Is it possible that homosexuality is a birth defect?

[kwikphilly]

2 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Thanks for your comment.  I don't personally believe it's a sin to be a bit different than the norm.  Yes,  there are some girls that are totally straight but are tomboys or a bit more masculine than other girls.  Also there are boys that are somewhat feminine and yet straight.  I honestly don't see anything wrong with this. There's nothing in the Bible that says how each sex is supposed to act.  It doesn't say boys HAVE to like sports, and cars,  and tools. There's nothing that says girls HAVE to like dresses, and shopping, and makeup. That's kind of a joke but I think you get my point. The Old Testament does forbid men from dressing in women's clothing and obviously same sex practices,  but other than that,  there is no rules about it. Also on a side note,  I think the church has done a terrible job of showing those with same sex attractions compassion. God loves them just as much as he loves us,  and Jesus would be compassionate and merciful to them,  especially those who are struggling with doing the right thing and trying to resist their urges. Also on a personal note,  the Bible actually condemns heterosexual adultery and fornication MORE times than homosexuality. Sorry to ramble on.  Hopefully everyone understands what I'm trying to say,  but if I'm confusing,  feel free to ask questions.  God Bless.

My sentiments exactly- nothing confusing about it!!!!

[kwikphilly]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

It seems most people use this verse to teach loss of salvation for believers who engage in the behaviors listed.  However, there are two other verses with the same message, one of them stated a bit differently that helps clarify what Paul meant.

Gal 5:21 - and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 - For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Cor 6:9 - “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

All 3 verses list behaviors of the sin nature, and all make reference about inheriting the kingdom.

So, both 1 Cor 6:9 and Gal 5:21 say "will/shall not inherit the kingdom".

However, Eph 5:5 says "no immoral person has any inheritance IN the kingdom".

Yet, many people think this is about not entering the kingdom.  Since they understand "not inherit the kingdom" to mean "not get into the kingdom", they they take Eph 5:5 the same way.

Yet, Eph 5:5 doesn't say such people won't get into the kingdom, but rather, they shall have NO inheritance IN the kingdom.  Big difference.

What all 3 verses teach is that believers who exhibit such behaviors will lose out on eternal rewards IN the kingdom.  They will be IN the kingdom, but have NO inheritance or reward IN the kingdom.  Sort of an empty handed kind of deal.  But they will be very happy that they are IN the kingdom nonetheless.

I do believe the Scripture Reveals these that partake of such things are not Saved to begin with-even though they profess' I am a Christian"

Blessings- In His Love,Kwik

[Jayne]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

It seems most people use this verse to teach loss of salvation for believers who engage in the behaviors listed.  However, there are two other verses with the same message, one of them stated a bit differently that helps clarify what Paul meant.

Gal 5:21 - and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 - For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Cor 6:9 - “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

All 3 verses list behaviors of the sin nature, and all make reference about inheriting the kingdom.

So, both 1 Cor 6:9 and Gal 5:21 say "will/shall not inherit the kingdom".

However, Eph 5:5 says "no immoral person has any inheritance IN the kingdom".

Yet, many people think this is about not entering the kingdom.  Since they understand "not inherit the kingdom" to mean "not get into the kingdom", they they take Eph 5:5 the same way.

Yet, Eph 5:5 doesn't say such people won't get into the kingdom, but rather, they shall have NO inheritance IN the kingdom.  Big difference.

What all 3 verses teach is that believers who exhibit such behaviors will lose out on eternal rewards IN the kingdom.  They will be IN the kingdom, but have NO inheritance or reward IN the kingdom.  Sort of an empty handed kind of deal.  But they will be very happy that they are IN the kingdom nonetheless.

It's best to look at the context to see exactly whom Paul is talking about.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

In this context, Paul is speaking to the Christians at the church of Corinth ABOUT lost people who live the lifestyle of lost people.

[FreeGrace]

27 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

I do believe the Scripture Reveals these that partake of such things are not Saved to begin with-even though they profess' I am a Christian"

Blessings- In His Love,Kwik

But, why would Paul tell believers that unbelievers the reason they won't enter the kingdom is because of what they do?  When what one does isn't the criteria for entering the kingdom anyway?

NT epistles were written to believers, not unbelievers.  

I didn't include any context for Eph 5:5.  Maybe this is the time to do that.

1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 

2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 

3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 

4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 

5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

In v.1 Paul makes clear who he is addressing:  saved people (dearly loved children).

In v.2 he encourages saved people how to "walk", meaning lifestyle:  in the way of love, as Christ loved us (saved people).

