Who is Resurrected, and When?

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's not how it works. A positive assertion must be supported by the one making the assertion. Burden of proof is on you for this one. Saying, "I said it, now prove me wrong." is logically fallacious.

IF I was using MY WORDS AND THOUGHTs I would agree.  But what I am putting forth are the WORDS OF THE LORD.  

YOU are the one making the assertion that THOSE WHO NEVER DIE are in fact THE DEAD.  

I am asking you to SHOW HOW ONE GOES FROM NEVER DIE TO DEAD.  

AS MY assertion is WE NEVER DIE so can't be THE DEAD.  

 

 

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

You saying it is not evidence. Since this does become a 'When?' question pertinent to the 2nd resurrection, GWT, sheep and goats judgement...

John 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Clearly there is a resurrection of believers in Jesus Christ AT THE LAST DAY.

When is that last day? After the 1000 years. 

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE CAME BEFORE THE NEW COVENANT WAS BROUGHT FORTH. 

 

So how is it YOU ARE APPLYING THEM TO THE NEW COVENANT?  

Those under the law were NEVER TOLD THEY WOULD NEVER DIE.  The law of sin and death 

is what MADE THEM A PART OF THE DEAD.  


Under the NEW COVENANT THEY NEVER DIE.  

How is it this is not being DEALT WITH?   It's like TALKING TO THOSE who don't know that GOD separated the nation of Israel into 2 nations.  WE CAN'T apply

the promises and prophecies given to the Northen nation to the Southern nation and EXPECT A SINGLE BIT OF TRUTH to come from it.  The ONLY  thing that happens when we do is never ending CONFUSION

So this is NO DIFFERENT.  We have to rightly divide. 

Applying the OLD COVENTANT laws to those under the NEW COVENANT will NEVER WORK.  If it did there would have been no need for a new one.  

THEY DIED under the OLD.  WE DON'T under the new.  

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Ages past:

Col. 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but has now been revealed to his saints.

Ages future: 

Eph. 2:7 that in the ages to come he might show the riches of his grace...

Hey, thanks Will.

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

You are misconstruing scripture to fit a personal perception.

How?  by taking what is written as what is meant?  

Those who die follow Him  THAT IS WRITTEN

The LIVING shall not precede the dead THAT IS WRITTEN. 

so those who died before the two witnesses PRECEEDED the two witnesses by way of WHAT IS WRITTEN because those who died had ALREADY FOLLOWED HIM before the two witnesses were killed


HOW IS THAT 'MISCONSTRUING' SCRITPURES?  what personal perception do I have that that would cover?

 

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

You assume this means immediately upon the expiration of the flesh. Prove it with scripture. This is all 'sown' and 'raised'; the fact of it, an overview, a principal, the order, and not timing, nor exactly "When?"

A farmer plants seeds then must wait for months till the harvest. You are thinking when the seed is sown it's immediately harvested. 

This is not the case.

ME ASSUME?  THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN.  

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

If the body produces the seed and God gives every seed a body, then how can we raise up NOT in a body?



So, all you need to produce is 

It is sown a natural body, that ceases to be a 'being', and a spirit is raised up and then

It is sown a SPIRIT come down from heaven that is sown, then,  it is raised a spiritual body

aka Yea, hath God said  


 Why would GOD who will change us in the twinkle of an eye, resort to the way a seed grows in the earth?   But I guess if one is searching for excuses...to back up a doctrine more important that what is written...so be it.  

Do you have these discussions with God?  Because when you do, you are not going to be any less the you than you are right now.  As we have born the image...we will bear the image and the things done in this body aka WHO WE ARE WILL STILL BE WHO WE ARE. 




And it isn't what WE THINK or assume or conclude that keeps us alive

3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Maybe this will help

So when God asks me 'why did you teach you were raised up in a spiritual body',

I am going to point to 1 Cor 15 and say it is written

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 

AND ALSO

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


And I am going to point to 

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. RV 22

AND if He lets me say anything else I am going to point to
 

24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. MK 12

Maybe, if you just show me what Scriptures you will be giving God for what you believe, I will be able to understand what you are believing to be Gods truth. 

Who knows, maybe that will show us just where the 'misconstruing' is taking place.  

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Sarcasm?

No.  
I believe I have come to the end of your comments and so will leave your thread except I have one post to go check on from Retro that I may just be able to leave as it.  

