The "Great Multitude" and "Great Tribulation" of Revelation 7:9-17

[iamlamad]

On 6/6/2022 at 5:28 PM, Revelation Man said:

Just the opposite, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can ONLY BE the Pre Trib Raptured Church. You guys just do not comprehend things in full. 

For instance, in Rev. 6, in the 5th Seal Jesus tells those under the Altar (who get killed during the 70th week)

You were doing SO WELL in your first sentence above. The rapture will come just before the 6th seal start of God's wrath, while "the trib" or 70th week will begin at the 6th seal.

"6" always comes before "7" in counting, so the rapture will always be pre-trib.

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in the 5th Seal Jesus tells those under the Altar (who get killed during the 70th week)

No, sorry, but this is not the intent of the passage. These under the altar are church age martyrs. This seal was opened in time for Stephen, the first church age martyr, to be murdered.

If they were 70th week martyrs, they would KNOW they had only to wait out the rest of the Week, or perhaps the last 42 months. Take Stephen for instance: he would have had no idea that it would be 2000 years into the future before God chose to rapture the church, end the church age, and begin the time of Judgment.

Why are there church age martyrs? Simply because Satan hated Jesus so He hates Christians that are Jesus' body on the earth. God has allowed Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts to try and stop the church taking the gospel to the world. 

Seal 1 is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. Jesus opened this seal as soon as He got the book into His hands, which was as soon as He ascended back into the throne room. I believe Jesus opened the first five seals one after the other as soon as He got the book from the father. The 5th seal is the first hint of a long period of waiting. God is waiting for that final church age martyr to end the church age. It seems God knows the total number.

[iamlamad]

On 6/6/2022 at 5:28 PM, Revelation Man said:

...

For instance, in Rev. 6, in the 5th Seal Jesus tells those under the Altar (who get killed during the 70th week) that they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have, which means they must hold off for their vengeance until the Anti-Christ 42 month reign is over, only then will they get their vengeance, and thus those under the altar do not make Heaven until ALL of the Martyrs who the Beast kills die over his 42 month reign of terror. Then, in Rev. 20:4 we can actually SEE when those who die during the 70th week get raised and Judged. And that is only AFTER Jesus' second coming.

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those under the altar do not make Heaven

Wrong. They are under the altar IN HEAVEN. Paul is clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. These are CHURCH AGE martyrs. God and John do not begin the final Week until LATER in the book. John is still in the church UNTIL Jesus opens the 6th seal.

The church age will END at the pre-trib rapture, just before the 6th seal is opened that will begin God's wrath.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Stephen had no idea how long it would be when the age of grace would end and God would begin judgment. In fact, it is still in OUR future. He as the first of this group.

What did John mean, "killed as they were..." I believe it means, Killed as they all were, as church age martyrs." The manner of death was different: some were fed to lions, others were crucified, others were beheaded. How each was killed is not what John was saying.  The church age martyrs is one category of martyrs. Seventieth Week martyrs will be in a different category.

 

[iamlamad]

On 6/6/2022 at 5:28 PM, Revelation Man said:

... thus those under the altar do not make Heaven until ALL of the Martyrs who the Beast kills die over his 42 month reign of terror. Then, in Rev. 20:4 we can actually SEE when those who die during the 70th week get raised and Judged. And that is only AFTER Jesus' second coming.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, how are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 not seen as the Pre Trib Raptured Church? You and others conflate things which should be easily discerned my brother. 

 

When Jesus comes to raise the Dead in Christ, OF COURSE the martys will be "dead in Christ." So of course they will rise and get resurrection bodies with all the rest of the dead in Christ. 

Those under the altar are CHURCH AGE martyrs, not 70-week martyrs. Miss-classifying them has caused more errors.

Where are they in Revelation 20:4? Right here: " I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them...." This is the first group John mentions. He says no more about them except they are a part of the first or chief resurrection. Who are they? They are the NT saints with resurrection bodies, plus the OT saints with resurrection bodies. Here they are judges.

Those beheaded in verse 4 are a DIFFERENT group, martyrs from the 70th week.

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how are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 not seen as the Pre Trib Raptured Church?

The truth is, they will be caught up with all the rest of the dead in Christ.

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You were doing SO WELL in your first sentence above. The rapture will come just before the 6th seal start of God's wrath, while "the trib" or 70th week will begin at the 6th seal.

"6" always comes before "7" in counting, so the rapture will always be pre-trib.

