Who is Resurrected, and When?

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

"Yes We Disagree", yes the book of life is seen in Daniel 12:1 below, you can deny this all you want, it's simple, clear, and easy to understand, for those that don't have a pre-determined bias in a Millennial Kingdom on this earth

"Yes" this book will be opened "Once" at the final judgement (The End)

"Yes" Daniel 12:1-2 is a "Parallel" teaching of the GWTJ seen in Revelation 20:14-15

Daniel goes into great detail on the events and timing, 

1.)Daniel states below that there will be a time of great trouble never experienced before in history (The Great Tribulation) and he uses the words "At That Time"

2.) Daniel clearly states that at this time (The Book Of Life) is opened in (Final Judgement), "Everyone That Shall Be Found Written In The Book"

3.) Daniel clearly shows that the resurrection of "All" takes place at this time, "Everlasting Life" "Everlasting Contempt"

Conclusion: Daniel clearly teaches that at the time of the great tribulation that the resurrection of "All" takes place in the final judgement, the book of life will be opened "Once"

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 
 Isn't this a 'repost' of the post I responded to?

Am I now supposed to 'copy and paste' my response again?  

Did you know there ACTUALLY is a THREAD somewhere in the forums called 'LAST' or something to that effect, that you might want to look into. It's really quite entertaining.  I think it has been going on for years as everyone there has to be last too.  I believe it was started specifically for that purpose, but I could be wrong as to the intention.

Anyways, I'll let the first response stand, and bid you adieu thereby ending the 'last' thing before it gets started.  

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 
 Isn't this a 'repost' of the post I responded to?

Am I now supposed to 'copy and paste' my response again?  

Did you know there ACTUALLY is a THREAD somewhere in the forums called 'LAST' or something to that effect, that you might want to look into. It's really quite entertaining.  I think it has been going on for years as everyone there has to be last too.  I believe it was started specifically for that purpose, but I could be wrong as to the intention.

Anyways, I'll let the first response stand, and bid you adieu thereby ending the 'last' thing before it gets started.  

It's not just the very clear argument in Daniel 12:1-2, it's throughout the entire scripture, when Jesus returns its (The End)

A Few Examples:

1.) Daniel 12:1-2 "At That Time" of the great tribulation, the book of life is opened (Final Judgement), the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked are seen together at this time (The End)

2.) 1 Corinthians Chapter 15, verses 23-26 clearly shows Jesus returns, the resurrection takes place, "Then Cometh The End", verse 26 states the last enemy destroyed is death 

Verses 51-54 clearly teaches that at the resurrection mortal turns into immortal, the last enemy is defeated as "death is swallowed up in victory" (The End)

3.) Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, I have posted the verses as seen below, showing this fact "Several Times" its a "Global" event that sees the heavens and earth dissolved by fire at the (Appearing/Revealing) of Jesus Christ (The End)

Conclusion: You deny the presented truth of scripture, in exchange for a pre-determined bias in a Millennial Kingdom on this earth that will never take place, it's that simple

Jesus Is The Lord

Once Again:

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV

6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV

5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV

15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Edited March 6, 2023 by truth7t7

[DeighAnn]

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." 1 Corinthians 15:24 KJV

THE END IS OF 'THE LAST DAYS'  how do we KNOW THIS FOR SURE?


"Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, HIS REWARD IS WITH HIM AND HIS WORK BEFORE HIM." Isaiah 62:11 KJV



 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

1.) Daniel 12:1-2 "At That Time" of the great tribulation, the book of life is opened (Final Judgement), the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked are seen together at this time (The End)

NO, DANIELS PEOPLE ARE DELIVERED. 


 

BUT those who AWAKE don't stand in judgment 
BECAUSE THE GWTH COMES 

after
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


after
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 

after
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

after
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

after
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

after
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

after
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

after
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

after
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

after
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

AND THEN
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

WE SEE THE GWTJ of both the just and the unjust (hence the books and book)
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

AND THEN WE SEE THIS
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


NOTHING you have ever put forth has shown THIS TAKING PLACE IN ANY OTHER ORDER AND THE VERSES YOU PUT FORTH don't say it either.  

THE END OF THE END OF TIMES.  YOU CAN'T GET RID OF THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN AND UNTIL YOU CAN SHOW IT IN GODS WORDS

YOUR 'BECAUSE I SAID SO' ISN'T DOING ANYTHING but showing

you have NO OTHER KNOWLEDGE to put forth. 

IF what you SAY is GODS TRUTH then THERE IS A WITNESS FOR IT IN HIS WORDS.  

You ARE MAKING UP YOUR OWN DOCTRINE out of ONE WORD without any regard to what it does to what is taught.  