I would wish you good luck if I could, as I truly wish nothing but the best for you, but instead will just pray that you pray upon what has been shown here as 

I never forget the peace you brought to me in explaining to me

12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

[DeighAnn]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Thank you for this introduction to the details of what you believe. I await any changes or additions you'd like to make.

Thanks again.

There are a few things I would change but not enough to make much of a difference and are not yet set firm so going to leave it as is.  Diaste would like this discussion to proceed as it has since May so I am bowing out.  I am sure this will come up in another thread someday and so will have to see you there.  Thank you 

[Diaste]

On 2/14/2023 at 7:31 AM, Uriah said:

As for me, the words of Jesus are enough. 

Mat 13:40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

There are only 3 choices; 

"The world that then was", "this world", and, "the world to come"

One is gone, one is present, the other has no end. To me, it is obvious.

Good luck finding what you seek. 

Sure. It's not so much a hunt but to get a discussion going. It's right to talk about these things. 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

AFTER THIS, there are judgments based upon merits that will further determine their positions. The Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20 is one such judgment, and there will be a judgment by the Messiah at the beginning of His Kingdom for those who have been faithful to God and rewards are given to those who have been faithful.

There is also another judgment that LOOKS like these which will also be based upon merits - to a degree: the judgment of the sheep and the goats, which also happens soon after the Messiah's Coming. However, this judgment is a WAR TRIBUNAL! It is based on how well "one has treated the Messiah's brethren," and I believe that the "brethren" here is primarily the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, but also includes those of other nations who have accepted that Yeeshuwa` is the Messiah of God, the Son of God, who will reign from Jerusalem for a thousand years.

Where you see three I see one. I can find evidence to speculate on the possibility of two, but that to doesn't ring true.

What I'm convinced we are seeing is multiple aspects of the same event, and all references to the end of the age judgement, when Christ sits on His glorious throne, are pointing to a single time when all are judged. 

Maybe that isn't correct. Maybe it is. I refrain from multiplying in these things as I have seen that error before. People in general try to pack the eschatological timeline into a neatly arranged suitcase they can understand. 

I'm convinced our understanding of these things must align with the prophetic utterance of divine truth, not the other way 'round. So that being said, sheep and goats and GWT are one and the same, details are supplied in Matt 25 and Rev 20 that merge, not separate.

I guess we'll find out. 

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For the Scriptures say, 

This clearly ties in with most believers appearing at the GWT.

In Rev 7 the group about the throne has already been judged.

In Rev 20:4 that group live and reigns with Christ for 1000 years and has already been judged.

All the rest, maybe you and I, wait for 1000 years. 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  That is how what was written was translated but isn't what is written. 

JESUS SAID YOU WOULD NEVER DIE.  That is the ONLY foundation you can build upon when it comes to what happens to who (or whom?) 

ANYTHING AND ANYONE saying ANYTHING DIFFERENT isn't of GOD.  Pure and simple.  IF THAT can be changed then WE CAN DEPEND UPON NOTHING in the words of God.  


And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given to them and the souls of those having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word  of God and those who not did worship the beast nor the image of him and not did take the mark upon the forehead and upon the hand of them.  And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years


 2198. zaó ►
Strong's Concordance
zaó: to live
Original Word: ζάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: zaó
Phonetic Spelling: (dzah'-o)
Definition: to live
Usage: I live, am alive.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2198 záō – to live, experience God's gift of life. See 2222 (zōē).

Does that end at the death of body number 1?  It CANT Jesus said NEVER DIE and so never die is what WE BELIEVE, no matter what.  


So it is IMPOSSIBLE to 'come to life' having ALREADY come to life.  (with exceptions, NOT ON HIS END but on ours before the 1st death)


BUT what you are proposing is WE DO DIE and so will 'come to life'

rather than as Jesus said WE NEVER DIE, so CONTINUE on living.  

 

 
 The gift of Salvation is to AVOID death and destruction. 

meaning GODS PEOPLE GO TO GOD

SO THAT the DEVIL, death, the grave, NEVER GETS A HOLD OF THEM, not for even a second.  

