RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE ROUGHLY BETWEEN APRIL 2023 AND APRIL 2024?

[Retrobyter]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:11 PM, Spock said:

Greetings missmuffet,

I don’t think he did date set because he didn’t specify a given date…like September 24th.  He gave you a ballpark estimate inside of one year. I don’t see anything wrong with that at all. After all, Jesus did say no man will know the day or hour…..he didn’t say no man can know the year, did he? 

The Lord encourages us to watch and be ready and of course encourages us to seek wisdom. What is the worst case scenario here?  That he is wrong, right?  No big deal….the brother then has to move on and keep studying. In the meantime, we all can grow a bit just by looking at his research and test it for ourselves….if I can be honest with you, I love to do that. I do feel it helps me sort out what I believe and what I don’t believe is right. 
 

Anyhow, that is how I see it. It’s okay if you don’t agree with me.

Cheers, Spock

Shalom, @Spock.

Obviously, it's a moot subject since it's been now after April 2024 about 2 months.

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Dennis1209.

I hope you're right, but ... who but God knows? It's becoming more and more unlikely.

How many are still alive who saw and witnessed the rebirth of Israel in 1948 and were old enough to know what was happening? This happened nine years before I was even born! My dad, who saw the day in his lifetime, has already passed away.

2024 A.D. - 1948 A.D. = 76 years. One who was 18 at the time it happened would be 104 years old today!

Hi Retrobyter,

There is no argument here, and time is rapidly ticking away. Below, Matthew begins an independent statement in 24:32 from what preceded. In most cases, I have observed that the fig tree is a simile for national Israel, and the olive tree is spiritual. I judge these verses apply to the fledging nation of Israel from the diaspora in 1948.

Others have a different interpretation of what these verses are implying, and they may be correct. It is a matter of personal exegesis, and I do not claim my view is the correct one.

Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: ³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. ³⁴ Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

If my thoughts are accurate, and by no means am I dogmatic, then someone born on or after May 14, 1948, is the terminal generation. With this thinking, asking how long a biblical generation would be applicable in the timeline is natural. The most current average longevity for humankind is:

Psalm 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. [70-80 years]

Providing this exegesis is correct, and Matthew and Psalms are associated, it is a matter of some simple arithmetic. I, too, hope this “theory” and interpretation is correct; it is not a date set but a season (a window) of the Lord’s return for His bride.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus admonishes us with examples and parables to watch for His return. There appear to be consequences for those sleeping on the job.

Watch ~ ①     to stay awake, be watchful (Herm. Wr. 11, 21b; 1 Macc 12:27; 2 Esdr 17:3) Mt 24:43; 26:38, 40; Mk 13:34; 14:34, 37; Lk 12:37, 39 v.l.

            ②        to be in constant readiness, be on the alert (fig. ext. of 1; cp. Bar 2:9 al.; cp. our ‘keep one’s eyes open’) Mt 24:42; 25:13; 26:41; Mk 13:35, 37; 14:38; Ac 20:31; 1 Cor 16:13; 1 Th 5:6; 1 Pt 5:8; Rv 3:2f; 16:15; IPol 1:3. ^[1]

Someone on guard duty, a watchman, does not sleep on the job. Throughout history in the military, sleeping, being drunk, or leaving one’s post is an offense punishable by death, even in our military to this day in war. As Christian soldiers, we are at war; Ephesians Chapter Six gives us our defensive weaponry and one offensive weapon.

UCMJ Article 95: Offenses by sentinel or lookout — Crisp and Associates, LLC - Harrisburg Criminal Defense Attorneys (mymilitarylawyers.com)

 A watchman is looking for visual cues and signs of something impending that is coming. What signs, cues, conditions, and events are we looking for as Christians?

May 14, 2028, may come and go if the Lord tarries, and the very last person to be saved is not yet. We are given a ton of information indicating the nearness of the approaching tribulation, and it is here now. I have no doubt time is short.

 

 

---

^[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 208.

[farouk]

I really don't know what ppl think they are achieving by speculating about dates, which then pass.................

[NConly]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Providing this exegesis is correct, and Matthew and Psalms are associated, it is a matter of some simple arithmetic

I agree depending on genetics that generation could live  to 70, 80, or 90 years.

[The Light]

On 6/27/2024 at 6:14 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @The Light.

