Did God restore Israel in 1948?

[heartwashed3]

5 hours ago, Keras said:

Do you mean those who claim to be Judah's descendants, or those who are the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by their faith?  Galatians 3:26-29

Which ones do you think God will accept? 

According to Romans 11:26,

The physical descendants of Jacob (not as narrow as Judah; and not as wide as Isaac and Abraham)

According to Romans 10:9-10,

those who are children of Abraham by faith.

Edited December 29, 2022 by heartwashed3

[dad2]

1 hour ago, George said:

Study the War of Independence of 1947, the 6 day war of 1967, and the Yom Kippur War of 1973.  You will find angelic involvement over and over again!  Each war is not studied by military academies ... especially the War of Independence of 1947 because it's militarily miraculous -- because it was MORE than what meets the eye!

Says who? If God protects you it will be no secret. He protects His children, and until they get saved they are not His. The death count shows both sides lost thousands of men.

 

"ARAB-ISRAELI WAR, 1948-49: Israel lost 6,200 killed, and Arab losses were estimated at 2,000 regular soldiers killed. Thousands of Arab and Palestinian irregulars were also believed killed."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-03-08-mn-2592-story.html

 

 We should also note that tens of thousands of believers lived in the area before 1948.

 

"In the 1922 census of Palestine there were approximately 73,000 Christian Palestinians: 46% Orthodox, 40% Catholic (20% Roman Catholic, and 20% Eastern Catholic. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christians

 

"

The Christian "exodus" from the Holy Land can be traced to 1948, when more than 750,000 Palestinians were forced from their homes by the creation of the State of Israel. With hundreds of Palestinian villages destroyed and at least half of the indigenous population displaced to refugee camps internally or in neighboring countries, Christians and Muslims -- whose roots in the Holy Land stretched back for centuries -- suffered the same fate. That Israel bore responsibility for this Palestinian nakba, or "catastrophe," was affirmed by the Israeli historian Benny Morris in a 1986 paper for the journal Middle Eastern Studies. In fact, Morris traces the Palestinian exodus to before 1948, when Jewish terrorist groups systematically harassed and expelled tens of thousands of indigenous Arabs. Morris cites a June 30, 1948 "military intelligence" report from the Haganah, which boasted that "[a]t least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." Morris continues:

"To this figure, the report's compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which 'directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration'. A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to 'fears' and 'a crisis of confidence' affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases..."

Conveniently, the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics offers no breakdown of religious groups for 1948, the year Israel was created. Still, a recent report shows that some Palestinian population centers saw their Christian population virtually gutted; Haifa, for example, lost 85 percent of its Christian residents in 1948. And in any case, no historian, Israeli or otherwise, disputes that Zionist forces unleashed equal brutality on all of Palestine's Arabs. As such, the modern Christian exodus from the Holy Land began with the creation of the State of Israel."

https://imeu.org/article/christians-in-the-holy-land-under-israeli-siege

 

So, would you call the treatment of God's people there a miracle as well?

 

 

1 hour ago, George said:

The prophecy talks about the national restoration -- bones and flesh without the SPIRIT ... is that what is happening today? 

No. That happens after Jesus returns. All Israel only gets saved when they get saved. It is not some process. As soon as they believe in Jesus they are saved! Only then will God restore the nation.

1 hour ago, George said:

And ... in the future God will pour out His Spirit!

Why is God protecting Israel ... TO KEEP HIS PROMISES!  If Israel were wiped off ... and soon it will be said ... Oh these prophecies are not true ... why?  Because the Bible actually says it ... it is a TEST for you!

You could say that about many countries. Why is God protecting Russia, The USA, Germany...etc? Who says He is? When He steps in it will be clear.

1 hour ago, George said:

Watch carefully ...

Jer 16:14  “Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when it shall no longer be said, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,’ 

Jer 16:15  but ‘As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he had driven them.’ For I will bring them back to their own land that I gave to their fathers. 

Jer 16:16  “Behold, I am sending for many fishers, declares the LORD, and they shall catch them. And afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the clefts of the rocks. 

We are witnessing the restoration of Israel back to the land ... and we are entering the hunter stage ... the rise of antisemitism!

 

No. We are seeing people move as they choose. When GOD restores them, it will be real. When He protects them it will be real.

 

 

1 hour ago, George said:

NOW JUDGMENT ... NOT to DESTROY but to REDEEM ISRAEL and to TEST the nations ... Watch ...