THAT was the problem WITH THE LAW.  IF the 'flesh' had been stronger, the LAW would have prevented GODS PEOPLE from going to hell.  BUT WE are weak and can't fight against the desires of the flesh with ONLY OUR OWN WILL.  Knowledge and wisdom just wasn't enough.  So, almost EVERYONE died in one kind of a sin or the other.  GOD DIDN'T LIKE THAT.  So, GOD GOT RID OF THAT LOOPHOLE by coming and DYING HIMSELF to EFFECT a CHANGE, to make it so those who LOVE HIM even though they mess up sometimes, can get back to RIGHT with Him as the change of heart comes about aka repentance and enter into a 'covenant' of sorts that covers that problem even upon death of the first body.  

but

Mans words have come up with we DO DIE and have to COME BACK TO LIFE AGAIN,   I not yelling just trying to make a points that I find are darn near impossible to make.  



So, those who ARE CONTINUING ON WITH THEIR LIFE,  ARE RETURNING with Christ having followed Him or they were those who were alive and remaining and who were changed, BUT THEY NEVER DIED and so NEVER CAME back to life.  

Also, the alive and remaining are changed, so EVEN their flesh body doesn't die, they are just transformed, so they wouldn't be 'coming to life' would they?



body one MORTAL

body two EITHER mortal or immortal


BODY ONE MORTAL - this realm

body one BLOOD is the life of, we are born into it, when it dies, it quickens our 2nd body and 'we' our spirit/soul is moved, transferred, given, grown, (IDK how but suspect it is alot like the alive and remaining are changed), into body two and body one goes back to the dust from whence it came, never to be USED ever again. Not by the saved nor the unsaved.  It is a one and done for everyone. 


BODY TWO comes in 2 sizes either IMMORTAL OR MORTAL


1st resurrection is an IMMORTAL RESURRECTION that comes at and from the death of body one because we NEVER DIE (immortal).  We receive an incorruptible body,  that depends upon the SEED 'this body of life' produced. 

Again, we are raised up FROM BODY ONE, at the death of it, because WE FOLLOW HIM.  No 'detours'.  No stopping in hell for a bit, no returning to hell for anything, ever. 


MORTAL RESURRECTION OF THE SPIRITUAL BODY (not of the 1st type of resurrection)

IS different 

because they don't rise up from the body at death at all but 

but they descend into hell, 

THE PLACE of the DEAD,

and have to remain in bondage, a captive of hell, death, the grave, the corruption,

STUCK THERE until CHRIST returns.  



2nd resurrection is of the MORTAL SPIRITUAL BODY AND is for those WHO DO DIE. 

Those who have NOT received immortality BEFORE 1st death.

These NEVER CAME TO FAITH.  These are the UNSAVED, UNBELIEVERS.  These will 'come back to living' but not to immortality. 

When their body dies they GO TO HELL.  Their SPIRITUAL BODY SEES CORRUPTION by having to remain in bondage to death and hell in the grave.  The corruption is of their spiritual body, as their natural body, like ALL bodies just goes back to the dust of the earth never to be 'raised up again'.

They have to WAIT for Christ to return to be RESURRECTED from the corruption, hell, death.  

EVEN WHEN they are resurrected from the corruption IN THEIR SPIRITUAL BODY THEY STILL REMAIN MORTAL because they face 2nd death in the LOF.  THEY come back to life in the way of they are released from the grave, SO THAT THEY MAY DO WORKS, SO THAT they might get their names put in the book of life and avoid the 2nd death.  

IT IS ONLY at the GWTJ that those who were raised from the corruption aka THE DEAD, might go from being THE DEAD to one of the NEVER DIE AGAIN at what would be the 2nd resurrection of souls to life, 

if their WORKS get their name in the book of life.  

because if not, they go into the LOF, the 2nd death which is of both body NUMBER 2 and the soul.

Have no doubt, GOD can kill an incorruptible body, even though MAN CAN'T.  
 

I'm just going to refer you to this:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

The idea of which you speak occurs at the last trump. Not before.

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I do not know what the 'mainstream' have taught, EVER.  Most likely I know LESS than anyone you will ever meet.  I learned the words of God by one person who never mentioned them and I NEVER have done any sort of 'seeking' into them.  

BECAUSE I have a terrible memory, I KEPT myself from ALL OTHER words so that I could be sure where what I knew came from.  

UP UNTIL I started coming to these forums I would say I didn't even have a 5% bit of knowledge of any of the religions of the world.  

So, ALL I know is what I have received from what is written.  Maybe that is why it is so easy for me to see when something is from 'what is written' and when something is not.

Can't decide if that's a good thing or not. A comparison is healthy.

How do you know a straight line if you don't know the crooked line?