Pre-Adamic World: Fact or Fiction

[Alive]

1 minute ago, kwikphilly said:

It's just absurd Brother - I've known you many many years and anyone accusing you as such is simply not listening- it is a spirit of pride that hardens their hearts and we must listen & see with the Eyes of our Heart....

Keep those in prayer,Love them to Life ❤️

With love in Christ, Kwik

Amen! I cannot belittle those of either side, because I simple do not know…I was not there. I can see both possibilities.

My only difficulty is evolution as it is taught. I do not think it is scipturally tenable, but I would not castigate those who do.

It can bear no fruit.

[Vine Abider]

11 hours ago, HAZARD said:

If God wanted us to know when the beginning was, He would have told us. Since He did not give even a hint, then let us leave it like it is. It could have been millions and billions of years ago, or it could have been a shorter period in the past. If geologists can prove the age of the Earth to be as old as they claim it is, why disagree with them. If they are right they are right, and if they are wrong they are wrong. Either way it would not contradict the Bible, as it does not set any time element in connection with the original creation of the heavens and the Earth. One thing is certain, according to Scripture, and that is the Earth is more than 6,000 years old, and there were inhabitants on the Earth before the days of Adam, as will be abundantly proved from many plain Scriptures.... It must be kept in mind that the heavens and the Earth were created in the dateless past as in Gen.1:1, and that the Earth was cursed and flooded because of sin as in Gen.1:2 before the six days of re-creation as in Gen. 1:3-2:25. Lucifer was already a fallen creature when he came into Adam's Eden. He had already ruled the Earth and had rebelled, and caused the first flood on the Earth before Adam was created.... Another thing is certain, God made His plan for the heavens and the Earth and all things therein, before He began to bring them into existence. Then, too, it is also certain that God brought them into existence, and that they are not a product of evolution as taught by many foolish men in their opposition to the Bible.

I pulled this out of that exceptionally long post - good stuff.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Vine Abider

[kwikphilly]

55 minutes ago, Alive said:

Amen! I cannot belittle those of either side, because I simple do not know…I was not there. I can see both possibilities.

My only difficulty is evolution as it is taught. I do not think it is scipturally tenable, but I would not castigate those who do.

It can bear no fruit.

Exactly- I Believe the same but if a Brother or a Sister Believes otherwise,no problem----itb especially irritates me with someone like SObG,if anyone was to accuse him of heresy-he has been a wonderful Blessing ,he walks in Spirit,I can always count on him for prayer,encouragement,edification& the Love of Christ .....we have different views on some " non- Salvational" issues( who cares?;😃) The Core Beliefs we are in One Accord!And he NEVER sows discord or contention......

I don't know,it's so easy to LOVE when you surrender the flesh - the enemy feeds on the flesh,he cannot trespass on God's Property - our spirit is off limits!!!!Praise Jesus!

Love you Brother! Prince of Peace,loose Holy Spirit upon this place❤️As it is in Heaven🙏

 

[farouk]

On 1/1/2023 at 8:03 AM, kwikphilly said:

I agree,in referencing the Books of Enoch- thats alot of very interesting reading but we just don't know which of it is which or even if what we have available is in fact the Books?????And you're right- that's a Topic for a separate thread!

I remember when I was very young reading " In the new beginning"  when I read someone's Bible - it stayed "stuck" in my mind for decades,of course bring raised catholic it was not in the catholic Bible- For the life of me I tried to remember who's Bible it was and what Bible it was...... Funny thing,huh?

So many friends said,"oh you probably just thought that's what it said".... No,I remember because it stood out to me even though I was just a little girl because I knew what my Dad taught me,I used to read Genesis over n over n over.....

Happy New Year Brother- a Bountifully Blessed 2023 to you ,your wife and fur babies❤️In Jesus Name

With love in Christ, Kwik

These things should divide no Brothers & Sisters- we always had these discussions & never had anything but love for one another🤔

 

Well.....the book of Enoch is Deuterocanonical........(Apocryphal)..