The Hebrew word in Psalm 90:10 translated "and we fly away" is "וַנָּעֻפָה" or "vannaa`ufaah." It stems from the Hebrew root "עוּף" or "`uwf ":

H5774 עוּף ʻûwph, oof; a primitive root; to cover (with wings or obscurity); hence (as denominative from H5775) to fly; also (by implication of dimness) to faint (from the darkness of swooning):
—brandish, be (wax) faint, flee away, fly (away), × set, shine forth, weary.

H5775 עוֹף ʻôwph, ofe (that is, like "oaf"); from H5774; a bird (as covered with feathers, or rather as covering with wings), often collectively:
—bird, that flieth, flying, fowl.

I believe this is more likely to be translated as "and we faint." That is, we succumb to death, and we become unconscious, ONLY to be made conscious again in the Resurrection.

Or, it could mean to be "covered" with earth; that is, "and we are covered."

No. It's fly away just as it is translated.

When you add a generation of strength which is 80 years to 1948 you get 2028.

The generation that sees the fig tree putteth forth leaves shall not pass until all these things are fullfilled.

If the second rapture occurs in 2028 that would line up perfectly with the arrival of Apophis in 2029 which could be one of the trumpets of wrath.

On 6/27/2024 at 6:14 AM, Retrobyter said:

How a person believes will affect how he or she translates Scripture

I think you yourself are proving your own point.

Edited July 12, 2024 by The Light

[Retrobyter]

10 minutes ago, The Light said:

No. It's fly away just as it is translated.

When you add a generation of strength which is 80 years to 1948 you get 2028.

The generation that sees the fig tree putteth forth leaves shall not pass until all these things are fullfilled.

If the second rapture occurs in 2028 that would line up perfectly with the arrival of Apophis in 2029 which could be the 5th trumpet of wrath.

I think you yourself are proving your own point.

Shalom, The Light.

No one goes to "Heaven." That's a fiction that was used to perpetuate the idea of the "continuity of life," that is, that life continues forever after death (and before the Resurrection); therefore, that life must go somewhere. Therefore, people must go either to "Heaven" or to "Hell." But, the Scriptures do NOT speak that way!

Instead, when we die, as Adam did, we die and are dead and remain dead until we are resurrected! In fact, we are to anticipate the RESURRECTION, not "going to Heaven when we die!" This fiction of "going to Heaven when we die" is why we have such a bad rap with atheists! It's physically undetectable; so, we perpetuate the myth with the idea of a "spiritual realm," which is supposedly another reality or another "dimension" of reality. But, again, this is UNSUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE!

See, the basic problem is that we have this ingrained concept of the "continuity of life," that is, that life continues between one's death and one's resurrection. But, the Scriptures don't speak this way! To the contrary, we read these things: Shlomoh haMelekh (King Solomon) said,

Ecclesiastes 9:1-10 (KJV)

1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, [are] in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred [by] all [that is] before them. 2 All [things come] alike to all: [there is] one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as [is] the good, so [is] the sinner; [and] he that sweareth, as [he] that feareth an oath. 3 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead. 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING, NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A REWARD; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 

9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that [is] thy portion in [this] life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

And, we also read that Yeeshuwa` said this: Note: Don't try to put words in Yeeshuwa`s mouth; just LISTEN to the logic behind what He was saying to the Sadducees. Their argument is called a "sheilah" in Hebrew, a "puzzle," intending to trap one's opponent in a dilemma he or she can't "wiggle out of."

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying,

"Master, Moses said, 

"'If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 

25 "Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 

32 "'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!"

33 And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine.

Now, think this through: He is talking about the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, which the Sadducees denied! THAT is when Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be "the living!" He's not talking about "them being alive in Heaven somewhere out there!"

If once is not enough, all three of the Synoptic Gospels have this account:

Mark 12:18-27 (KJV) 

18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

19 "Master, Moses wrote unto us, 

"'If a man's brother die, and leave [his] wife [behind him], and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 

20 "Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife."

24 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying,

"'I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Luke 20:27-40 (KJV) 

27 Then came to [him] certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, 28 Saying,

"Master, Moses wrote unto us, 

"'If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 

29 "There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife."

34 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord

"'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'

38 "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

39 Then certain of the scribes answering said,

"Master, thou hast well said."

40 And after that they durst not ask him any [question at all].

All three of these accounts of the same instance agree, and all use the SAME LOGIC! They are not counted as "the living" until they have been resurrected!

Yeeshuwa` also informed us that Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV ("Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob") will all be RESURRECTED as among those who belong to the Messiah! (See 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.)

This is where the definitions of "heaven" and "soul" come into play.

