Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[iamlamad]

On 12/17/2022 at 7:53 PM, DeighAnn said:

No, I do not.  I just don't think you are taking into consideration what was taking place on the earth the day Jesus turned 29.  Just because Jesus came and a new covenant was brought forth DOESN'T CHANGE a single promise God made previously.  DOESN'T CHANGE a single event that took place.  DIDN'T STOP the continued advance of those things set in motion hundreds of years before.  

ANYONE who doesn't KNOW those things just starts a new story, and that isn't what is going on in the written world.  

The fullness of the gentiles doesn't mean the 'church age' (another made up thing) 'ends' or the church is raptured.  It means something completely different than that.  AND we can read about it in Romans 
 

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Remember the evaluation of the CHURCH given by Christ?  Did it seem to be 'continuing' in His goodness?  
 

23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


THE BLINDNESS COMES OFF and the branches are grafted back in and ALL ARE MADE ONE. 

If the church is raptured off to heaven then NONE OF THAT MAKES ANY SENSE.  

Everyone who becomes a Christian becomes of Abrahams and so of Jacob.

So

Maybe the CHURCH should be going back to the schoolmaster instead of looking to fly away...that's all I am saying

I am flying away with the rest of the Bride. If you wish to remain behind, I believe God will honor that.

What part of the pre-trib rapture does not make sense to you?
Would YOU allow YOUR children to to suffer under YOUR wrath? Few parents would.

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I am flying away with the rest of the Bride. If you wish to remain behind, I believe God will honor that.

What part of the pre-trib rapture does not make sense to you?
Would YOU allow YOUR children to to suffer under YOUR wrath? Few parents would.

This grieves me. Does a lack of correct understanding change what God has intended? Does it change His gaurantee that what has been sealed will not end with the guarantee promised by the sealing?

2Cor. 1:22 (NKJVS) who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Eph. 1:13 (NKJVS)   In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph. 4:30 (NKJVS) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

If I say that at the scene of the accident the engine had been separated from the gearbox which now lay in the middle of the road, what are the chances that I speak of a car accident? What other scene on earth has roads and on them machines that have an engine and a gearbox that can only be separated by exceptional release of energy?  

[double click not working...again   This isn't anything comparable to the resurrection.]

If God speaks of a sower, a field, and firstfruits, what student will deny that there will be a harvest? And if there is a harvest, then by observation, and by God's Word (e.g. Leviticus 23), what are the chances that there will be a harvest of firstripe, a general harvest a little later and gleaning? 

This is just speculation.  The ONLY time we see the word "firstfruits" in regard to resurrection is the sole resurrection of Jesus Christ.  1 Cor 15:23.  Further, that verse also says in very plain words that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".  So we have ALL believers at the resurrection, and we have the resurrection at the Second Advent.  We know this because the OT prophesied about ONLY 2 advents or comings of the Lord.  So ALL references to the "coming of the Lord" is technical for the Second Advent.  So your logic doesn't work.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

In 1st Corinthians 15:23 it says that we who are Christ's will be resurrected "at His coming". The word "coming" literally means "presence" ("Parousia" - Gk.). It is different to Erchomai (his "arrival") and "Apokalypsis" (His Revealing). The "coming" of our Lord is a series of "presences". He is now "present" above the highest heaven because that is where His Father's Throne is. In a short while, He will be "present" in heaven to receive His throne and crown (Rev. Chapte 4). He continues His downward journey and must pause in the clouds because that is where He meets with His raptured Church. He would have "arrived" (erchomai) in the clouds and be "present" (parousia) when Church arrived in the clouds. 

First, the actual Greek is literally "those of Christ".  So, who do you imagine that would include?  Since salvation has always been by grace through faith, ALL the OT saints are "those of Christ", and so 1 Cor 15:23 in NO WAY excludes any saved person.

Second, the word "coming" specifically refers to His return to earth, and the OT prophesied of ONLY 2.  I think you are trying to make of mountain out of a mole hill.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

After having judged His Church, and AFTER "the tribulation of those days", our Lord Jesus, Who has been hidden from all except His Church, blasts through the clouds like lightning and touches down on Mount Olives. All around Judah SEE Him. He thus;
(i) Has "arrived" (erchomai) on earth
(ii) He is "present" on earth (parousia)
(iii) He is "revealed" to the world (apokalypsis)

What all this is about it that "His COMING" in 1st Corinthians 15:23 is really His PRESENCE - first in the upper air, the lower air where the clouds are and then on earth is ONE EVENT that may span 10 years. While in the clouds, He gathers His Church. After that He is "present" in Jerusalem and Judah and Armageddon. His PRESENCE encompasses all His activities from arriving in the clouds to gather Israel from the four winds in Matthew 24:31.