[BeyondET]

21 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

God bless you and those you love.

It would be interesting to know what beginning he is referring to.

I'm thinking the flood great tribulation in that time, giants wiped out, war in heaven some angels placed in chains. rest of mankind caught in the flood except Noah. Enoch went to son of Lamech who spoke to Noah about the tribulation.

Edited January 3, 2023 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

5 hours ago, farouk said:

Well.....the book of Enoch is Deuterocanonical........(Apocryphal)..

there might be something, quite a bit of known writings and seem to find new ones from time to time.

Yea the world might not be able to contain them all. I'm thinking the verse isn't just on how many the world couldn't contain.

John 21:25

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Edited January 3, 2023 by BeyondET

[Guest]

20 hours ago, HAZARD said:

THE ORIGINAL CREATIONS OF GOD THE ANTECHAOTIC AGE (Gen 1:1-2) PART 1: The Origin of All Things. Earth's First Sinless Career (Gen 1:1; Ezek 28:15) THE EARTH MADE PERFECT THE FIRST TIME The original creations of God include the heavens and the Earth and all things therein as first brought into being. This period is summed up in Gen.1:1 thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth." This refers to the dateless past, and takes in only a part of the creative ages.... that is, from the beginning of creation until the chaotic period of Gen.1:2 when the Earth and its first inhabitants were destroyed by the first flood. There are many other passages in Scripture that refer to this period (Job 38; Ps.8:3-8; 19:1-6; Prov.8:22-31; John 1:3,10; Acts 17:24-26; Col.1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-12; 11:3; Rev.4:11). I. GOD IN THE ETERNAL PAST Just what God did in the eternal dateless past no one knows, for He has not seen fit to reveal His activities from all eternity (Deut.29:29). All we know is that God existed from all eternity, and that sometime in the dateless past God brought into existence the heavens and the Earth and all things that were originally made therein. The present things that are on Earth were brought into existence in six days AFTER the destruction of the first creation of free moral agents that lived on the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25). That God existed from all eternity is very clear in Scripture: "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Ps.90:2); "Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting" (Ps.93:2; Prov.8:22-31; Micah 5:2; Heb.9:14; John 1:1-3; Rev.1:4-8; 4:8; 22:5,13). That God also created the heavens and the Earth and all original creations in them sometime in the eternal past is also clear: "In the beginning," whenever that was, and as there is no date for the beginning, it must refer to the dateless past. Any man who sets a date or a time for the beginning is simply adding to the Bible, and therefore, we refuse to even tolerate a statement of such a date in these lessons. If God wanted us to know when the beginning was, He would have told us. Since He did not give even a hint, then let us leave it like it is. It could have been millions and billions of years ago, or it could have been a shorter period in the past. If geologists can prove the age of the Earth to be as old as they claim it is, why disagree with them. If they are right they are right, and if they are wrong they are wrong. Either way it would not contradict the Bible, as it does not set any time element in connection with the original creation of the heavens and the Earth. One thing is certain, according to Scripture, and that is the Earth is more than 6,000 years old, and there were inhabitants on the Earth before the days of Adam, as will be abundantly proved from many plain Scriptures.... It must be kept in mind that the heavens and the Earth were created in the dateless past as in Gen.1:1, and that the Earth was cursed and flooded because of sin as in Gen.1:2 before the six days of re-creation as in Gen. 1:3-2:25. Lucifer was already a fallen creature when he came into Adam's Eden. He had already ruled the Earth and had rebelled, and caused the first flood on the Earth before Adam was created.... Another thing is certain, God made His plan for the heavens and the Earth and all things therein, before He began to bring them into existence. Then, too, it is also certain that God brought them into existence, and that they are not a product of evolution as taught by many foolish men in their opposition to the Bible. The Bible begins with "God" as the Creator of all things, and ends with "God" reigning over all things after rebellion against His moral government has been put down (Gen.1:1; 1 Cor.15:24-28; Eph.1:10; Phil.2:9-11; Rev.21-22). 