Whether one is talking about the dual Hebrew word "shaamaayim" in the Tanakh (the O.T.) or the singular Greek word "ouranos" in the B'rit Chadashah (the N.T.), that is sometimes used in the plural "ouranoi," BOTH words refer to the earth's ATMOSPHERE, the "SKY" or the "SKIES," where the birds fly! 

The word "soul" is the Hebrew word "nefesh" (often written "nephesh") and means "an air-breathing creature." (See Genesis 2:7.) The Greek word "psuchee" (from which we get our word "psychology") means the same thing, and was used to translated "nefesh" into the Greek. (See 1 Corinthians 15:45.) "Nefesh" comes from a root verb "naafash," which means "to breathe (air)."

Thus, when we die, our "air-breathing creature" - our "soul" - ceases to breathe air, and dies. It won't be awakened until the Resurrection, and then it will breathe air again. In point of fact, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, we will become "air-BLASTERS," blasting air like a wind! That's what the word "spiritual" actually means. It is the word "pneumatikos" means means "blasting air like a wind," stemming from "pneuma" which means "a wind" (although it is often translated as "a spirit," that is, the "wind" that a person makes when he or she is blowing, which may also carry a person's words and therefore his or her thoughts and attitudes to others).

Thus, contrary to common thought, there is no continuity of life between death and the resurrection. Some call this "soul sleep," but it is more like "temporary soul annihilation" or "temporary air-breathing-creature annihilation."

When we are "raptured," we go THROUGH the "heavens" - THROUGH the "skies" -  HORIZONTALLY and arrive in the Middle East! THAT'S our destination.

And, what in the world is a "generation of strength?" That's not in the Bible, either!

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, The Light.

No one goes to "Heaven." That's a fiction that was used to perpetuate the idea of the "continuity of life," that is, that life continues forever after death (and before the Resurrection); therefore, that life must go somewhere. Therefore, people must go either to "Heaven" or to "Hell." But, the Scriptures do NOT speak that way!                                                                                                  Instead, when we die, as Adam did, we die and are dead and remain dead until we are resurrected! In fact, we are to anticipate the RESURRECTION, not "going to Heaven when we die!" This fiction of "going to Heaven when we die" is why we have such a bad rap with atheists! It's physically undetectable; so, we perpetuate the myth with the idea of a "spiritual realm," which is supposedly another reality or another "dimension" of reality. But, again, this is UNSUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE! 

So you say there is no spiritual realm. And it's unsupported by scripture?

Eph 6

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Mark 9

25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

The Word seems to say differently.

 

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

 

See, the basic problem is that we have this ingrained concept of the "continuity of life," that is, that life continues between one's death and one's resurrection. But, the Scriptures don't speak this way! To the contrary, we read these things: Shlomoh haMelekh (King Solomon) said,

Ecclesiastes 9:1-10 (KJV)

1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, [are] in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred [by] all [that is] before them. 2 All [things come] alike to all: [there is] one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as [is] the good, so [is] the sinner; [and] he that sweareth, as [he] that feareth an oath. 3 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead. 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING, NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A REWARD; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 

9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that [is] thy portion in [this] life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

And, we also read that Yeeshuwa` said this: Note: Don't try to put words in Yeeshuwa`s mouth; just LISTEN to the logic behind what He was saying to the Sadducees. Their argument is called a "sheilah" in Hebrew, a "puzzle," intending to trap one's opponent in a dilemma he or she can't "wiggle out of."

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying,

"Master, Moses said, 

"'If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 

25 "Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 

32 "'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!"

33 And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine.

Now, think this through: He is talking about the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, which the Sadducees denied! THAT is when Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be "the living!" He's not talking about "them being alive in Heaven somewhere out there!"

If once is not enough, all three of the Synoptic Gospels have this account:

Mark 12:18-27 (KJV) 

18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

19 "Master, Moses wrote unto us, 

"'If a man's brother die, and leave [his] wife [behind him], and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 

20 "Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife."

24 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying,

"'I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Luke 20:27-40 (KJV) 

27 Then came to [him] certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, 28 Saying,

"Master, Moses wrote unto us, 

"'If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 

29 "There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife."

34 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord

"'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'

38 "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

39 Then certain of the scribes answering said,

"Master, thou hast well said."

40 And after that they durst not ask him any [question at all].

All three of these accounts of the same instance agree, and all use the SAME LOGIC! They are not counted as "the living" until they have been resurrected!

Yeeshuwa` also informed us that Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV ("Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob") will all be RESURRECTED as among those who belong to the Messiah! (See 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.)

This is where the definitions of "heaven" and "soul" come into play.