In v.3 Paul admonishes saved people what "there MUST NOT NOT NOT be", which is EVEN a hint of immorality or impurity or greed.

Why not?  He answers, "because these are improper  for God's holy people".  What Paul didn't say was that saved people can't or won't do these things.

In v.4 Paul continues his admonition to saved people about what there "shouldn't be", which is obscenity, foolish/coarse talk/joking.  And He tells saved people WHY there shouldn't be any of that:  they are "out of place" (for saved people).  Again, Paul didn't say that saved people can't or won't engagge in that behavior.

Then, his conclusion for saved people"  "for this YOU (saved person) can be sure:  no immoral, impure or greedy person has any inheritance IN the kingdom of God". 

Notice the 3 descriptors in v.5 are the same descriptors in v.3.  And the whole context is directed to saved people.

[Alive]

It is important that Paul understood very well, that there was such a thing as false converts, as did John--and this very clearly.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Alive
typo

[FreeGrace]

3 minutes ago, Jayne said:

It's best to look at the context to see exactly whom Paul is talking about.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

In this context, Paul is speaking to the Christians at the church of Corinth ABOUT lost people who live the lifestyle of lost people.

Thank you.  I just addressed the context for Eph 5:5 to KP.  And all 3 verses are teaching the same thing.

I see no reason why Paul would tell saved people that unsaved people will not enter the kingdom because of their behaviors.

Do you believe that certain behaviors will keep people out of the kingdom?

Rather, Paul is teaching Christians that living like unsaved people will result in having NO inheritance IN IN IN the kingdom. 

iow, believers will be IN the kingdom, but have no inheritance there.

Col 3-

23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters,

23 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

The first heirship mentioned in Rom 8:17(a) is for all believers:  as His childrend, all believers will be with God for all eternity.

The second heirship mentioned in Rom 8:17(b) is an earned reward for "sharing in Christ's suffering in order to share in His glory".

Salvation is not earned because it is a free gift.  Rewards are earned by proper behavior.

[FreeGrace]

5 minutes ago, Alive said:

It is important that Paul understood very well, that there was such a thing as false converts, as did John--and this very clearly.

Correct.  And Paul called them what they are:  "false brethren".  Paul didn't use that term in 1 Cor 6:9, Gal 5:21 or Eph 5:5.  Because he was admonishing believers about the consequences of certain behaviors;  no inheritance IN the kingdom.

[kwikphilly]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But, why would Paul tell believers that unbelievers the reason they won't enter the kingdom is because of what they do?  When what one does isn't the criteria for entering the kingdom anyway?

NT epistles were written to believers, not unbelievers.  

I didn't include any context for Eph 5:5.  Maybe this is the time to do that.

1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 

2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 

3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 

4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 

5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

In v.1 Paul makes clear who he is addressing:  saved people (dearly loved children).

In v.2 he encourages saved people how to "walk", meaning lifestyle:  in the way of love, as Christ loved us (saved people).

In v.3 Paul admonishes saved people what "there MUST NOT NOT NOT be", which is EVEN a hint of immorality or impurity or greed.

Why not?  He answers, "because these are improper  for God's holy people".  What Paul didn't say was that saved people can't or won't do these things.

In v.4 Paul continues his admonition to saved people about what there "shouldn't be", which is obscenity, foolish/coarse talk/joking.  And He tells saved people WHY there shouldn't be any of that:  they are "out of place" (for saved people).  Again, Paul didn't say that saved people can't or won't engagge in that behavior.

Then, his conclusion for saved people"  "for this YOU (saved person) can be sure:  no immoral, impure or greedy person has any inheritance IN the kingdom of God". 

Notice the 3 descriptors in v.5 are the same descriptors in v.3.  And the whole context is directed to saved people.

I see your question is rhetorical- it's does not seem  you want to hear any answer I might offer .

That's fine,I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner - Paul is speaking at Corinth,Corinth at like I0 yrs after Aquila & Priscilla helped him there..... There were many many problems not only within the Body but the entire community- many things changed and Paul addressed each issue  .... So if you do believe all these converts were truly Born Again then I'm sure I won't change your mind and I'm not trying to,- you asked a question in which I suggested part of a problem at Corinth.

But now your talking about the church at Ephesus,they had their own issues......but you see ,at Corinth- such a diverse city ,many were playing with fire- who was marrying pagans, others attending the idol festivities,perversions,deep rooted Jewish Converts,the wretchedly poor & the highest elite- the city was probably much like Manhattan!!!!