Jer 16:17  For my eyes are on all their ways. They are not hidden from me, nor is their iniquity concealed from my eyes. 

Jer 16:18  But first I will doubly repay their iniquity and their sin, because they have polluted my land with the carcasses of their detestable idols, and have filled my inheritance with their abominations.”

Judgment will take place ... why?  Because of the sin in the land!  BUT THEY MUST BE FIRST BACK IN THE LAND ... TO POLLUTE THE LAND!!!

Jer 16:19  O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: “Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit. 

The TEST to the nations ... The nations will declare that God's word is NOT TRUE ... the promises aren't true concerning Israel ... will be the battlecry!  But this is a TEST!  Then ... God shows HImself above every god ...when it appears all HOPE IS LOST!  It has to look as if Israel is going to the grave ... read Ezekiel 37 closely!

Jer 16:20  Can man make for himself gods? Such are not gods!” 

Jer 16:21  “Therefore, behold, I will make them know, this once I will make them know my power and my might, and they shall know that my name is the LORD.” 

Jer 16 according to a commentary I just read refers to the captivity.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/bbc/jeremiah-16.html#verse-1

 

Why would you be trying to make it sound as if it is prophesy about the tribulation and end time??

 

1 hour ago, George said:

The restoration of Israel ... takes place ... while the nations are actually being judged on how they treated the Jewish nation!

Joe 3:1  “For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, 

You have to have the restoration of Judah and Jerusalem ... 

Joe 3:2  I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land,

Why because of the Israel question ... READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN till you get it!  ON BEHALF of ISRAEL and ON BEHALF of the Covenant land ...

Joe 3:12  Let the nations stir themselves up and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. 

Joe 3:13  Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Go in, tread, for the winepress is full. The vats overflow, for their evil is great. 

Joe 3:14  Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 

Joe 3:15  The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. 

Joe 3:16  The LORD roars from Zion, and utters his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth quake. But the LORD is a refuge to his people, a stronghold to the people of Israel. 

The prophecies are clear ... God is USING Israel these days to TEST the world!  Most people are FAILING the TEST because they FAIL to simply READ the WORD!  It's an OPEN BOOK TEST!

Joel 3 is clearly talking about the end. Not 1948.

Here is the setting and time involved.

 

Joel 2:30

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Joel 2:32

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

 

That is the days the prophesy is in!  Look at the next verse

Joel 3:1

 

For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem

 

There were no wonders in the heavens in 1948, nor the sun going dark! Etc.

 

Again, you are batting ZERO.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 12/26/2022 at 1:17 PM, dad2 said:

Many preachers suggest that He did, and that prophesy about God bringing them back to that land was fulfilled. The desert will blossom like a rose etc. Every place in Scripture that I have seen so far is talking about after Jesus returns and all (the remnant) Israel is saved. Not 1948

 Yes Israel needs to be there for endtime prophesies to be fulfilled but that does not mean God restored them and brought them there. It means He knew they would be there. Perhaps someone who shares the ideas of preachers like Jack Hibbs, Amir Tsarfati, Jan Markell etc etc could make a case.

Shalom, dad2.

I've gone back to the beginning of this topic because there are FUNDAMENTAL things that have been missed in this conversation.

If one does not believe that God had a hand in Israel's return, then he or she doesn't know history! If one would like to learn history in an enjoyable way, one should read Bodie Thoene's book series, The Zion Chronicles. Whether one reads this series or not, a deep probe into the history of this fledgling country will reveal the AMAZING MIRACLES of the LIVING GOD!

Anyone who has investigated the history of the birth of the modern nation of Israel will come away with a RENEWED AWE of God's Work behind the scene! There's absolutely NO WAY that Israel should have survived to become a nation again! And yet, they did! And, more than just survive, they THRIVED!

Yes, in no uncertain terms, GOD RESTORED ISRAEL IN 1948! There can be no other SANE conclusion! To deny God's hand in it is to deny God HIMSELF!

Now, is this the end of God's prophecy? Is that the completeness of God's work? Absolutely not! It was only the beginning! Through that work, Israel was put back in the Land they were promised to possess.

But, look at the stages that have happened since then! The six-day war in 1967 is AWESOME! If one thinks that God wasn't in that war, then he or she doesn't know the POWER of God! READ ABOUT IT!

The restoration of the Hebrew language is also amazing! In the late 19th and early 20th century, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda encouraged the revival of the language for common communication in Israel. In 1881 Ben-Yehuda joined the First Aliyah and immigrated to Palestine, then ruled by the Ottoman Empire, and settled in Jerusalem.