Whether one is talking about the dual Hebrew word "shaamaayim" in the Tanakh (the O.T.) or the singular Greek word "ouranos" in the B'rit Chadashah (the N.T.), that is sometimes used in the plural "ouranoi," BOTH words refer to the earth's ATMOSPHERE, the "SKY" or the "SKIES," where the birds fly! 

The word "soul" is the Hebrew word "nefesh" (often written "nephesh") and means "an air-breathing creature." (See Genesis 2:7.) The Greek word "psuchee" (from which we get our word "psychology") means the same thing, and was used to translated "nefesh" into the Greek. (See 1 Corinthians 15:45.) "Nefesh" comes from a root verb "naafash," which means "to breathe (air)."

Thus, when we die, our "air-breathing creature" - our "soul" - ceases to breathe air, and dies. It won't be awakened until the Resurrection, and then it will breathe air again. In point of fact, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, we will become "air-BLASTERS," blasting air like a wind! That's what the word "spiritual" actually means. It is the word "pneumatikos" means means "blasting air like a wind," stemming from "pneuma" which means "a wind" (although it is often translated as "a spirit," that is, the "wind" that a person makes when he or she is blowing, which may also carry a person's words and therefore his or her thoughts and attitudes to others).

Thus, contrary to common thought, there is no continuity of life between death and the resurrection. Some call this "soul sleep," but it is more like "temporary soul annihilation" or "temporary air-breathing-creature annihilation."

When we are "raptured," we go THROUGH the "heavens" - THROUGH the "skies" -  HORIZONTALLY and arrive in the Middle East! THAT'S our destination.

I think the Word says when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

And, what in the world is a "generation of strength?" That's not in the Bible, either!

Psalms 90

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

[Neighbor]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No one goes to "Heaven." That's a fiction that was used to perpetuate the idea of the "continuity of life," that is, that life continues forever after death (and before the Resurrection); therefore, that life must go somewhere. Therefore, people must go either to "Heaven" or to "Hell." But, the Scriptures do NOT speak that way!

 

 

The Bible speaks:

“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.  But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,  desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.  So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.  And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.  And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,  for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’  Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’  And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’  But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

So you say there is no spiritual realm. And it's unsupported by scripture?

Eph 6

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Mark 9

25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

The Word seems to say differently.

Shalom, @The Light.

Well, there is a BIG difference between the words "spiritual" and "demonic!"

A "demon" or "daemon," or a "daimoon" (δαίμων or δαιμόνιον) in Greek, is a "lesser god" in Greek mythology. They are called a "devil" or "devils" (δαιμόνια) in the KJV.

I was first introduced to the word "daemon" in computer technology: A "printer daemon" is the subprogram that controls the workings of a printer in a multiple computer environment, all computers of which have access to the same printer. The printer daemon controls which print job in the print queue is printed when, based upon priority.

G1142 δαίμων daímōn, dah'-ee-mown; from δαίω daíō (to distribute fortunes); a dæmon or supernatural spirit (of a bad nature):
—devil.

The word itself was only used 5 times in the Greek NT: Matthew 8:31; Mark 5:12; Luke 8:29; and Revelation 16:14 and 18:2. 

Its neuter derivative, "daimonion" (δαιμόνιον), was used far more often: 60 times.

G1140 δαιμόνιον daimónion, dahee-mon'-ee-on; neuter of a derivative of G1142; a dæmonic being; by extension a deity:
—devil, god.

The verbal form of the word meaning "controlled by a demon or demons" is ...

G1139 δαιμονίζομαι daimonízomai, dahee-mon-id'-zom-ahee; middle voice from G1142; to be exercised by a dæmon:
—have a (be vexed with, be possessed with) devil(-s).

"Daimonizomai" (from which we get the word "demonize") is found 13 times in the Textus Receptus of the KJV.

These are different words than is used elsewhere in the Greek NT, also translated as "devil" in the KJV. A "diabolos" (διάβολος) is one who "throws through" a person's reputation. He is a "traducer" or a "slanderer."

G1228 διάβολος diábolos, dee-ab'-ol-os; from G1225; a traducer; specially, Satan (compare H7854):
—false accuser, devil, slanderer.

G1225 διαβάλλω diabállō, dee-ab-al'-lo; from G1223 and G906; (figuratively) to traduce:
—accuse.

All of these words are strictly Greek in origin, but the Hebrew word is "sheed" (שֵׁד) and "sheediym" (שֵׁדִים) in the plural. Only the plural is found in Scripture.