 

16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


You have BEEN SHOWN the err of THE INTERPRETATION of the use of 'the end'.  You have been given GODS WORDS time and again from many different people in many different ways and you CHOSE to reject them.  You give nothing showing any other time for the events rejected to occur.  

 

4And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.

5For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;

6Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee.

7But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.

8Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

9As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

10Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears.

11And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them,

 Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.

12Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place.

13I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing.

14So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me.

15Then I came to them of the captivity at Telabib, that dwelt by the river of Chebar, and I sat where they sat, and remained there astonished among them seven days.

16And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

22And the hand of the LORD was there upon me; and he said unto me, Arise, go forth into the plain, and I will there talk with thee.

23Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the LORD stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face.

24Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house.

25But thou, O son of man, behold, they shall put bands upon thee, and shall bind thee with them, and thou shalt not go out among them:

26And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth, that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house.

27But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house.

 

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

2.) 1 Corinthians Chapter 15, verses 23-26 clearly shows Jesus returns, the resurrection takes place, "Then Cometh The End", verse 26 states the last enemy destroyed is death 

Verses 51-54 clearly teaches that at the resurrection mortal turns into immortal, the last enemy is defeated as "death is swallowed up in victory" (The End)

The COMES the end. 

NOT THEN IS THE END.  

AGAIN, MAKING A DOCTRINE never taught in the words of GOD from how you define a word
 

Each however in the own order: firstfruit Christ, then those of Christ at the coming of Him

then the end WHEN He shall hand over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He shall have annulled all dominion and all authority and power.

It behooves for Him to reign until that He shall have put all the enemies under the feet of Him

last enemy to be abolished death

DEATH doesn't go into the LOF until AFTER GOG and MAGOG which DOESN'T take place for 1000 years AFTER the battle He comes to fight at the 2nd ADVENT.  

Since they are different places and different times and their ends are different and what happens after each one is different then there is no way for them to be the same.  UNTIL you can SHOW it written where EITHER has previously taken place that ALSO makes null and void all that, well
 

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Conclusion: You deny the presented truth of scripture, in exchange for a pre-determined bias in a Millennial Kingdom on this earth that will never take place, it's that simple

Yes, you deny the presented truth of scripture in exchange for TAKING AWAY from what is written without any basis but A SINGLE WORD which you have made into a doctrine and are now trying to sell.  So far I have seen no buyers.  THANK GOD.

Seems all doctrines of man only serve to TAKE FROM the POWER and plan of GOD, this one no different.   I read WRITTEN in the words of GOD 1000 years and then 1000 years and then 1000 years and I don't deny them.  IF that is called 'an exchange for a pre determined bias' then so be it.  I am ready to answer GOD with yes I read it and I believed it.   I have one more really long post I will post in the next few days God knows.

I was hoping to bow out gracefully without having to make any adjustments but seems I may have no choice.  Because I am weak, I have to use the help given me or I will just keep replying, and I suddenly feel a conviction.   I am going to heed that right now...

All I can say is,  stay in the word

 

 

[truth7t7]

21 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." 1 Corinthians 15:24 KJV

THE END IS OF 'THE LAST DAYS'  how do we KNOW THIS FOR SURE?


"Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, HIS REWARD IS WITH HIM AND HIS WORK BEFORE HIM." Isaiah 62:11 KJV



 

NO, DANIELS PEOPLE ARE DELIVERED. 


 

BUT those who AWAKE don't stand in judgment 
BECAUSE THE GWTH COMES 

after
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


after
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 

after
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

after
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

after
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

after
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

after
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

after
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

after
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

after
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

AND THEN
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

WE SEE THE GWTJ of both the just and the unjust (hence the books and book)
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

AND THEN WE SEE THIS
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


NOTHING you have ever put forth has shown THIS TAKING PLACE IN ANY OTHER ORDER AND THE VERSES YOU PUT FORTH don't say it either.  

THE END OF THE END OF TIMES.  YOU CAN'T GET RID OF THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN AND UNTIL YOU CAN SHOW IT IN GODS WORDS

YOUR 'BECAUSE I SAID SO' ISN'T DOING ANYTHING but showing

you have NO OTHER KNOWLEDGE to put forth. 

IF what you SAY is GODS TRUTH then THERE IS A WITNESS FOR IT IN HIS WORDS.  

You ARE MAKING UP YOUR OWN DOCTRINE out of ONE WORD without any regard to what it does to what is taught.  


 

16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


You have BEEN SHOWN the err of THE INTERPRETATION of the use of 'the end'.  You have been given GODS WORDS time and again from many different people in many different ways and you CHOSE to reject them.  You give nothing showing any other time for the events rejected to occur.  

 

4And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.

5For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;

6Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee.

7But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.

8Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

9As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

10Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears.

11And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them,

 Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.

12Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place.

13I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing.

14So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me.

15Then I came to them of the captivity at Telabib, that dwelt by the river of Chebar, and I sat where they sat, and remained there astonished among them seven days.

16And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

22And the hand of the LORD was there upon me; and he said unto me, Arise, go forth into the plain, and I will there talk with thee.

23Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the LORD stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face.

24Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house.

25But thou, O son of man, behold, they shall put bands upon thee, and shall bind thee with them, and thou shalt not go out among them:

26And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth, that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house.

27But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house.

 

The COMES the end. 

NOT THEN IS THE END.  

AGAIN, MAKING A DOCTRINE never taught in the words of GOD from how you define a word
 

Each however in the own order: firstfruit Christ, then those of Christ at the coming of Him

then the end WHEN He shall hand over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He shall have annulled all dominion and all authority and power.

It behooves for Him to reign until that He shall have put all the enemies under the feet of Him

last enemy to be abolished death

DEATH doesn't go into the LOF until AFTER GOG and MAGOG which DOESN'T take place for 1000 years AFTER the battle He comes to fight at the 2nd ADVENT.  

Since they are different places and different times and their ends are different and what happens after each one is different then there is no way for them to be the same.  UNTIL you can SHOW it written where EITHER has previously taken place that ALSO makes null and void all that, well
 

Yes, you deny the presented truth of scripture in exchange for TAKING AWAY from what is written without any basis but A SINGLE WORD which you have made into a doctrine and are now trying to sell.  So far I have seen no buyers.  THANK GOD.

Seems all doctrines of man only serve to TAKE FROM the POWER and plan of GOD, this one no different.   I read WRITTEN in the words of GOD 1000 years and then 1000 years and then 1000 years and I don't deny them.  IF that is called 'an exchange for a pre determined bias' then so be it.  I am ready to answer GOD with yes I read it and I believed it.   I have one more really long post I will post in the next few days God knows.

I was hoping to bow out gracefully without having to make any adjustments but seems I may have no choice.  Because I am weak, I have to use the help given me or I will just keep replying, and I suddenly feel a conviction.   I am going to heed that right now...

All I can say is,  stay in the word

 

 

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV

6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV

5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV

15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." 1 Corinthians 15:24 KJV

"When He Shall Have" Is Fulfilled At The Second Coming, When The Last Enemy Death Is "Destroyed"

When Jesus Christ Returns The Resurrection Takes Place, At This Time "Mortal" Becomes "Immortal", At This Time "The Last Enemy Death" In Verse 26 Is Destroyed, The Kingdom Is Delivered Up At This Time

You Don't Want To See The Last Enemy Death Destroyed Below, Because Your Pre-Determined Millennial Kingdom On Earth "Disappears" Before Your Eyes

You Act As If The Last Enemy Death Isn't Destroyed Below "Why"?

The Scripture Is Clear, Simple, Easy To Understand, And Before Your Eyes

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 & 51-54KJV

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(Verses 52-54 Below Explains How The Last Enemy Death Is Destroyed, At The Second Coming And Resurrection)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Edited March 7, 2023 by truth7t7

[Sister]

On 6/25/2022 at 11:41 AM, Retrobyter said:

Sorry to ramble on, but these are just a few thoughts I've had since the funeral.

Hello Retrobyter

Beautiful post. 

May God comfort you on the loss of your physical father.

[truth7t7]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:41 PM, Retrobyter said:

 

Sorry to ramble on, but these are just a few thoughts I've had since the funeral.

Sorry to hear about your loss Retro, hope things are looking better

Jesus Is The Lord

[not an echo]

On 5/29/2022 at 5:28 AM, Diaste said:

Sobering thoughts.

Hello Diaste,

As I indicated at the end of my previous post (page 173, post 5), this post will wrap up my contribution to your thread.  I have remained pure in heart and prayerful in the course of my every reply, and I hope that when I am finished here, you will be able to perceive this, whatever your perception has been along the way.  Whatever may be your reply to this post, you can now consider the sum of what I have put forth in the course of my 10 posts to be representative of what my answer would be.  If I have misrepresented anything that you have put forth, this has not been my intention, and I humbly apologize in advance.  I have perfect peace before Almighty God.

I have been somewhat bewildered by my understanding of some things you have said in the course of your thread.  I think this is mostly because I took something for granted concerning your beliefs, something that is evidently not so.  When I tell you what I'm speaking about, your first thought may be that this is off topic, and thinking this may cause you a measure of aggravation with me.  But, I hope you will hear me out, as I submit that understanding the truth of what I am going to try to show you will be a major factor in your coming to the conclusion your are seeking concerning the question of your thread topic.