Those who deny that God was behind all this KNOW NOTHING OF HISTORY!

[dad2]

 

    Shalom, dad2.

    I've gone back to the beginning of this topic because there are FUNDAMENTAL things that have been missed in this conversation.

    If one does not believe that God had a hand in Israel's return, then he or she doesn't know history!

 

 

Let's see your support for that

 

  

If one would like to learn history in an enjoyable way, one should read Bodie Thoene's book series, The Zion Chronicles. Whether one reads this series or not, a deep probe into the history of this fledgling country will reveal the AMAZING MIRACLES of the LIVING GOD!]/quote]

Miracles happen all over with those who believe in Jesus. Israel was not famous for believing in Jesus in 1948...or today. Why would we think they had a monopoly on miracles? There  were more Christians sent from the land than Christians on the side of Israel in the fighting. Obviously. You seem to be suggesting that Jesus is irrelevant?

 

Anyone who has investigated the history of the birth of the modern nation of Israel will come away with a RENEWED AWE of God's Work behind the scene! There's absolutely NO WAY that Israel should have survived to become a nation again! And yet, they did! And, more than just survive, they THRIVED!

Says you. I bet He worked in the lives of the actual believers that were booted from that land as well. When God restores Israel it will be when they all are believers in Jesus. Not before. He allowed them to gather themselves in that place for judgment to come. That is a far cry from tenderly gathering His people as He will do after they get saved. There will be no confusion or maybes.

 

Yes, in no uncertain terms, GOD RESTORED ISRAEL IN 1948! There can be no other SANE conclusion! To deny God's hand in it is to deny God HIMSELF!

Did He get the terrorists there to do their thing then? Did He want people treated as they were in that area? I did not see God destroy all their enemies. They are surrounded! They will in fact be attacked by them one day. Why would anyone conclude God gathered them when clearly He only does that after they accept Jesus? What God are you talking about?

 

    Now, is this the end of God's prophecy? Is that the completeness of God's work? Absolutely not! It was only the beginning! Through that work, Israel was put back in the Land they were promised to possess.

Says who? They came there themselves. When He restores them they actually will be restored. When He protects them they really will be protected! etc

 

    But, look at the stages that have happened since then! The six-day war in 1967 is AWESOME! If one thinks that God wasn't in that war, then he or she doesn't know the POWER of God! READ ABOUT IT!

Another of man's hellish wars. Seriously? God makes wars to end until the end of the world. When God destroys the wicked and the enemies of saved Israel, He will need no army of man!

 

  

    The restoration of the Hebrew language is also amazing! In the late 19th and early 20th century, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda encouraged the revival of the language for common communication in Israel. In 1881 Ben-Yehuda joined the First Aliyah and immigrated to Palestine, then ruled by the Ottoman Empire, and settled in Jerusalem.

    Those who deny that God was behind all this KNOW NOTHING OF HISTORY!

Those who claim God gathered them already know nothing of God. Unless you provide real Scriptural support, you have no case at all.

Edited December 29, 2022 by dad2

[Keras]

32 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, in no uncertain terms, GOD RESTORED ISRAEL IN 1948! There can be no other SANE conclusion! To deny God's hand in it is to deny God HIMSELF!

Yes, God did help the Israelis to win their wars.  

BUT; for His own purposes.  One; to fulfil Jesus Prophecy of the fig tree budding; Matthew 24:32-33   Secondly; to gather the nations for Judgment. Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 9:25-26

The holy Land will be cleared and cleansed, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, and only the faithful Christian peoples will inhabit it. Ezekiel 20:34-38

[dad2]

50 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

 

    Shalom, dad2.

    I've gone back to the beginning of this topic because there are FUNDAMENTAL things that have been missed in this conversation.

    If one does not believe that God had a hand in Israel's return, then he or she doesn't know history!

Let's see your support for that

 

  

If one would like to learn history in an enjoyable way, one should read Bodie Thoene's book series, The Zion Chronicles. Whether one reads this series or not, a deep probe into the history of this fledgling country will reveal the AMAZING MIRACLES of the LIVING GOD!]/quote]

Miracles happen all over with those who believe in Jesus. Israel was not famous for believing in Jesus in 1948...or today. Why would we think they had a monopoly on miracles? There  were more Christians sent from the land than Christians on the side of Israel in the fighting. Obviously. You seem to be suggesting that Jesus is irrelevant?