This word is only found in Deuteronomy 32:17 and Psalm 106:37. Both are talking about the false gods of other nations to whom were sacrificed children.

The word for "spirit" in the Tanakh (the O.T.) is "ruwach" (רוּחַ) and it means a "wind." This is also the word for a person's "breath" resembling a "wind," as when a person "blows" air. As such, it can also apply to a person's "words" and the "thoughts" and "emotions" and "attitude" behind those words. It is also the SOURCE of some infections into the body, as in air-borne viruses, bacteria, spores, and pollen.

H7307 רוּחַ rûwach, roo'-akh; from H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
—air, anger, blast, breath, × cool, courage, mind, ×quarter, × side, spirit(-ual), tempest, × vain, (whirl-) wind(-y).

"Evil spirits" or "familiar spirits" are the Hebrew word "'oVot" (אֹבוֹת) often with the definite article attached "haa'oVot" (הָאֹבוֹת), is the plural of "'owV" (אוֹב):

H178 אוֹב ʼôwb, obe; from the same as H1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father's name); properly, a mumble, i.e. a water-skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar):
—bottle, familiar spirit.

This latter word and its associated words, like "hayyid`oniym" (הַיִּדְּעֹנִים) meaning "the-knowers-of-'owV," were forbidden practices common in other cultures surrounding Israel, and were ways that their "witch doctors" could deceive their own people. God said to cut them off from the people.

I won't deny that Yeeshuwa` could remove these evil oppressions, but they are not so great as to classify a whole realm for them!

1 hour ago, The Light said:

I think the Word says when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Psalms 90

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

 

Sorry, but I think that if you will reason this out, you will find that this verse (2 Cor. 5:8) is relative to one's thought pattern. See, if I believed as you do that "life goes on after death" (which now is ... NONSENSE to me), yes, it would sound like we would immediately be in His presence when we die.

HOWEVER, if you believed as I do that "one is dead after death and won't be made alive until the Resurrection," then you would also accept Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING, NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A REWARD; for the memory of them is forgotten." Thus, there is a GAP in the knowledge a person has, that is just as long as the gap of life between a person's death and his or her Resurrection!

So, one closes his or her eyes in death, and the next thing they know, they're opening them in the presence of the Lord at the Resurrection, hearing His voice! From the perspective of the dead individual, THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO BELIEFS! IT SEEMS TO HIM OR HER THAT NO TIME HAS PASSED!  The only difference is the TIMING of the event of being in His presence, which would only be known by one who had been alive in between those two events! However, from the dead person's perspective, there's no difference at all!

The same thing would be true for 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus (Yeeshuwa`) died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God (the Father) bring with him (with Yeeshuwa`). 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord (Yeeshuwa`) himself shall descend from heaven (from the sky) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

One should also keep in mind this passage, in which Yeeshuwa` said,

John 5:25-30 (KJV)

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

So, here is the timing of the events:

The Lord Yeeshuwa` haMaashiyach 'Elohiym shall descend from the sky with a shout, the voice of the principle messenger, and the trumpeting of 'Elohiym. Then, the dead ones shall hear the voice of the Son of God saying, קוּם  וּצְאוּ אֵלַי or "Quwm uwts'uw 'eelay" or "Arise and come to me!"  And those who belong to Him - the dead in the Messiah -  shall be raised to life as glorified bodies, and they shall live! They shall come forth out of the graves and tombs, crypts and mausoleums, as glorified bodies unto the resurrection of life, and those who are still alive, shall be transformed into new, glorified bodies. They all shall be snatched away into the sky by His messengers to meet the Lord Yeeshuwa` in the air, and God shall bring them with the Messiah to HIS predetermined destination, the Middle East, beginning at Botsrah in what used to be Edom or Idumea, the ancient land of Esau, south of the Dead Sea.

(Yeeshuwa` speeds on ahead of the rest of us, for His mission to rescue the children of Israel is paramount and urgent.)

[Retrobyter]

On 7/9/2024 at 11:24 AM, Neighbor said:

The Bible speaks:

“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.  But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,  desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.  So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.  And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.  And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,  for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’  Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’  And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’  But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

Shalom, @Neighbor.

I don't deny Yeeshuwa`s account of the rich man and 'Eleazar ("Lazarus"), but I think we've misinterpreted what He was talking about. Most think this is talking about the dead being sent to "Hades" as though that were the "realm of the dead," a compartment deep within the earth (perhaps, even in its center), that was (once) divided between "Hell" and "Paradise" with a great gulf between them.