Whereas I have long understood that we believe very differently concerning the timing of the rapture (or gathering) of the Church, I had no idea that we would differ so on our understanding of what it means to "sleep in Jesus" (I Thess. 4:14).  This is the "something" that I was alluding to above.  For me, my understanding of this is so basic and unwavering that I have felt that I must be misunderstanding you.  Following are some things you've said that have made me wonder (all emphasis mine)...

On 11/10/2022 at 4:22 AM, Diaste said:

The resurrected dead in Christ and the living who remain at His coming are those who faced the beast and came out from within GT.

The rest of the dead wait till the 1000 years are finished and pass before the GWT where most are found written in the Book of Life. 

That means if I die today I am not resurrected at His coming as I did not face the beast, nor the image, but must wait till the GWT and my works will be judged.

And...

On 11/18/2022 at 3:51 AM, Diaste said:

As far as who is in heaven or alive right now I can't speak to that. If we are in heaven I don't think they are in bodies as we all await the resurrection of the dead. I don't know how this works but that' not the discussion at this time.

And...

On 2/9/2023 at 3:41 AM, Diaste said:

Also, why would there be any trepidation about the dead and their destiny at the 'last day' if every believer was with the Lord already? 

I haven't studied this out but I do have a message in to a friend so I can discuss it with him. 

For now, I would say the 1st resurrection at the 2nd advent is of those so described in Rev 7:9-14 and Rev 20:4. If their spirits are with Jesus and only the bodies resurrected, and the spirit and body reunited at that time, I can't say for sure. Were their spirits asleep as Paul seems to suggest in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15?

And why would Paul say they sleep? Do spirits and souls sleep? How would this be if the spirit was already with Jesus in heaven?

This isn't the topic here but it is very interesting to me.

And finally, this that you said concerning Paul's words in I Thessalonians 4:14, which evidently stems from your question marks concerning those "which sleep in Jesus"...

On 12/24/2022 at 4:23 AM, Diaste said:

The phrasing is a bit awkward in verse 14. Paul must have been tired or in a hurry because he doesn't normally write like that. 

As I look back on my life, it seems that from the time I first ever heard anything said about a dead person being asleep, I would think only in terms of the person's body.  Moreover, in the course of some 40 years of Bible reading and study, my attention has never been drawn to a Scripture that gave me pause to think otherwise.  For me, that the soul of a saved person goes to Heaven to be with God and all those who have gone on before is so basic a Bible truth that I am not even in the remote proximity of thinking otherwise.  The account of Stephen when he was stoned is a case example of my position.  Consider from Acts 7...

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep (i.e., his body succumbed).

Jesus, when He was talking about the physical death of Lazarus, used terms indicating his state as "sleep" and "death" interchangeably (Jn. 11:11-14).  And, such is not just the case with the saved, as we see in Daniel 12...

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Scripture consistently supports that it is the body alone that will "sleep in the dust of the earth".  Much of what I show in my seventh post (page 159, post 2) reinforces this and from various angles.  Of that post, you were quite negative and didn't see how what I was showing related to your thread.  Your thread title is Who is Resurrected and When?  How did what I show relate to this?  Consider:  If the souls of all who are saved are taken to Heaven when their body succumbs, dies, or goes to sleep, what would be the purpose of the GWTJ for them, unless their eternity is not actually determined until it is seen how their deeds measure up at the GWTJ?  See the problem?  When I try to apply my logic to what I hear you saying---or wrestling with---this would mean that someone whose soul has actually been in Heaven could possibly end up in Hell.  I'm thinking that you are surely not thinking this, but it seems to me this is an implication of your thinking.  On my part, what I'm speaking about here at least eliminates one possibility, helping to narrow down to one what option you have as an answer to your question.

I have also gotten the impression that you may believe the souls of some who have been saved go to Heaven when their body dies, but that this doesn't mean the souls of all who have been saved go to Heaven when their body dies.  Like you, for example, Diaste.  If the soul of anyone who has been saved goes to Heaven when their body dies, why would you question whether your soul will go to Heaven when your body dies?

Going in another direction, Paul said the following in I Thessalonians 4 (and carefully note my takes)...

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (those whose bodies had died), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them (the souls of them) also which sleep in Jesus (the saved whose bodies had died) will God bring with Him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (for the gathering) shall not prevent them which are asleep (those whose bodies have already died).

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (the bodies of those who had been saved) shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together (raptured/gathered by the angels) with them (those whose bodies had just been reunited with their souls) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever (both those reunited with their bodies and those raptured/gathered) be with the Lord.

As can be seen, when "asleep" and "sleep" are understood to only be in reference to the body, the understanding is simple.  I don't see anything that may be construed to be "soul sleep" consistently supported by Scripture.