11. THE DRAFTING OF GOD'S PLAN ....God's plan was made for, and is being worked out by ... separate and distinct persons. We have statements in Scripture which prove that all ... planned together, the plan that is now revealed in the Bible. The ... members of the Deity consulted in various places in working out this plan. In Gen.1:1 and in about 2,700 other places in the Hebrew Bible the word for "God" is Elohim, which is a uni-plural noun meaning "Gods" and is so translated 239 times in the King James Version (Gen.3:5; Ex. 22:28; 1 Sam.4:8; Dan.2:11; 4:6-9; 5:11,14; etc.). It is the plural of Eloah meaning "Deity" or "God." Translating this word literally in the English it would be "In the beginning Gods created the heaven and the earth." Sometimes it is used with plural pronouns as, "And Gods said, Let US make man in OUR image," thus not only showing plurality of persons, but that all persons had the same kind of image and likeness, and that not just one of them had a spirit body. In Gen. 3:22 it is expressed thus: "man is become AS ONE OF US," showing that all ... persons in the Deity were alike. The phrase "AS ONE OF US" means "like each one person of several, persons of the same kind," as proved wherever it is used in Scripture or in any other literature. It could not mean anything else in English. In Gen.11:7, the Gods said, "Let US go down, and there confound their language." Plural pronouns are used of God in other places in both Testaments (Isa.6:8; Ps.2:3; John 14:23; 17:11,22). It is perfectly scriptural to use the plural word "Gods" when we speak of ... separate persons in the Godhead .... There would be no sense to the meaning of one in unity if there was only one person in the Godhead. It is perfectly natural, therefore, if there be ... persons in the Deity that all of them would have a part, and would consult each other in the drafting of the plan. Where the Godhead dwelled in all eternity, and what they all did is not known. When and where the plan was drafted is not known, but it is stated in Scripture that God planned the worlds (ages) by Christ (Heb. 1:1-3; 11:3), and by Him all things were brought into being (Col. 1:15-18; Eph.3:9; John 1:1-3,10). The following passages prove that the plan was made and known unto God from the very beginning: "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times" (Isa.46:10-11); "This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth" (Isa.14:26-27); "Thou hast established the earth, and it abideth. They continue this day according to thine ordinances" (Ps.119:89-91); "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world" (Acts 15:18). See also Eph.1:4-11; 2:7; 3:5-11; 1 Pet.1:20. III.THE DISPENSATIONAL PLAN OF GOD FROM ETERNITY THROUGH ETERNITY (EPH.3:11) The following points will give the student a gist of the whole plan of God as revealed in the Bible from the eternal past to the eternal future....It would be profitable to study the plan... so that a general idea of God's program from eternity to eternity could be gained, and the student could begin to rightly divide the Word of Truth by associating the various Scriptures with the proper periods, or ages and dispensations. 1. God in the eternal past (Ps.90:2; 93:2; Mic.5:2; Heb.9:14). 2. The drafting of God's plan (Heb.1:3; 11:3; Eph.3:11; 1 Pet. 1:20). 3. Creation of the heavens, including the-sun, moon, and stars (Gen.1:1; Col.1:15-18; Ps.8:3; 90:2; 95:5; 102:25; Isa.40:12, 26; 45:12; 48:13). 4. Creation of the spirit-world (Job 38:4-7. Col.1:15-18). 5. Creation of the Earth. The Earth made perfect the first time (Gen.1:1; Job 38:4-7; Isa.45:18; Heb.11:3). 6. Creation of "the world [kosmos, social order] that then was" (2 Pet.3:5-9; Isa.14:12-14; 45:18; Jer.4:23-26; Ezek.28:11-17). 7. Lucifer's reign over "the world that then was" (Isa.14:12-14; Jer.4:23-26; Ezek.28:11-17; Col.1:15-18). The length of his rule is unknown. 8. Other thrones, dominions, principalities and powers placed over other parts of the universe (Col.1:15-18; Eph.1:21; 3:10; 1 Pet.3:22). 9. The Kingdom of God universal; God the Supreme Moral Governor of the universe, and all in harmony with Him (Job 3:8; Dan.4:17, 25,32,35). The length of the rule of the universal harmonious kingdom, before Lucifer started his rebellion is unknown. 10. Lucifer, the original ruler of the planet Earth, conceives the idea that he can get the co-operation of other angelic beings of the universe, dethrone God, and become the exalted supreme ruler of the universe (Isa.14:12-14; Ezek.28:11-17; 1 Tim.3:6). 11. Lucifer carries out his plans, and through pride falls and foments rebellion by slander and accusations against the Almighty. He causes his own earth-kingdom subjects and over one-third of God's angels (Rev.12:7-12) to rebel against Him. The Earth enters its first sinful career (Isa.14:12-14; Ezek. 28:11-17; 1 Tim.3:6). The length of the uprising is unknown. 