The Important People In The Church

[Starise]

I believe God has been working on me as I have always had a problem when looking at human interaction in terms of supposed status with relation to value.

You might rightly say I have a problem with authority when you read this, but I don't really think it's a problem with authority, it's a problem with how authority and status are viewed within a church and what seems to be some of the benefits that go along with it and the disadvantages that seem to follow those who are not as high in the chain.

TBH I'm the type of person that would be totally happy with home church so we could just get on with study and worship. Leave the other fluff at the door. From a psychological prespective, it could be said that people like me might have a poor self image and therefore we value status as a way to make ourselves feel better about ourselves, and if we are led to see value with a status label, then if we are at a low place in any organization, we feel devalued. I have tried hard to look at myself objectively. I don't think it's that I am that way as I know my worth in Christ. I feel valuable in Christ, I think it's the way I see fellow men using and viewing one another based on all of this I see as frustrating. It's like if you shake up a bunch of debris in water, some of it floats to the top, while other of it migrates to the lower levels of sedement, and there's the old saying about what tends to float to the top in the loo. Is that telling us something? I don't know.

We are often laid with a guilt trip by our brothers saying we need to all "assume our positions" happily to the Lord. "Be a happy toilet bowl cleaner". Hmmmmm  I guess that means maybe we need to get the stuff that floated to the top off first in order to clean that toilet.

When we enter churches we often enter more than just a bunch of people who love to serve the Lord wherever that may be. We enter buddy clubs, and internal power structures and clicks. And no matter how you slice it, the pastor has his favorite families and friends. Nothing wrong with that, but have you ever noticed how much it influences who does what? I don't think you need to look very hard for that one.

I see Christians being fed two different messages at many churches. "We are all the same, no matter what we do" Jesus loves little toilet bowl cleaners too Be that happy nursery worker in there with the babies every week. Then we have the periodic recognition times usually in main service. "Let's have a hand for our new, ms. so and so, our latest paid position" Everyone claps for them. Close friends with pastor-check. Comes from old church family-check. Have they even considered the other 300 members at all? Pastors being front and center always get double honor, yet we are told the most important work is outside the church. How many pastors do we see cleaning toilets or heads of committees actually doing any of the work they fully expect others to do? Oh, but the Lord didn't make us toilet bowl cleaners, no. Our skills are too important for that.

[Selah7]

36 minutes ago, Starise said:

When we enter churches we often enter more than just a bunch of people who love to serve the Lord wherever that may be. We enter buddy clubs, and internal power structures and clicks. And no matter how you slice it, the pastor has his favorite families and friends.

Yes, and clicks, imo, are definitely detrimental to the body of Christ, especially when they “gang up” on someone.  

[AnOrangeCat]

I kind of relate and strongly prefer home churches and other less formal gatherings. I guess the authority figures in my life had some very strong negatives and I always sort of existed outside of the rules. Hierarchies developing is just part of human nature, though I do think it's interesting and important to look at church positions back in the day and why they interested back in the early church times vs now. Back in the days when not everyone was literate and educated and had access to the Bible as it existed at the time there was a great deal of practical value attached to those who could read the written Word and verbally spread it to others. These days that element is sort of lost on us with literacy being widespread and Bibles being readily available in much of the western world.

49 minutes ago, Starise said:

How many pastors do we see cleaning toilets or heads of committees actually doing any of the work they fully expect others to do? Oh, but the Lord didn't make us toilet bowl cleaners, no. Our skills are too important for that.

With this it's important to remember that we don't often see the menial things that those in authority in a church do when others aren't looking. Similarly it's important for pastors and elders and other people in authority within the church to remember that Jesus stooped down to the menial task of washing the feet of His disciples and reminded us that we should all humble ourselves and serve others.

[Alive]

A servant will get right down in the ditches and dig along with the rest, because he sees no difference.

 

[Starise]

On 12/3/2022 at 10:23 AM, AnOrangeCat said:

With this it's important to remember that we don't often see the menial things that those in authority in a church do when others aren't looking. Similarly it's important for pastors and elders and other people in authority within the church to remember that Jesus stooped down to the menial task of washing the feet of His disciples and reminded us that we should all humble ourselves and serve others.

Thanks @AnOrangeCat for comments. Does the very act of observing one as 'stooping' say anything about that approach? If we are all the same, then why it it stooping? I get it. For Jesus it was stooping.