I almost forgot.  Concerning the "phrasing" of verse 14 being to you "a bit awkward",  you need to do something with this rather than to suggest that "Paul must have been tired or in a hurry because he doesn't normally write like that."  If that is your recourse on something that you struggle to understand, where does it stop?  I mean, allowing for such a possibly, can we really count on anything that Paul said?  I cannot help but to think of what Peter said in II Peter 3...

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

On 2/22/2023 at 4:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/20/2023 at 10:44 PM, not an echo said:

Continuing from my preceding post (page 140, post 2) and remaining mindful of what I showed in the last half of it, how are we to understand what Jesus meant by the "last day" and Martha's concept of this?  It is a help to remember that Jesus also spoke of a resurrection to "life" and a resurrection to "damnation" (Jn. 5:29).  It is certainly easy to suppose that the "last day" resurrection Jesus was speaking of in John 6:39-40, 44, and 54 would have been the resurrection to "life" and the one that Martha had on her mind when thinking of Lazarus.

One can suppose a lot of things. The imagination of mankind is boundless and vain.

Just to clarify, my statement was just a nice way of saying that this is such a self-evident truth that it is not reasonable "to suppose" otherwise.  Like Paul when he said, "For I reckon (Gk. logizomai / also translated suppose) that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Rom. 8:18).

On 2/28/2023 at 4:07 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/27/2023 at 11:18 PM, not an echo said:

Your reply here was in response to the second part of my study (page 124, post 4).  Just before what you show that John writes of in Revelation 5:11, he writes this...

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So, John writes of his invite to take part in this ceremony, which was for the evident purpose of conferring to the Lamb the charge of the Seven Sealed Book.  If all of God's children go to Heaven when their body dies (or goes to sleep), they would have all been in Heaven when John got his invite---whether he would have been allowed to see them or not.  Consider my seventh study again (page 159, post 5), where I do a walk through of God's children and where they went when their time in this life was done---both in the O.T. days and into the N.T. days.  Not only this, but I gave other supporting Scripture.  In partial reply to that study, you make the statement, "So?  People are in heaven. A bunch of people have lived and died and gone to heaven.  I don't dispute that."  If you don't dispute that, you have to concede that they would have been in Heaven when John got his invite.  And, if you are not against using logic, you could rightly conclude that he saw them there, as evidenced by what he says in verses 9-10 above.

If you do not believe that everyone who had died from Adam to the time that John got his invite was there, how would you arrive at such a conclusion---based on Scripture?  Something for another thread?  Perhaps.  But something also related to this one.

Mainly because of who is specifically identified at that time in the scripture. If I say we are seeing a group of resurrected believers in the passage in question I'm adding to the description of the group. 

"Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands."

The myriads are angels, living creatures and elders. There no language here to even imply there are believers redeemed in Christ from Adam to the 2nd advent in this scene.  If that language exists, please post it.

Rev 5:1-10 describes who is in the scene. While elders and angels and living creatures are described, no vast group redeemed from Adam to 2nd advent is. The closest we see the saints in heaven at this point is the prayer of the saints. No saints bodily. No souls of saints, just the prayers of the saints; which are held in bowls by the elders.

This is the song:

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,

because You were slain,

and by Your blood You purchased for God

those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10You have made THEM to be a kingdom

and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign uponb the earth.”

So the idea this is the saints singing this song is not supported by the text in v 9-10. Even if I agree 'them' is 'us', there is still no written evidence here, among all the specific and stunning detail in this scene, of a vast group of saints from all time. 

Again, it's a bold assumption. Many make the same error. They shouldn't. It's a terrifying thing. 

Concerning your last few sentences, those whom John is referring to in Revelation 5:9 are saying this to the Lamb in their song, "for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation..."  This does not ring of just a handful of people.  But, whether a few, a few hundred, or a few hundred million, on the basis of what Scripture would we conclude that only some of the saved and not all of the saved (who had died up until the time of John's invite) would be present in Heaven?  Whether John actually saw all of them, all of them would have been there.  Personally, I would submit that if John saw any of them, he saw all of them.  I can't see any of 'em missing this ceremony! 

On 2/28/2023 at 4:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/27/2023 at 11:18 PM, not an echo said:

On 2/12/2023 at 6:19 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/11/2023 at 2:15 PM, not an echo said:

Making the tie in with what I have already shown, it is during the 7th Trumpet period that the event of Christ's Second Advent will take place, of which John wrote these words from chapter 17 (which I previously pointed out)...

14 These (speaking of the beast and those in league with him) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Yes. But just who is that? It's not defined. You assume and gap fill. Where does this say it's 'all believers from all time'? In fact the idea it's all believers from all time is an assumption based on the fallacy of gap filling.