12. Lucifer instigates rebellion and persuades everyone possible to rebel. He openly breaks relations with God and His government, and leads his rebels from the appointed place of mobilization on Earth into Heaven to dethrone God; but he is met by Michael and the faithful angels, and is defeated and cast as lightning back to the Earth (Isa.14:12-14; Ezek.28:11-17; Luke 10:18). 13. God completely destroys Lucifer's kingdom on Earth, and curses the Earth by destroying every bird, animal, fish, city, inhabitant, and all, vegetation. He then turns the Earth upside down and by means of a great flood makes it empty and a waste (Gen.1:2; Ps.104:5-9; Isa.14:12-14; Jer.4:23-26; Ezek.28:11-17; 2 Pet.3:5-9). The length of the pre-Adamite flood on the Earth is unknown. 14. The Spirit of God begins to move upon the flooded Earth and in the darkness which covered the waters to restore the Earth to a habitable state, and to create new land animals, fish, fowls, vegetation, and Adam as the new ruler of the Earth (Gen.1:2; Ps. 104:6-9). Length of the re-creation is six days (Gen.1:3-2:25; Ex.20:8-11; 31:13). 15. The Earth is made perfect a second time and all things in the universe are again in harmony with God as before Lucifer's rebellion; except Lucifer and his spirit rebels are still at large in the heavenlies to further God's plan in the probationary periods of the human race should man fall (Gen.1:3-2:25; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Job 1:6; 2:1; Rev.12:7-12). 16. THE FIRST PROBATIONARY PERIOD-The Dispensation of Innocence.... (Gen. 2:17-3:24). 17. Lucifer (now the devil or adversary of God and man called Satan) enters the restored Earth, tempts man and causes his fall, thus regaining dominion of the Earth and all things therein (Gen. 3; Luke 4; John 12:31; 2 Cor.4:4; Rev.11:15; 20:1-10). 18. Rebellion starts again on the Earth by the second ruler of Earth. Man is judged, the Earth is again cursed and enters its second sinful career, and all creatures are brought under the bondage of sin and corruption (Gen.3; Rom.5:12-21; 8:19-23). 19. "The heavens and the earth which are now" since the restoration work of the six days, and since the new curse on the Earth await the time of the second renovation, (or restoration of all things - the curse on earth from Adam and Eve into sin, is the curse of sin and what sin bring - Keith Hunt) and the third perfect state of the Earth, called the New Heavens and the New Earth (2.Pet.3:5-13; Rom.8:19-23; Heb.1:10-12; 12:24-28; Rev. 21-22). 20. THE SECOND PROBATIONARY PERIOD - The Dispensation of Conscience (Gen.3:1-8:14).... 21. THE THIRD PROBATIONARY PERIOD - The Dispensation of Human Government (Gen.8:15-11:9).... 22. THE FOURTH PROBATIONARY PERIOD - The Dispensation of Promise (Gen.11:10-Ex.12:51). The length of this period was 430 years (Ex.12:40; Gal.4:30). 23. THE FIFTH PROBATIONARY PERIOD - The Dispensation of Law (Ex. 13:1; Matt.4:1; 11:11; Luke 16:16). The length of this period was over 1,718 years from Moses to Christ. 24. THE SIXTH PROBATIONARY PERIOD - The Dispensation of Grace (John 1:17; Matt.4:1-Rev.19:21). The length of this period will be from the first advent to the second advent of Christ, and the binding of Satan in the abyss at the end of this age. It has already lasted 1,948 years (when Dake was writing this - Keith Hunt). 25. THE SEVENTH PROBATIONARY PERIOD - The-Dispensation of Divine Government or Millennium (Rev.20:1-10). The length will be 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-10). 26. At the end of the Millennium Satan will be loosed from the abyss to deceive the nations on the Earth; then will come the last rebellion on the Earth, and the destruction of all human rebels (Rev.20:7-10). 27. The second resurrection and final judgment at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:11-15). 28. The end of the Earth's second sinful career by the renovation of the immediate heavens and the Earth and the removal of all the curse and its effects (2 Pet.3:10-13; Rom.8:19-23; Heb.1:10-12; 12:24-28). 29. The confinement of all spirit and human rebels of all ages in the lake of fire forever (Matt. 25:41, 46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24) (the blackness of darkness forever - Jude 13 - Keith Hunt) 30. The New Heavens and the New Earth - the eternal perfect state with God all-in-all again, as before rebellion started in the universe with Lucifer and Adam (1 Cor.15:24-28). The Earth will be made perfect the third time (Isa.65:17; 66:22-24; 2 Pet.3:13; Rev.21-22). IV. THE CREATION OF THE MATERIAL UNIVERSE (GEN.1:1) By the creation of the material universe we mean the creation of the heavens and of the Earth, and all things originally created therein. The heavens were created first, then the Earth, as proved in Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7. The word beginning, as we have seen, refers to the dateless past when there was as yet no material universe, or the heavens and the Earth could not be spoken of as being created or brought into existence