BUT, THIS part is all theological mumbo-jumbo! Now, to believe that, one must ask, "Is it still that way or did it change after Yeeshuwa`s time in 'Hell' and after His Resurrection?" It's a theoretical PLAYGROUND for "theologians." It's just one more thing to dicker about.

My dad, who was an independent Baptist pastor for a while, taught that we could learn a lot from this account (not said to be a "parable," btw). He said that a person could still feel and experience pain and talk to others while in "Hell." I think we should turn that around:

Let's read it again:

"The rich man also died and was buried.  And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 “Then he cried and said,

"‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’"

So, the word "Hades" is NOT "Hades" of Greek mythology! Can you imagine Yeeshuwa`, a JEW, resorting to a GREEK MYTH to explain anything?! It's unthinkable! Even the translator wouldn't do that!

No, the Greek of these verses is this:

16:22   ἐγένετο δὲ ἀποθανεῖν τὸν πτωχὸν καὶ ἀπενεχθῆναι αὐτὸν ὑπὸ τῶν ἀγγέλων εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Ἀβραάμ· ἀπέθανεν δὲ καὶ ὁ πλούσιος καὶἐτάφη
16:23   καὶ ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ ὑπάρχων ἐν βασάνοιςὁρᾷ τὸν Ἀβραὰμ ἀπὸ μακρόθεν καὶ Λάζαρον ἐν τοῖς κόλποις αὐτοῦ
16:24   καὶ αὐτὸς φωνήσας εἶπεν Πάτερ Ἀβραάμ ἐλέησόν με καὶ πέμψον Λάζαρον ἵνα βάψῃ τὸ ἄκρον τοῦ δακτύλου αὐτοῦ ὕδατος καὶ καταψύξῃ τὴν γλῶσσάν μου ὅτι ὀδυνῶμαι ἐν τῇ φλογὶ ταύτῃ

Transliterated, this is:

16:22 Egeneto de apothanein ton ptoochon kai apenechtheenai auton hupo toon aggeloon eis ton kolpon tou Abraam; apethanen de kai ho plousios kaietafee
16:23 kai en too hadee eparas tous ofthalmous autou huparchoon en basanoisora ton Abraam apo makrothen kai Lazaron en tois kolpois autou
16:24 kai autos fooneesas eipen Pater Abraam ele-eeson me kai pempson Lazaron hina bapsee to akron tou daktulou autou hudatos kai katapsuxee teen gloossan mou hoti odunoomai en tee flogi tautee

Never mind the impossibilities presented by this scenario, for instance, FINDING presumably-cool water (hudatos) in the center of the earth or anywhere lower than the earth's surface, or finding a "kolpon tou Abraam" - a "bosom of-the Abraham" - a pocket of ... what? ... where one could be at peace and secure and in comfort, in the center of the earth, next door to a place of flame?! Where did Lazarus get "to akron tou daktulou" - "the tip of-the finger" - to dip into water?! Where did the rich man get "teen gloossan mou" - "the tongue of-me" if HE'S DEAD AND BURIED ELSEWHERE?

The Greek word "hadee" means "unseen":

G86 ᾅδης háidēs, hah'-dace; from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:
—grave, hell.

G1 Α A, al'-fah; of Hebrew origin; the first letter of the alphabet; figuratively, only (from its use as a numeral) the first:
—Alpha. Often used (usually ἄν án, before a vowel) also in composition (as a contraction from G427) in the sense of privation; so, in many words, beginning with this letter; occasionally in the sense of union (as a contraction of G260).

G427 ἄνευ áneu, an'-yoo; a primary particle; without:
—without. Compare G1.

G1492 εἴδω eídō, i'-do; a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent G3700 and G3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:
—be aware, behold, × can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare G3700.

So, "en too hadee" literally means, "in the unseen," used as we would say, "in the unknown"; and I believe that it is a reference to THE FUTURE. So, I see this as happening in the future at a time AFTER the resurrection of the unjust - the rich man's resurrection - at the end of the Millennium, possibly during the Great White Throne judgment, before he stands trial or even afterward. The rich man has recently been resurrected and doesn't know what's going on, nor is Abraham inclined to inform him. "Sending 'Eleazar back to warn his brothers" is not (I believe) a real possibility, but not knowing that MAY be a part of the punishment! Being resurrected and being thrown into the Lake of Fire, he could feel the pain in the Lake of Fire, and he would have his tongue back! 'Eleazar ("Lazarus") being previously resurrected, would have all of his fingers AND cool water, even nearby, to drink.