More than enough time to have several harvests.

Again, the problem is that the Bible ONLY speaks of a single resurrection, and NOTHING about multiple resurrections, much less multiple harvests.  That's all just speculation.

Please find any verse that clearly shows more than 1 resurrection.  In fact, you can't.  Rev 20:5 plainly tells us that the resurrection of the martyrs from the Tribulation are in the FIRST resurrection.  That alone blows your theory away.

One resurrection of the saved - occurs at the Second Advent.  Plainly taught in Scripture.

As to the idea of a pretrib rapture, there are NO verses that describe Jesus taking glorified immortal believers to heaven.  Which would be the ONLY thing that would support a pretrib rapture.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

I ask because you don't give Chapter and verse.  I give Chapter and verse that stated  EXACTLY that BUT you don't respond to HOW THAT verse is being interpreted WRONG you just keep going back to the one verse you like.  

[double click not working.  Grrr.  No, I have given you plenty of chapers and verses, and you don't do that.  The verses I quote fully support my view.  And I keep explaining how your questions aren't even logical.]

IF CORRUPTION CAN'T INHERIT IMMORTALITY
And Jesus body didn't see CORRUPTION when He went to HELL
THEN how can a body that is raised out of the corruption, AS YOU CLAIM IT DOES (RESURRECTED OUT FROM THE DEAD WHEN HE RETURNS) be receiving IMMORTALITY?

[Again, your questions are moot.  The Bible SAYS "corruption puts on incorruption".  If you are able to comprehend this, from 1 Cor 15-

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 

43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

then you will realize how unnecessary your question is.  No offense intended.]

If JESUS is the FIRST of them that slept, then how is it them that SLEPT didn't rise with HIM?   He would have had to have been the FIRST OF ALL WHO EVER SLEPT. 

[The answer is OBVIOUS.  Jesus was resurrected 3 days after His death.  All believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent.  I'm really amazed at the lack of understanding here.  How in the world could present day believers be "raised with Him" anyway?  Please think through your questions before presenting them.

You keep putting forth ONE resurrection BUT at different times EVEN THOUGH it is written the resurrection is BOTH of the saved and the unsaved.  

[Another totally unnecessary question.  Yes, there are a total of 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  When I am discussing the singular resurrection of the saved, there IS ONLY ONE to discuss.]

Those are just 3 things that your over verse doesn't cover yet you wont address them. 

[Then be thorough in your explanation of what "my over verse" (?) doesn't cover and what I won't address.  I don't accept your claim.] 

GO back over all the posts and you will see you can see the one verse you believe but it is at the blindness to all those that go against it. 

[No way am I going over "all the posts".  You've got to be kidding.  If you want answers, you need to provide concise questions with proper context so I know what you are asking and the context for the question.

WHAT do you do with the verses you have not addressed???   

[So give them to me.  Hint:  one or two at most at a time.]

SO YES, it is true, you have said the same thing over and over again, but you have never addressed or taught what the problem is with the rest. 

[You've never been clear as to what you want addressed.  I've even explained that your questions aren't legitimate, and as you note here, I have said "the same ting over and over".  So what do you think I've kept going over?  The answer to your question.  Which you just keep asking, over and over.  It seems they aren't getting through to you.]

SO I will keep putting forth those that go against that one verse that you have incorrectly put forward until you address all that come against it so that anyone who does hear your unswerving dedication 'to it making it appear' to be truth, UNTIL you do.  

[OK, please go ahead and PROVE that I have "put forth that one verse INCORRECTLY".  Can you do it?]

SO if you 'don't assume' then give me the Scripture that says

SPIRITS ARE RETURNING, GOING AND JOINING UP WITH DECAYING CARCASSES TO BE RAISED IN GLORY JUST TO NEGATE
It is sown in corruption; IT IS RAISED IN GLORY.  
and
The NEVER DIE are resurrected OUT FROM the dead.

Still waiting for your explanation of the difference between "from the dead" and OUT from the dead", if there really is any difference.  Why didn't you answer my question about that?

[FreeGrace]

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I am flying away with the rest of the Bride. If you wish to remain behind, I believe God will honor that.

What part of the pre-trib rapture does not make sense to you?
Would YOU allow YOUR children to to suffer under YOUR wrath? Few parents would.

I"m going to jump in here even though your post wasn't addressed to me.  When the Lord comes to resurrect all believers, do you really believe that any believer will "wish to remain behind"?  And even if there are some really stupid believers who would wish that, do you really think the Lord will 'honor that'?  Are you serious.