No, I was doing well because I understand the bible, and I now NO SEALS have been opened, that is nonsensical freindo. The Rapture is seem in Rev. 4:1 BEFORE any seals have been broken. Lets not even go own the "Nowhere Man" road again. Yiu are going to be so embarrassed you fell for that once you leave your body in spirit to go be with the Lord soon, all things will be understood in an instant, then you will understand you were hoodwinked brother on the Seal stuff and it warped all other Eschatological roads for your journey. 

 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, sorry, but this is not the intent of the passage. These under the altar are church age martyrs. This seal was opened in time for Stephen, the first church age martyr, to be murdered.

No, only you and .oo2 percent of Christendom buy into this. Why do you even bring this up yo me? Its not like this hasn't been discussed,  and once I see someone can't be swayed, I give up trying to sway them with common sense and let them travel d9wn their own crooked road. TBH, its not worthy of discussion, its like the flat earth people to me as per those who say the Seals were opened 2000 years ago etc. Sorry, its just deep end stuff to me. Would you debate a flat earther? No, of course not, maybe once, but then, I laugh at them, my brother got mad, he's actually fallen fir the flat earth stuff, I told him the Prof. on YOUTUBE teaching him that is probably a liberal troll. Since you know hw serious I take the end times, it ought to give you pause when I say the Seals being opened long ago (not all you say, I remember everything, I forget nothing people put forth about Eschatology, I may mix up posters at times) is not even a remote possibility nor worth discussing. I do not say things like that without an utter disdain for an understanding being put forth. 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If they were 70th week martyrs, they would KNOW they had only to wait out the rest of the Week, or perhaps the last 42 months. Take Stephen for instance: he would have had no idea that it would be 2000 years into the future before God chose to rapture the church, end the church age, and begin the time of Judgment.

Jesus never speaks to them physically, REMEMBER, God knows our every thought. As a matter of fact, at the time Jesus opens the Seals none of the events have even happened yet, he is Prophesying what will happen when the 7th Seal is opened and God's Wrath falls via the 7 Trumps. The first four trumps are ONE ASTEROID IMPACT. 

People just do not get God Speak. Fir instance, the "144,000" in Rev. 14 are not really standing on the Mount when Jesus arrives, that is a metaphor for Jesus Harvesting the Jews (3.5-5 million who repent) in his Fathers barn. Likewise in verses 17-20 the Wicked Grapes are placed into the Wine-press of God's Wrath or Harvested, Revelation 14 is "The Harvest Chapter". That is why the Jews are shown standing on the Mount with Jesus, he will reign in Jerusalem with the Jews in a Kingdom Age. So, since this is The Harvest Chapter and the Rapture of the Church happens 7 years before, how do you get all three Harvests in Rev. 14 ? You use a FLASHBACK like in the Movies. So, modern day Movie Directors can give us flashbacks but God couldn't show John a flashback via a vision? Of course He can and did in verse 14, we see Jesus rapturing the Church from upon a cloud, we meet him in the air, Amen. Thus we get ALL THREE Harvests in Rev. 14. 

Thus, they are indeed 70th week Martyrs. But whilst Jesus is opening the Seals in Heaven, amidst the Pre Trib Raptured Church, he is FORETELLING what their Hearts will say from the grave once they die. Cain slew Able and his blood cried out to God. So, why can't you see what Jesus is doing here? 

He takes the first 5 seals which are all about the Anti0Christs coming 42 month reign of terror and tells us what this rule will bring to pass. 1.) He goes forth Conquering for 42 months. 2.) He takes away peace or Brings war for 42 months. 3.) His wars bring 42 months of famine. 4.) His rule of tyranny brins Death/Sickness and the Grave for 42 months (THOSE Martyrs will be killed during Seals 1-4). Seal #5 tells us about those who will BECOME Martyrs during this Beasts 42 month reign for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast (Rev. 20:4 makes this very clear. And when are they raised and judged? AFTER the 2nd Coming.) They have nit even been killed yet. 

Seal #6 is what ALLOWS the Anti-Christ to go forth conquering, he can only do this once the Wrath of God falls, WHY? Because the children of Israel repents JUST BEFORE the DOTL falls. They are seen in Zech. 13:8-9 where 1/3 repent, and 2/3 will die, then in the very next verse (Zech. 14:1-3) we see why they die, the DOTL has arrived and Jerusalem gets conquered, by the Anti-Christ who becomes the Beast by conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. Not only do the 2/3 die who do not have the testimony of Jesus thus they can nit be the Remnant of Revelation 12:17, but so do the Martyrs (Gentiles who repent after the Rapture, also known as the Remnant [Church] of Rev. 12:17 who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ AND keep the Fathers Commandments. 