Meanwhile everyone is pointing their fingers at everyone else,talking over husbands,some puffed up & all about appearances,lacking  leadership,adultery- you name it but they were not nice ,not kind to one another

I for one do not believe all were Born of Spirit,I can be wrong - but I won't mind when I see Paul and we talk and maybe he will say " Look Kwik- they're all here,every one" ..... wouldn't that be wonderful?

Be Blessed.    Kwik

Edited November 18, 2022 by kwikphilly
typos- auto fill

[FreeGrace]

55 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

I see your question is rhetorical- it's does not seem  you want to hear any answer I might offer .

 

 

 

Rhetorical questions do not suggest what you are suggesting.  Can you answer my question or not?  

You said:  "That's fine,I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner - Paul is speaking at Corinth,Corinth at like I0 yrs after Aquila & Priscilla helped him there..... There were many many problems not only within the Body but the entire community- many things changed and Paul addressed each issue  .... So if you do believe all these converts were truly Born Again then I'm sure I won't change your mind and I'm not trying to,- you asked a question in which I suggested part of a problem at Corinth."

Yes, Corinth sure did have a problem.  They were very carnal Christians.  I know that some believers don't believe that is possible, but Paul even called them that in 1 Cor 3-

1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 

2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 

3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 

4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

The Greek word for "worldly"-

sarkinos: of the flesh

Original Word: σάρκινος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: sarkinos
Phonetic Spelling: (sar'-kee-nos)
Definition: of the flesh
Usage: fleshly, consisting of flesh, carnal.

One of the congregants was sleeping with his step mother in 5:5.  A number of the congregation had died because of abusing the Lord's Table in 11:30.

And then we have this:

2 Cor 12-

 

20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. 

21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

So, yes indeed, they did have a problem, a big one!

However, throughout 1 Corinthians Paul affirms their SAVED state.  He didn't use the term "false brethren" ever in either epistle.

The posters that have responded to my initial post about 1 Cor 6:9 have demonstrated by claim that most believers think the verse is about the unsaved.

But that just doesn't make sense.  Who goes to the LOF on the basis of their behavior?  Do you have a verse that teaches this?

Then you finished with:  "But now your talking about the church at Ephesus,they had their own issues......but you see ,at Corinth- such a diverse city ,many were playing with fire- who was marrying pagans, others attending the idol festivities,perversions,deep rooted Jewish Converts,the wretchedly poor & the highest elite- the city was probably much like Manhattan!!!!

Meanwhile everyone is pointing their fingers at everyone else,talking over husbands,some puffed up & all about appearances,lacking  leadership,adultery- you name it but they were not nice ,not kind to one another

I for one do not believe all were Born of Spirit,I can be wrong - but I won't mind when I see Paul and we talk and maybe he will say " Look Kwik- they're all here,every one" ..... wouldn't that be wonderful?

Be Blessed.    Kwik"

Salvation is never on the basis of behavior.  And Paul's appeal of inheritance IN the kingdom is based directly on behavior.

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by FreeGrace
added info

[kwikphilly]

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

Rhetorical questions do not suggest what you are suggesting.  Can you answer my question or not?  

You said:  "That's fine,I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner - Paul is speaking at Corinth,Corinth at like I0 yrs after Aquila & Priscilla helped him there..... There were many many problems not only within the Body but the entire community- many things changed and Paul addressed each issue  .... So if you do believe all these converts were truly Born Again then I'm sure I won't change your mind and I'm not trying to,- you asked a question in which I suggested part of a problem at Corinth."

Yes, Corinth sure did have a problem.  They were very carnal Christians.  I know that some believers don't believe that is possible, but Paul even called them that in 1 Cor 3-

1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 

2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 

3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 

4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

The Greek word for "worldly"-

sarkinos: of the flesh

Original Word: σάρκινος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: sarkinos
Phonetic Spelling: (sar'-kee-nos)
Definition: of the flesh
Usage: fleshly, consisting of flesh, carnal.

One of the congregants was sleeping with his step mother in 5:5.  A number of the congregation had died because of abusing the Lord's Table in 11:30.

And then we have this:

2 Cor 12-

 

20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. 

21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

So, yes indeed, they did have a problem, a big one!

However, throughout 1 Corinthians Paul affirms their SAVED state.  He didn't use the term "false brethren" ever in either epistle.

The posters that have responded to my initial post about 1 Cor 6:9 have demonstrated by claim that most believers think the verse is about the unsaved.

But that just doesn't make sense.  Who goes to the LOF on the basis of their behavior?  Do you have a verse that teaches this?

 

I know exactly what I said and I just did answer even though you keep answering your own question.You don't agree with my perspective,I'm fine with that- 

Now I'm finished here