Actually EVERY part of the pre-trib rapture doesn't make sense.  It requires multiple resurrections, and the Bible is clear there is only one for the saved.  So there's that.

And, most importantly, there are NO verses that describe Jesus taking any glorified believers to heaven.  So there's that.

Finally, EVERY verse about "the coming of the Lord" is technical for the Second Advent, since the OT prophesied of ONLY 2 advents or comings of the Lord.  

[George]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I owe you all answers, and I will set to it shortly. The threads have run away while I was languishing, so my answer might be out of sync. I might answer you generally, but this, and the others were great threads and provoked an energetic response. Standby for replies.

Luv Y'all

AdHoc

I for one am glad you are back!

I'm always of the persuasion that you cannot learn anything unless your understanding is challenged.  I don't look at different viewpoints as a negative, but rather a positive to perhaps learn something I didn't know before.  So please, don't look at sincere questions that I asked as "challenging" your understanding, but rather trying to figure out how you came to certain conclusions that I may learn something I didn't understand from before.

You're one of the few people that I know that connected the 24 elders to the 24 Priestly divisions ... 

Be blessed,

George

[George]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

What all this is about it that "His COMING" in 1st Corinthians 15:23 is really His PRESENCE - first in the upper air, the lower air where the clouds are and then on earth is ONE EVENT that may span 10 years.

What event do you speculate lasts 10 years?

In Scripture, I do see a 45 day event that nobody seems to talk about ...

Dan 12:11  From the time that the daily sacrifice is removed and the abomination that causes desolation is set in place, there are 1,290 days. 

Dan 12:12  Blessed is the one who waits and attains to the 1,335 days. 

It appears there is a 45 day "cleanup" or something ... between the 1290 and the 1335 ... but I don't see a 10 year event ...

[AdHoc]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:21 AM, George said:

So could you term this a Bridal Rapture?  The Bride that is prepared to see the Lord now?  It's a term that is thrown around, and I'm wondering if this is what you are referring?

Yes. Let's look at Revelation 19:7-8.

 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints

The background of the "Marriage Feast" is found in Matthew 22 and 25. Note the absence of the Bride in those two parables. They pertain to (i) the Kingdom of Heaven, and (ii) the Guests. The Bride is conspicuous by her absence. Added to this, Ephesians 5:27 says; That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

But it is clear from Matthew, Mark and Luke, plus the letters, plus the letters to the seven Churches of Revelation, that ALL Christians will not be "without spot or wrinkle" when our Lord COMES! The Father has ordered the Wedding Feast, and like Isaac, the Holy Spirit has sought out a Bride for Christ. The burning question is; WILL THE FATHER DELAY THE WEDDING FEAST TILL ALL CHRISTIANS ARE PERFECTED?

The answer is NO! The Bride is a JOY to Christ. the Millennium is the time of JOY. Christ's Bride is a GIFT to His Son as REWARD. The Father will not delay the Wedding Feast. Now note the grammar of the two verses in Revelation 19.

1. "Blessed"! (v.9) That implies that some are NOT CALLED. This is confirmed in Matthew 22. The man accepted the invitation. He takes his place in the hall. He is ready to feast. But he is cast out. His "blessing" turns to curse. It is his GARMENT

2. "the wife hath MADE HERSELF ready". The preparation of the odor, make-up and garment is NOT of the Lord primarily. SHE mad HERSELF ready. And if the garment is WORKS (as the end of verse 8 says) then only the Christian with commensurate WORKS will be the Bride (for the wedding feast).

3. "the righteousness of the SAINTS" - NOT; "the righteousness of Christ". A double proof that this is not the garment of IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS given to every Christian. The Christian has TWO garments like Aaron. One is by God's ordination and that is for audience with God on the Day of Atonement. Without it, he cannot survive the Holy of Holies. That is God's righteousness for audience with God. But then his duties in the Most Holy Place are over, and Aaron must live his daily life. Outside the Holy of Holies he wears the Garment of Law. Moses gave about 620 laws. In keeping these Aaron becomes "blameless". His obedience to Law is HIS Garment.

In Matthew 22 and 25 it was WORKS that got the "called" one cast out. In Revelation 19 and 20 we have three REWARDS; (i) The Wedding Feast, (ii) to be a member of God's army to change the government of the earth, and (iii) to reign with Him as co-kings. 

But all is not lost. Whereas the Millennium is for REWARD, it is also the time of chastisement and perfection of those Christians who were unready. God destroys His enemies, but He chastises His OWN. At the end of the Millennium Christ is presented with His completed Bride. Notice the language in Revelation 21:2-4;

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away

(i) The Bride IS PREPARED. It is not "prepared HERSELF". An outside force perfected her
(ii) "They"  are the Church for they are God's Tabernacle
(iii) "His People" are the Church
(iv) No more "tears" for when thy missed the Wedding Feast and the Millennium they wept and gnashed their teeth.
(v)  No more "death". All Christians are resurrected, so the "death" here must be "hurt of the second death" threatened to Christians who did not overcome.