at that time. There was as yet no day and night, and no time on the Earth or in Heaven, for they were not yet created. Whether there was day and night or times and seasons where God lived before that, is not stated, and all speculation is valueless as to proof of the fact one way or the other. The word created is from the Hebrew word 'bara,' meaning to create, to make new or bring into existence without the use of pre-existing material. This latter idea is certainly true of the materials out of which the heavens and the Earth were formed. In Heb.11:3 we read that the "things which are seen [the visible things] were not made of things that do appear" or that were visible. If the heavens and the Earth were brought into existence, then it is certain that at one time they were not in existence. 'Bara' is found forty-nine times in the Hebrew Bible, and is translated 'create' eight times: 'created' thirty-three times; 'make' four times; 'Creator' three times; and 'createth' one time. The primary idea is to bring into existence something new, even if the something new is to be made out of already existing material. Perfection is generally implied, and is always implied when anything is a creation of God. Moses said, "His work is perfect" (Deut.32:4) and David said, "His way is perfect" (2 Sam.22:31). Solomon said that God "made everything beautiful in his time" (Eccl.3:11). In fact, a perfect God could not make anything imperfect. 'Bara' is used only seven times in Gen.1:1-2:4, the passage that records all the creative ages. It is correctly translated created in each case. In all other verses of this passage the word 'made' is used. It is from the Hebrew 'asah,' meaning to 'make something out of already existing material,' as explained in Point VII below. In Gen. 1:1 the heavens and the Earth are created or brought into existence; in Gen.1:21 the sea creatures are created or brought into existence; and in Gen.1:28 man is created or brought into being. Thus 'bara' is reserved for the introduction of each of the three great spheres of existence; the world of matter, the world of natural life as in all living creatures, and the world of spiritual life represented by man. The heavens and the Earth were brought into existence "In the beginning," while the living creatures and man were brought into existence on the fifth and sixth days of the restoration of the Earth to a habitable state. All other accomplishments in the six days were not of a creative nature but were things made out of already existing material which had been created, in the various periods or ages "In the beginning." The Hebrew word for heaven is 'shamayim,' meaning lofty, sky, the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve. It is found 657 times and in most places it should have been translated heavens. God created the heavens, which includes the sun, moon, stars, and all inhabitants of Heaven and all things therein. (He actually HAD created all these in timeless past, now they were appearing again ,visible as from standing on the earth as god was making visibility once more - see the Fenton translation of the Hebrew here in Genesis one - Keith Hunt). Then He created the Earth and its inhabitants and all things therein. That the heavens are inhabited is clear from Rev.12:12; 13:6; Col.1:15-18; Dan.4:35. There are at least three heavens, and all were created and inhabited "In the beginning." The third Heaven is God's dwelling place.... It is interesting to note that astronomers have discovered planets about 150,000,000 light years from the Earth. This is about 14,690,062,800,000,000,000 miles from the Earth, or the distance light can travel in 150,000,000 years at the rate of 186,000 miles a second. Astronomers say that there may be other universes beyond this one. They also say that each star is a sun to other planets, but they are so far distant from our planetary system that they appear as small lights. Also, about 6,000,000,000 stars have been discovered and they are all suns to other planets. If this is true, then the universe is vast beyond conception. All this is no doubt true, for it is hard to conceive of God existing from all eternity as a lazy Being; not doing one thing until a few millenniums ago when He finally decided to do something, and He then made the heavens and the Earth. It is easy to conceive that God has been making things in all the eternal past. What we have revealed in God's plan for man proves that God has always been busy doing things. The Bible says that the heavens cannot be measured and the host of Heaven cannot be counted (Jer.31:37; 33:22-25). The Hebrew word for earth is 'erets,' meaning dry ground: "And God called the dry land Earth" (Gen.1:9-10), so we can read Gen. 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and dry land." In Gen.1:2 the dry land is then wet land, proving it was flooded after its original creation (Ps.104:6-9; 2 Pet.3:5-6). 