If it's an assumption, it's based upon what is consistently revealed to us throughout Scripture and the logical answer to this question:  All Scripture considered, who else would these have been?

...

It's possible this group is redeemed believers from all time, but that isn't established here. 

So, where is it explicitly stated this group is every believer from Adam to 2nd advent? I'll even accept indirect evidence. 

I don't see the idea in scripture anywhere. 

Are you not by such thinking essentially calling into question the very concept you have heretofore been a stringent stickler to---that being your position on Israel and the Church?  I think of this portion of Jesus' intercessory prayer, recorded in John 17...   

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me.

22 And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one:

23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.

When you say "that isn't established here",  my first thought is that "here" it may not be established to your satisfaction, but we are not talking only about here.  This is like a single exhibit in a court case.  Please don't dismiss all the other evidences I have shown when I'm showing you another exhibit.  With all the other evidences I have shown, consider for example the inclusiveness of Paul's words in the following passages:  Romans 12:5, I Corinthians 12:12-27, Galatians 3:26-29, and Ephesians 4:11-16.  

On 3/3/2023 at 8:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/2/2023 at 9:49 PM, not an echo said:

 Concerning your first paragraph, I'm not really sure just what you are getting at here.  But, "the exact identity of the saints, the meek" and "the priests and kings of God" is most assuredly known by God. 

You are quite sure. This is why you throw up the above straw man. What I said is:

On 3/2/2023 at 9:49 PM, not an echo said:

  On 2/13/2023 at 4:01 AM, Diaste said:

 What is the exact identity of the saints, the meek, the priests and kings of God? What did they do? How does God view His saints? 

The 'saints' of the Most High...who are they? What did they do? What attributes do they possess? Does God say here? 

Can you answer any of this? I never even implied God doesn't know. I asked if you knew how God viewed the group. I asked if you know, and from scripture can you identify, the group by attributes. 

My impression was that you were asking what makes "the saints, the meek, the priests and kings of God" what they are, as if this would not be known until the GWTJ---except possibly in the case of some.  I understand now (I believe ) that you were asking about their "exact identity" meaning like, coming out of Daniel's 70th Week.  My statements have been from the perspective that their "exact identity" is known by the Father as being children of His, whatever they might have been through.

On 3/3/2023 at 8:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/2/2023 at 9:49 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph and your question about who the 'saints' of the Most High are who are spoken of in Daniel 7:18, we both know that it is not "whomever strides through the door of the building on Sunday."  It would be those who are 'saints' indeed.  Who then are they?  Four verses further in Daniel 7 we read...

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

This is one of those prophetic puzzle pieces that interlocks with those we find in Revelation 20:4-6, even this piece: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" (vs. 4).

These pieces also interlock with what we find five verses further in Daniel 7...

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.

The 'saints' being spoken of here are the same as all who are spoken of as saints throughout the New Testament (over 50 references)---none excluded.  Does this mean that all are what they should be?  By no means.  Even Paul would have pulled up short of saying this (Rom. 7:18-25).  Not even one of God's saints will be what he or she should be until God finishes the conforming of His children "to the image His Son" (Rom. 8:29).

As  an example from scripture for concise identification we see this:

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Immediately we see John doesn't answer. Why? Simply, he doesn't know. The elder asks,

 “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

Why would the elder ask this if the identity of this group was already known? You seem to know. A lot of people claim to know. John, who walked with Jesus, didn't even know. 

For clarification, the question of your last paragraph stems from what John writes concerning the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17 and of his indication that he did not know who they were (vss. 13-14).  My position is that this great multitude is all of God's children who were a part of the New Testament Christian era up until the time of the gathering (e.g., Matt. 24:31; I Thess. 4:17) and those who had gone on before them, now in their resurrection bodies.  Trying to envision the great multitude John was here seeing, I can understand him experiencing some bewilderment.  Try to imagine the difference between a multitude made up of one century of Christians versus a multitude made up of 20 centuries of Christians---each century compounding the number.  Easily millions and millions, or even billions.  It's easy to imagine John wondering, "Where in the world did all these come from?  Whoa!"

Considering the great tribulation Christians as a whole have experienced since the time of Christ, I continue to marvel that so many opt to believe the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-17 to be Daniel's 70th Week martyrs---based only upon the words "great tribulation" (vs. 14).  According to the evidence of Scripture, what evidence is there that such a multitude will be willing to be martyred during that time?  As I've said before, if there is a great multitude doing anything during that time, it will be worshiping the beast.  A stark unwillingness to repent and believe will characterize that time.  We know that some will, but evidences indicate that the number will be relatively few (e.g., II Thess. 2:8-12; Rev. 9:20-21; Rev. 13:3-4).  Also, we see their souls in Heaven, in Revelation 15:1-4.  In other words, it is here that we see the 70th Week martyrs, not in Revelation 7:9-17.