The Bride for the Wedding FEAST is a REPRESENTATIVE BRIDE. She is limited to the Overcomers of the Church. The Wife for the MARRIAGE is the whole Church - perfect without wrinkle of spot AT THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM.

Note: Many students of scripture explain the obscure parts of the Bible by Jewish Tradition. But our Lord Jesus was not flattering of their traditions. Shall we explain Biblical marriage by a Jewish wedding, or by God's Word? Is Biblical marriage a Vow? Is it a piece of Paper? Is it a Contract? Or is it a man and a woman (i) becoming one flesh, and (ii) cleaving together? Who was presiding officer at Adam and Eve's Marriage? Who dares to take God's Place - for "what God has JOINED ....". Who joined Isaac and Rebekah? God or man?

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Mk 7:13)

 

[Alive]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

3. "the righteousness of the SAINTS" - NOT; "the righteousness of Christ". A double proof that this is not the garment of IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS given to every Christian. The Christian has TWO garments like Aaron. One is by God's ordination and that is for audience with God on the Day of Atonement. Without it, he cannot survive the Holy of Holies. That is God's righteousness for audience with God. But then his duties in the Most Holy Place are over, and Aaron must live his daily life. Outside the Holy of Holies he wears the Garment of Law. Moses gave about 620 laws. In keeping these Aaron becomes "blameless". His obedience to Law is HIS Garment.

In Matthew 22 and 25 it was WORKS that got the "called" one cast out. In Revelation 19 and 20 we have three REWARDS; (i) The Wedding Feast, (ii) to be a member of God's army to change the government of the earth, and (iii) to reign with Him as co-kings. 

But all is not lost. Whereas the Millennium is for REWARD, it is also the time of chastisement and perfection of those Christians who were unready. God destroys His enemies, but He chastises His OWN. At the end of the Millennium Christ is presented with His completed Bride. Notice the language in Revelation 21:2-4;

This is the crux of where I have a disagreement with what you are suggesting. I have a bunch of scriptures and a differing thought to suggest, but since you are in an exchange with @George--I prefer to wait until he responds.

[George]

@AdHoc  I appreciate your views, however, I would disagree with the idea that the Wedding is AFTER the Wedding Feast.  

It appears you believe that the Wedding Feast is during the Mill. Reign for 1000 years and the Wedding is AFTER the 1000 years when the Bride is ready.

Personally, I see the Wedding Feast Parable showing some clues that most people seem to miss.  

1st, those who were inviting those to the feast were beaten, and the King was angry, and sent forth his armies to destroy their kingdom.  In this clue, we know that the FEAST is AFTER their city is destroyed.  So it appears to be AFTER the return of the Lord in Revelation 19.

2nd, it appears that the Wedding Feast is on earth according to Isaiah 25.

Isa 25:6  And in this mountain Jehovah of Hosts shall make a feast of fat things for all the people, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of refined wine on the lees. 

Isa 25:7  And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering which covers all people, and the veil that is woven over all nations. 

Isa 25:8  He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord Jehovah will wipe away tears from all faces. And He shall take away from all the earth the rebuke of His people. For Jehovah has spoken. 

Isa 25:9  And one shall say in that day, Lo, this is our God. We have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is Jehovah; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation. 

So it appears that this wedding feast is not only in Jerusalem in God's Holy Mountain, but also that it's AFTER the saints have been given their glorified bodies.  This passage, "swallow up death in victory" is where Paul is quoting when discussing 1 Cor. 15.

1Co 15:51  Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed; 

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. 

1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 

1Co 15:54  But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.

Since it appears that the Wedding Feast is actually on EARTH ... and it also appears that the saints clothed in linen are in heaven at the beginning of Revelation 19 ...

The man without a wedding garment I believe could be like the person trying to sneak into the Super Bowl without a ticket!  If the wedding feast is on earth ... and it's the biggest event in the world ... and we know there are survivors of Armageddon ... Zec 14:16  And it shall be, everyone who is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of Hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.  ... that it appears the text could be a reference to a survivor trying to sneak into the wedding feast.

I agree with you that the linen garments are the works of the saints ... as it says in Rev. 19, and if you study the wedding celebration ... then you realize this separation time when the bridegroom is building the house ... that the bride's job is to sew her wedding garment and prepare it laviously for her wedding day.

Anyway, just throwing some thoughts out there ...