'Erets' is translated 'Earth' 708 times; 'land' 1,523 times; 'ground' 102 times; 'country' 102 times; and 'countries' 53 times. Thus the heavens and the Earth were completed and inhabited, and then the Earth was flooded as in Gen.1:2 before the beginning of the six days of Gen.1:3-2:25. V. THE CREATION OF THE SPIRIT WORLD It is clear from Job 38:4-7 that the spirit-world of angels, seraphims, cherubims, and other spirit beings were created before the Earth, for the "sons of God",were present and shouting when God laid the foundations of the Earth. It is also clear from this passage that the heavens, including the sun, moon, and stars were created before the Earth for "the morning stars" sang together when God laid the foundations of the Earth. It is not stated whether or not the spirit beings were created before the heavens but if we take God's work in creating the Earth as a pattern for His work in the heavens, then it is clear that the heavens were first created and then the inhabitants of Heaven. This would be the logical order of creation - make the place before creating the inhabitants to live on the place. Since the inhabitants were a part of the creation and not part of the Creators (Col.1:15-18), they naturally would have to be created after the places were created on which they were to live. This is the way it happened on Earth in the six days of the restoration of the Earth from chaos to a second habitable state (Gen. 1:3-2:25). VI. HOW GOD CREATED AND MADE THE MATERIAL UNIVERSE Undoubtedly, God created and made the different parts of the material universe and each thing therein, using the same care and time as in the six days when He restored the planet Earth to a habitable state and made a new order of Earth creatures. In the work of the six days, it is stated that God with His hands FORMED each of the living creatures and man out of the dust of the ground (Gen.1:20-27; 2:7-25; Job 26:13; Rom.9:20; 1 Tim.2:13). It is not only clear that God created the heavens and the Earth and all things "In the beginning," or each in its own period, but it is also clear that God FORMED all things with His hands. God FORMED both light and darkness (Isa.45:7). He did not do this in the first day of Gen.1:3-5, for at that time He merely divided them. Therefore they must have been created and formed before the first day. It is also stated that God with His hands FORMED the Earth (Ps.8:3,6; 90:2; 95:5 ); the heavens (Ps.8:3; 19:1; 102:25; Isa.40:12); the planets (Ps.8:3; Isa.40:26; 45:12; 48:13; Heb. 1:10) and all things (Prov.26:10). From a study of all these Scriptures and those on the creation of all things, it is clear that by the Word of God the materials were brought into existence, and then by His hands He formed the materials into the various parts of the universe. That is, as God spoke, the materials came into existence and as fast as they materialized He used them to form all things with His hands (Ps. 8:3; 2 Pet.3:3-9; Prov.26: 10). VII. WHEN GOD CREATED AND MADE THE MATERIAL UNIVERSE In answer to this question the Bible says, "In the beginning [literally, by periods or ages] God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth," not "Six thousand years ago God created the heavens and the earth," as is generally taught. Can we say just when was the beginning? If we can, then we know more than God has revealed. If we cannot, then it stands to reason that we do not know, and therefore, should not teach that the beginning was 6,000 years ago. As far as we know it could have been six billion years as well as about 6,000 years..... In no Scripture are we told to believe that the heavens and the Earth were originally created during the six days and at the time of Adam .... Some use Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17 to prove that the heavens and the Earth were created in the six days of Gen.1:3-2:25, and therefore, that they were created about 6,000 years ago. However, nothing is said of the original creation of the heavens and the Earth in these passages. In these Scriptures the Hebrew 'asah,' meaning to make out of already existing material, is used instead of the word 'bara,' to create. These verses picture the re-creation work of the six days, and not the original creation "In the beginning." 