On 3/3/2023 at 8:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/2/2023 at 9:49 PM, not an echo said:

The judgment of the sheep and goats concerns the survivors of Daniel's 70th Week and happens near the beginning of Christ's reign (Matt. 25:31-32). 

...

If this were the case then you have two times when people are sent to the lake of fire, once when He arrives, and once at the GWT.

All who are damned to Hell will ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire.  In the context of everything that has been revealed to us, my position would be that the "goats" of this judgment will be cast into the Hell of now (Gk. háidēs), as all the unsaved now are---like the rich man (Lk. 16:19-24ff), to ultimately be cast into the Hell of eternity (Gk. géenna/the Lake of Fire/Matt. 10:28; Mk. 9:43-48) as all the unsaved will be---again, like the rich man.

On 3/3/2023 at 8:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/2/2023 at 9:49 PM, not an echo said:

The GWTJ happens after the end of Christ's reign (Rev. 20:11-15).  Based upon everything the Bible teaches us concerning this judgment and grace and works, we can understand that the "deeds" spoken of during the GWTJ will be deeds that will incriminate, not justify, deeds that will expose, not cover.

Absolutely not. Do you not read? 

"And IF anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15

IF, IF, IF....

And, if your above quote is true, then the sheep and goats judgement is either false or wrong or an immense contradiction. The sheep and goats judgement is a deeds based judgement, deeds which were done and deeds which were not done but should have been.

There is not one mention of faith or belief in that section of Matt 25. In that section of Matt 25 it was the lack of deeds that incriminated and the presence of deeds that justified. 

Concerning your opening line, that's not a very nice thing to ask me.   Yes, I read and study and pray and seek the truth about most everything I find in God's Word, especially when there are evidences that things may not be what they look like on the surface.  What I read in Revelation 20:15 is this:  "And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15).  Whosoever as in none exempted.  It won't matter if it's a king or a pauper, a mass murderer or an unsaved school teacher, an unsaved pew polisher or the Pope.  It won't matter.  Whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire.  Nothing is said of those whose names are written there.  Why?  Because they are a part of "the first resurrection" (Rev. 20:5-6).  In the context of what we find concerning the GWTJ, I don't see the "IF THEN Boolean operator" you have wanted to apply to verse 15 carrying the weight that you have put on it.

Concerning your next to last paragraph, you keep seeing the "deeds" that were done as being the determining factor.  But, it is the tree that produces the fruit (or deeds), not the fruit that produces the tree.  Consider afresh what Jesus said in Matthew 7...

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

At the GWTJ, the deeds (or fruit) will be displayed, if you will, and what is displayed will be the incriminating evidence that those here judged (the trees) were corrupt.  Their being damned will be on account of their names not being written in the Book of Life---meaning they had not been saved or made new (e.g., II Cor. 5:17).  Meaning they were still "thorns" or "thistles" (Matt. 7:16).  As someone has rightly said, "Our problem goes deeper than the sins we commit."  We are sinners---corrupted fallen humanity---in dire need of God's saving grace and what He did for us through Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary.  His saving grace is our only hope of salvation.  And this is not imparted to us because of our works or deeds (Rom. 4:3-5, 16).  I know, I know.  Just saying.  I feel compelled, even if off topic.  But I'm almost through.

On 3/3/2023 at 8:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/2/2023 at 9:49 PM, not an echo said:

 

  At this judgment, the deeds of those being judged will irrefutably manifest that these people were corrupted fallen human beings in dire need of salvation---but not saved.  What is found "written in the books" (vs. 12) will reveal what these people are.  What is "not found written in the Book of Life" (vs. 15)---their name---will seal their ultimate doom.

Again, IF, IF, IF....

"And IF anyone was found whose name was NOT written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

But only those not found. That means some are found written therein. Many. Most, I hope.

Concerning your last line, if some at the GWTJ "are found written therein",  why would they be at this judgment?  It is because of our truly receiving Jesus Christ as our Savior and being born-again that we go to Heaven when our body succumbs.  If this is the case with one of God's children, this is the case with all of His children.  As I said earlier, haven't you heretofore been a stickler to this very detail in your position and concept concerning the Church and Israel?  I agree wholeheartedly with you concerning Abraham's seed.  But, I get the impression that your concept of the GWTJ is that some who were Abraham's seed for a while may not end up being his seed.  By all that you've said, it's easy to get the impression that you may wonder this same thing concerning yourself.  I'm burdened to ask you this:  Do you feel that your eternal destiny will not be made sure until your own deeds are judged at the GWTJ?