On 12/3/2022 at 10:27 AM, Alive said:

A servant will get right down in the ditches and dig along with the rest, because he sees no difference.

 

One of the very first churches I attended after moving north had a working pastor. He had been in the army and was a full time machinist as a trade. I think the church covered some of his expenses but it was really too small to support anyone. He was a genuine person and a good fellow. His approach was far from professional and I liked that. I don't want professional, I want real. I remember him cleaning toilets in the basement of that small church on cleaning day.

 

 

[Starise]

32 minutes ago, Alive said:

A servant will get right down in the ditches and dig along with the rest, because he sees no difference.

 

The reality most of the time.

 

 

[Alive]

I will guarantee the reader one thing---if you look for faults, your will most assuredly find them.

[Justin Adams]

23 minutes ago, Alive said:

I will guarantee the reader one thing---if you look for faults, your will most assuredly find them.

If you are honest and look in the mirror, you may find them there also.

[missmuffet]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

I believe God has been working on me as I have always had a problem when looking at human interaction in terms of supposed status with relation to value.

You might rightly say I have a problem with authority when you read this, but I don't really think it's a problem with authority, it's a problem with how authority and status are viewed within a church and what seems to be some of the benefits that go along with it and the disadvantages that seem to follow those who are not as high in the chain.

TBH I'm the type of person that would be totally happy with home church so we could just get on with study and worship. Leave the other fluff at the door. From a psychological prespective, it could be said that people like me might have a poor self image and therefore we value status as a way to make ourselves feel better about ourselves, and if we are led to see value with a status label, then if we are at a low place in any organization, we feel devalued. I have tried hard to look at myself objectively. I don't think it's that I am that way as I know my worth in Christ. I feel valuable in Christ, I think it's the way I see fellow men using and viewing one another based on all of this I see as frustrating. It's like if you shake up a bunch of debris in water, some of it floats to the top, while other of it migrates to the lower levels of sedement, and there's the old saying about what tends to float to the top in the loo. Is that telling us something? I don't know.

We are often laid with a guilt trip by our brothers saying we need to all "assume our positions" happily to the Lord. "Be a happy toilet bowl cleaner". Hmmmmm  I guess that means maybe we need to get the stuff that floated to the top off first in order to clean that toilet.

When we enter churches we often enter more than just a bunch of people who love to serve the Lord wherever that may be. We enter buddy clubs, and internal power structures and clicks. And no matter how you slice it, the pastor has his favorite families and friends. Nothing wrong with that, but have you ever noticed how much it influences who does what? I don't think you need to look very hard for that one.

I see Christians being fed two different messages at many churches. "We are all the same, no matter what we do" Jesus loves little toilet bowl cleaners too Be that happy nursery worker in there with the babies every week. Then we have the periodic recognition times usually in main service. "Let's have a hand for our new, ms. so and so, our latest paid position" Everyone claps for them. Close friends with pastor-check. Comes from old church family-check. Have they even considered the other 300 members at all? Pastors being front and center always get double honor, yet we are told the most important work is outside the church. How many pastors do we see cleaning toilets or heads of committees actually doing any of the work they fully expect others to do? Oh, but the Lord didn't make us toilet bowl cleaners, no. Our skills are too important for that.

You are too concerned about what the other person is doing and about what the world thinks. You are overthinking all of this. It could be quite simple if you give all of your frustrations and concerns to Jesus  and then let it go. Just sit down in a quiet room and tell Jesus everything you have posted to us. We live in a very imperfect and dark world. We all have some serious issues with this world at times and even the Christian world. God knows exactly what you are dealing with and He is the one who genuinely understands. 

[Starise]

3 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

You are too concerned about what the other person is doing and about what the world thinks. You are overthinking all of this. It could be quite simple if you give all of your frustrations and concerns to Jesus  and then let it go. Just sit down in a quiet room and tell Jesus everything you have posted to us. We live in a very imperfect and dark world. We all have some serious issues with this world at times and even the Christian world. God knows exactly what you are dealing with and He is the one who genuinely understands. 

Frankly I could just walk away from all of it right now. That would be letting it go right? I will be off due to sickness tomorrow and eerily, I am going to enjoy the break. I am very tempted to take an extended break. It's probably a good thing I'm married, because my wife will keep me grounded. God forbid anything should happen to her for many reasons, but among them, I would maybe just sell everything and go live in a van. I really don't need the headaches that come with all of this, and if this is edification then I don't need to be edified.