'Asah' never means to create. It is translated 'made' 659 times; 'make' 449 times; 'maketh' 59 times; 'madest' sixteen times; 'maker' thirteen times; 'making' eleven times; and 'madest' three times. When God said, "In six days the Lord made heaven and earth," He had in mind the restoration of the heaven (firmament, or clouds) and the Earth to a habitable state as it was before the destruction of Lucifer's kingdom by the flood of Gen.1:2.... VIII HOW LONG WAS GOD CREATING AND MAKING THE MATERIAL UNIVERSE? Judging from what was done in six days, it took, or rather God took, a long time to originally create or bring into existence the material and use it to form with His hands each sun, moon, star, planet, and each creature that inhabits the vast universe. God took one day to merely divide the light from the darkness on this one little planet, Earth. How much time He originally took to bring into existence all the darkness and light of the vast universe is not known, but evidently He took a longer time than a day. God took one day to divide the waters which covered the Earth and restore the firmament and one day to restore the Earth and set bounds to the seas, therefore, He naturally took a much longer period to originally bring the materials into existence and form the waters, the firmament, and the Earth with its many mountains and valleys. God took one day to complete solar regulation in connection with the restored Earth, but He evidently used a much longer period to originally bring into existence and form with His own hands the vast heavens and all the suns, moons, stars, and planets that are without number. God took two days to form the bodies of the fish, fowls, beasts, man, and woman. He naturally took a much longer period to originally create and form each inhabitant of the vast heavens and the many animals and inhabitants who originally lived on the Earth during Lucifer's kingdom, long before the chaos of Gen.1:2 and the six days of Gen.1:3-2:25. In other words, if God took six days to restore one little planet to a habitable state and form new inhabitants for the Earth, He would naturally take a much longer time to originally create and form the vast universe with all of its innumerable suns and planets along with their inhabitants. (Well that is merely Dake's deductions, for God can take as long or short a time as He wants to take. He can merely "speak" if He likes and "it is done." But as Dake did point out the Hebrew in Genesis one verse one is : "And by PERIODS" - see Fenton translation - God it would seem did choose to use "periods" - whatever they may have been - to create the entire universe. Even today science says "new" stars are being born all the time out there in the universe - Keith Hunt) IX. WHY GOD CREATED AND MADE THE MATERIAL UNIVERSE God created the material universe to be inhabited with intelligent, free moral agents, to whom He could reveal Himself, and who could enjoy all the rich blessings of life and the goodness of the Creator forever. Then too, God created plant and animal life as well as all other things necessary for sustaining life in the universe (Ps.8:3-8). In Isa.45:18 we read, "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain [Hebrew, tohu, desolate, as in Gen.1:2] he formed it TO BE INHABITED." Paul said, "All things were created by him, and FOR HIM . . . THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEMINENCE .... THAT WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Jesus Christ" (Col.1:15-18; Eph. 1:3-11; 2:7; 3:9-11). In Rev.4:11 we read, "Thou hast created all things, and FOR THY PLEASURE they are and were created." X. CREATION OF THE ORIGINAL SOCIAL SYSTEM For an unknown period, there was an original social system on this Earth ruled by Lucifer, before the time of the social system that was created in Adam's day. This may be a new idea to some, so we shall give plenty of scriptural proof in Lesson Seven. It is sufficient at this point to say that there had to be a social order on Earth, for Lucifer to have a kingdom here, as is proved in Isa.14:12-14; 45:18; Jer.4:23-26; Ezek.28:11-17. 2 Pet.3:5-7. Along with this social system there were land animals, birds, fish and other creatures created ... Gen.1:2; Ps.104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-7. It is to this original period that all fossils and remains of animals belong, as well as the geologic formations of the Earth. (In the main I would agree with Dake, but some fossils and remains of course can be from the time of Adam's creation - this is only logical - Keith Hunt). The demons also belong to this period, for they are not the souls of human beings ... (Well they became 'demons' during some period of that age, when Lucifer and one third of the angels rebelled against God's government, and made war against God in heaven, and much destruction took place in the universe and all over this earth, when the earth became covered with water - Gen.1:1-2 - and the age of the Dinosaurs came to an end - Keith Hunt). Between these original creations of God and the creations of the six days, we have revealed in Scripture: the rule of Lucifer on the Earth for an unknown period, his rebellion against God, the Earth's first sinful career, the defeat of Lucifer by God, and the overthrow of his kingdom by the first recorded flood on the Earth in Gen.1:2. Lucifer was the first ruler on the Earth and he already had his period of Earth rule and his fall by the time of Adam, for he was already a fallen creature when he came into Adam's Eden....