Finally, I hope you will go back and look at my other posts in light of what I have shown in the course of them.  Also, what I have discussed in this thread I regard as representing just a small grouping of prophetic puzzle pieces that must fit the complete picture that will one day be revealed.  While what I have shown helps to establish the truth of my position(s) to my satisfaction, I understand that everyone must be persuaded in their own mind.  I hope that what I have put forth helps you (and all) to that end.

 Here's a list of my previous posts: (page 122, post 8), (page 124, post 3), (page 128, post 2), (page 131, post 7), (page 139, post 9), (page 141, post 7), (page 159, post 2), (page 170, post 7), and (page 173, post 5).

NOTE:  Before submitting my reply, I did some double checking on my post info and noticed that there had been a shift.  I don't know how often this may happen.  I can only guess that someone has deleted some of their posts.  For now, I'm going to go back and correct the post info in my other posts.  In the future, these may end up only approximate.  The reason I gave this info was that I had thoughts of giving links to these in the future if this subject comes up in one of my own threads.

[Diaste]

 

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

Of that post, you were quite negative and didn't see how what I was showing related to your thread. 

As fascinating as it is, it doesn't relate. The OP asks who is resurrected and when in the context of Rev 7 and Rev 20. 

The point of the query is, "Are the resurrected in Rev 20, who come to life and reign with Christ for 1000 years, only those who faced the beast and were beheaded for the word of God and their testimony of Jesus Christ; as the scripture says? Or is it all from all time resurrected to live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years as it's been taught in the dispensational, pretribulation believing, western church?

The question was never about "Where do we go when we die?"

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

 

Your thread title is Who is Resurrected and When?  How did what I show relate to this?  Consider:  If the souls of all who are saved are taken to Heaven when their body succumbs, dies, or goes to sleep, what would be the purpose of the GWTJ for them, unless their eternity is not actually determined until it is seen how their deeds measure up at the GWTJ? 

It may be that some are taken up immediately and some are not. IDK. It seemeth strange there is a deeds based judgement where the sheep had no idea what they did to get in and in fact, until they were separated and invited in, they were not in. Paul does say, ". 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad."

Right before that Paul says, "8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it."

Paul certainly seems to be saying there is a judgement for all whether we go to be with the Lord immediately upon death, or not.

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

See the problem?

Indeed I do. That's what I'm wondering about. It's not clear for me at this point as I can't yet reconcile all the info. I haven't studied it out in depth yet and I may or may not. In any case it's not germane to the OP.

 

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

  When I try to apply my logic to what I hear you saying---or wrestling with---this would mean that someone whose soul has actually been in Heaven could possibly end up in Hell.  I'm thinking that you are surely not thinking this, but it seems to me this is an implication of your thinking.  On my part, what I'm speaking about here at least eliminates one possibility, helping to narrow down to one what option you have as an answer to your question.

That's the conundrum. Both the sheep and goats and the GWT are deeds based judgements. How does that work with what is said by Paul, "8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. 10For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad."

So we go to be with Jesus immediately, but still must appear before the judgement seat, per Paul.

 

 

[Diaste]

 

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your last few sentences, those whom John is referring to in Revelation 5:9 are saying this to the Lamb in their song, "for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation..." 

Below is a better rendering. The word 'us' or 'hemas', does not appear in Rev 5:9 in the lexicon nor the interlinear. 

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,

because You were slain,

and by Your blood You purchased for God

those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10You have made them to be a kingdom

and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign uponb the earth.”

If it was 'us' then the elders and the 4 living creatures would be grouping themselves into this profound redemption. I have heard it argued the elders not only represent the dispensational church, but literally are the dispensational pretrib church. There is no evidence for that so I ignore it. 

In any case 'hemas' does not appear in Rev 5:9 and it's not logical to think the 4 living creatures needed to be redeemed from the earth by the blood of Jesus. It cannot be 'us' here. 

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

This does not ring of just a handful of people.  But, whether a few, a few hundred, or a few hundred million, on the basis of what Scripture would we conclude that only some of the saved and not all of the saved (who had died up until the time of John's invite) would be present in Heaven?  Whether John actually saw all of them, all of them would have been there.  Personally, I would submit that if John saw any of them, he saw all of them.  I can't see any of 'em missing this ceremony! 

The above cancels this argument. This isn't an appearance in heaven by a large group, this is a laudatory song of the worth and majesty of the King of Kings. There is no vast group in heaven here. All we see is:

"Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the seven Spiritsa of God sent out into all the earth. 7And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne."

Here we see a vast group of angels, elders and living creatures, but no resurrected believers.

"Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands."

Where is this vast group of resurrected believers you claim is here, so described in Rev 5? I don't see it.