So, this will be God's Wrath/Lambs Wrath WHEN IT FALLS in Revelation chapter 8. But only after Israel (144,000) have been sealed in the head like us Christians and are in the SAFE ZONE of the Petra/Bozrah area. So, this under the Alter are not even dead yet when Jesus foretells what their hearts will be crying out unto about their vengeance.  

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why are there church age martyrs? Simply because Satan hated Jesus so He hates Christians that are Jesus' body on the earth. God has allowed Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts to try and stop the church taking the gospel to the world. 

Because Gentiles who missed the Rapture repent. 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Seal 1 is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. Jesus opened this seal as soon as He got the book into His hands, which was as soon as He ascended back into the throne room. I believe Jesus opened the first five seals one after the other as soon as He got the book from the father. The 5th seal is the first hint of a long period of waiting. God is waiting for that final church age martyr to end the church age. It seems God knows the total number.

The 1st Seal is not open. The 5th Seal is not opened yet either. You have managed to twist the Seals and not only miss that they are not judgements, BUT you also see them as opened nigh 2000 years ago, and I will not even give that any cred tbh. 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Wrong.

Finish my point out........... I SAID.................

AND thus those under the altar do not make Heaven until ALL of the Martyrs who the Beast kills die over his 42 month reign of terror. Then, in Rev. 20:4 we can actually SEE when those who die during the 70th week get raised and Judged. And that is only AFTER Jesus' second coming.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

They are under the altar IN HEAVEN. Paul is clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Another total misrepresentation, which is why Intake Paul's letters for what they are Letters to Church trying to pick them up, give them hope, raise their Faith and encourage them that their loved ones had not been forsaken just because they had already died. A "Thus saith the Lord" as written by a Prophet is not like a Pastor of a Churches job of encouraging his flock, so much so that Paul says he would be ALL THINGS to all people in order to win souls. 

So, Paul is telling the Thessalonians (I think) that their loved ones would not be forgotten, he also tells them, hey don't fear death because [us Christians] understand that if we leave this body we will [ONE DAY] be with the Lord. He's saying Hey guys!! DON'T BE AFRAID of dying !! Because in order to be with the Lord we are going to have to leave these bodies, that is in essence what Paul was telling then, not tat as soon as you die you go to be with the Lord. He trying to assuage their fears. The very same thing happens in  Thess. 4 where Paul tells the Churches HEY the Dead in Christ will rise FIRST or BEFORE the Church, but its just the Blink of an eye !!

So, in all reality, it happens at the exact same time, just like if In walk into a grocery store with my wife, if my foot enter first I proffer we both entered at the same time.  As per the Altar in Heaven, again Prayers are heard at the Altar,  these Dead Saints blood cries up to God. 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When Jesus comes to raise the Dead in Christ, OF COURSE the martys will be "dead in Christ." So of course they will rise and get resurrection bodies with all the rest of the dead in Christ. 

Those under the altar are CHURCH AGE martyrs, not 70-week martyrs. Miss-classifying them has caused more errors.

The Church is Raptured Pre-Trib. Those in Rev. 12 and 7 are Israel, the Church is only a small Remnant. 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Where are they in Revelation 20:4? Right here: " I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them...." This is the first group John mentions. He says no more about them except they are a part of the first or chief resurrection. Who are they? They are the NT saints with resurrection bodies, plus the OT saints with resurrection bodies. Here they are judges.

Those beheaded in verse 4 are a DIFFERENT group, martyrs from the 70th week.

No, the THRONES is what we the Church sits upon it is, the Church whom returns with Jesus, now we will judge the Martyrs AND Demons, but only in A 1000 years, 

 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, they will be caught up with all the rest of the dead in Christ.

 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

1 Yes.

2) The slain in Egypt included their gods; most notably Horus, the son of Pharaoh according to Egyptian belief, and the Apis bull-calf, which was a firstborn:

Ex. 12:12 ‘For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. ... 29 And it came to pass at midnight that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne ...and all the firstborn of livestock.

By these slayings, the Egyptian temples were defiled, which constituted the archetype of the Abomination of Desolation for that age. Remember, "these things [of the time of the Exodus] happened to them as an example/tupos/type, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." 1 Cor. 10:11

3) The Passover Abomination of Desolation of the Egyptian temples.

4) ...the time the Jews left Egypt till they reached Sinai, and the Lord descended in fire to call up his righteous ones into His presence on His holy mountain: Nisan 15 unto the Sivan 7 Pentecost blood covenant. A type of the period to come: from the Abomination of Desolation thru the Great Tribulation unto the descent of Christ to call up His  elect unto the heavenly Mount Zion.

5) Yes, it is the time of the AD of Daniel 12:11.

Thank you.