Two things should be noted here that have not been addressed. The first is the above is based on Dispensationalism theology, a position I also hold to. Covenant theology is another way of looking at scripture. I don't have a problem with seeing both as valid simultaneously. Some people do. Many arguments have I read stating the validity of understanding scripture under either guideline. I see both positions having merit.

The second is there is no mention of the Divine Council in the above. I have previously referenced Dr. Michael S. Heiser's book, The Unseen Realm. Psalm 82, Psalms 89, and Job are good places to start. As for Enoch, there is a newer, more accurate translation now available from scholar Dr. Ken Johnson. His translation includes a word for word translation using Qumran texts from the Dead Sea Scrolls. He points out the questionable later books of Enoch. Neither Dr. Heiser not Dr. Johnson advocate adding these books to the biblical canon.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, farouk said:

Well.....the book of Enoch is Deuterocanonical........(Apocryphal)..

From what I've read, Enoch, written before the New Testament, has a prophesy which a fundamentalist Christian like myself would date from 1948. It dates the Tribulation yet to come. An interesting date I'd say.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

there might be something, quite a bit of known writings and seem to find new ones from time to time.

Yea the world might not be able to contain them all. I'm thinking the verse isn't just on how many the world couldn't contain.

John 21:25

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

There's quite a few OT writings that did not make it into the Biblical Canon that are actually mentioned in our OT. I don't believe out salvation depends on them. But they are interesting.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

I'm thinking the flood great tribulation in that time, giants wiped out, war in heaven some angels placed in chains. rest of mankind caught in the flood except Noah. Enoch went to son of Lamech who spoke to Noah about the tribulation.

I'm with @HAZARD on this. I believe there was two different floods, Noah's being the latest.