YES because it is written
 

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


So WHERE would anyone 'killed' GO if there is NO MORE STING OF DEATH?  Where if there is no more victory of the GRAVE?  

That's right, the lake of fire.  HENCE no more corruptible bodies.  We will be like the angels in heaven. 

DID you know there were BAD ANGELS in heaven?  They got CAST OUT WITH SATAN. 

Showing that ANGELIC BODIES/spiritual bodies/ heavenly bodies/celestial bodies don't have to be IMMORTAL as there are angels in darkness in chains reserved for the lake of fire,


Did you know there are no HUMANS aka dust of the earth men in heaven?  That's right, just as angels.  Do you think the 'rich man' in paradise was in his flesh body?  NO, cause the BLOOD which was the life of his earthen body had ceased to pump hence no life in that body SO THE ONLY ONE LEFT would be the spiritual one.  BUT if and/or when someone CANT discern between the carnal and the spiritual, it just doesn't compute on any level and the same thing just keeps getting repeated over and over while the things that show it to be untrue keep getting skipped over.  

BUT HEY, if you have some verse that says


CARCASSes will be coming back to life

 as opposed to what is written about them going back to the dust of the earth, I am all ears.  

 

[DeighAnn]

21 hours ago, Selah7 said:

@DeighAnn

I’m going to continue …

1 Cor. 15:53 
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Once more, there are two distinct events that take place when Jesus Christ arrives at the last trump. 

The first is that we are ALL "raised up" or "changed" from flesh bodies to spiritual bodies, or from corruptible flesh to incorruptible spirit, and it applies to everyone, both the good and the bad. 

The second event is known as the First Resurrection to Eternal Life. 

Christians' confusion would be clarified and resolved if people just took the time to comprehend the distinction between the resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the soul to immortality. 

No, there are more events as a matter of FACT the first thing we read of WHEN CHRIST RETURNS IS the destruction of those destroying the world FROM KINGS ON DOWN TO SLAVES.  Death takes place FIRST.  


Yes, the ORDER in which things will take place remains the same but THEY AREN'T the only things that take place.  You have to give ROOM for more KNOWLEDGE in the verses.  


Yes, the dead are going to rise BUT FIRST THE DEAD HAVE TO BECOME DEAD.  

Does that CHANGE the dead rise and we are changed?  NO, it just ADDS the death of the dead before the dead rise.  Remains JUST AS TRUE, but we have to BUILD upon the foundations.  That is the miracle of Gods words.  They are true AS WRITTEN, and even when you ADD other events spoken of in the CORRECT order they STILL remain true, just not on the level you learned them.    

 

nd I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings,

Kings, the highest rank of humans

and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them,

those who faithfully serve them

and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

those they RULE over down to the lowest of men

NONE OF THEM SAVED FROM DESTRUCTION THROUGH THE GIFT OF SALVATION

 

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

What else do we read?  The tares are gathered to be burned AND THEN the rest are gathered to be with the Lord.  

DOESNT change that the dead rise first and the alive and remaining are changed, we have just added detail.  HOW can we know this comes first?  Because the DEAD don't rise twice when Christ returns so the MARKED have to have their FIRST DEATH as they HAVE NOT BEEN SAVED FROM IT.  



CHRISTIANS would be wise to make the DISTICTION between the DEAD and the LIVING.  

  Until you can find it written some other way, THIS is what should be believed. 

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


IF you believe WE FOLLOW HIM, they you HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO BELIEVE

WE ARE RAISED UP IN A SPIRITUAL BODY. 




because here is what ISN'T written

it is sown a natural body, it is raised WITHOUT A BODY but will return for one.  

Isn't that what you are saying?

[DeighAnn]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 Their human spirit is "made alive" or "born again"

WHAT?

Those who have NOT been born again, have a human spirit or they would be in the grave.   Our human/carnal/flesh spirit is what animates our bodies, no spirit no life so THAT doesn't make any sense at all.

It is our SPIRITUAL SPIRIT that is born FROM ABOVE so that God can dwell within us.  That is what makes us a NEW CREATURE.  

It is our human or flesh spirit that is at enmity with God, that what we kill in order to let our spiritual spirit take over the desires of our flesh/human spirit.