 

Anyone who has investigated the history of the birth of the modern nation of Israel will come away with a RENEWED AWE of God's Work behind the scene! There's absolutely NO WAY that Israel should have survived to become a nation again! And yet, they did! And, more than just survive, they THRIVED!

Says you. I bet He worked in the lives of the actual believers that were booted from that land as well. When God restores Israel it will be when they all are believers in Jesus. Not before. He allowed them to gather themselves in that place for judgment to come. That is a far cry from tenderly gathering His people as He will do after they get saved. There will be no confusion or maybes.

 

Yes, in no uncertain terms, GOD RESTORED ISRAEL IN 1948! There can be no other SANE conclusion! To deny God's hand in it is to deny God HIMSELF!

Did He get the terrorists there to do their thing then? Did He want people treated as they were in that area? I did not see God destroy all their enemies. They are surrounded! They will in fact be attacked by them one day. Why would anyone conclude God gathered them when clearly He only does that after they accept Jesus? What God are you talking about?

 

    Now, is this the end of God's prophecy? Is that the completeness of God's work? Absolutely not! It was only the beginning! Through that work, Israel was put back in the Land they were promised to possess.

Says who? They came there themselves. When He restores them they actually will be restored. When He protects them they really will be protected! etc

 

    But, look at the stages that have happened since then! The six-day war in 1967 is AWESOME! If one thinks that God wasn't in that war, then he or she doesn't know the POWER of God! READ ABOUT IT!

Another of man's hellish wars. Seriously? God makes wars to end until the end of the world. When God destroys the wicked and the enemies of saved Israel, He will need no army of man!

 

  

    The restoration of the Hebrew language is also amazing! In the late 19th and early 20th century, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda encouraged the revival of the language for common communication in Israel. In 1881 Ben-Yehuda joined the First Aliyah and immigrated to Palestine, then ruled by the Ottoman Empire, and settled in Jerusalem.

    Those who deny that God was behind all this KNOW NOTHING OF HISTORY!

Those who claim God gathered them already know nothing of God. Unless you provide real Scriptural support, you have no case at all.

 

[dad2]

52 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Quote

 

Shalom, dad2.

I've gone back to the beginning of this topic because there are FUNDAMENTAL things that have been missed in this conversation.

If one does not believe that God had a hand in Israel's return, then he or she doesn't know history! If one would like to learn history in an enjoyable way, one should read Bodie Thoene's book series, The Zion Chronicles. Whether one reads this series or not, a deep probe into the history of this fledgling country will reveal the AMAZING MIRACLES of the LIVING GOD!

Anyone who has investigated the history of the birth of the modern nation of Israel will come away with a RENEWED AWE of God's Work behind the scene! There's absolutely NO WAY that Israel should have survived to become a nation again! And yet, they did! And, more than just survive, they THRIVED!

Yes, in no uncertain terms, GOD RESTORED ISRAEL IN 1948! There can be no other SANE conclusion! To deny God's hand in it is to deny God HIMSELF!

 

Now, is this the end of God's prophecy? Is that the completeness of God's work? Absolutely not! It was only the beginning! Through that work, Israel was put back in the Land they were promised to possess.

Says who? They came there themselves. When He restores them they actually will be restored. When He protects them they really will be protected! etc

52 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

But, look at the stages that have happened since then! The six-day war in 1967 is AWESOME! If one thinks that God wasn't in that war, then he or she doesn't know the POWER of God! READ ABOUT IT!

The restoration of the Hebrew language is also amazing! In the late 19th and early 20th century, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda encouraged the revival of the language for common communication in Israel. In 1881 Ben-Yehuda joined the First Aliyah and immigrated to Palestine, then ruled by the Ottoman Empire, and settled in Jerusalem.

Those who deny that God was behind all this KNOW NOTHING OF HISTORY!

Another of man's hellish wars. Seriously? God makes wars to end until the end of the world. When God destroys the wicked and the enemies of saved Israel, He will need no army of man!

Those who claim God gathered them already know nothing of God. Unless you provide real Scriptural support, you have no case at all.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 12/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, dad2 said:

That is after they are saved in the end.

 

No, God's Spirit (Holy Spirit) only comes into us, when we are saved right? So, it is a parallel event brother. In other words Zech. 13:8-9 happens to be the same event as Ezekiel 37:14. The 1/3 (3.5-5 million Jews (Israelis from all 12 tribes) come to Salvation via the Messiah, but they will have the Fathers name on their forehead, Rev. 7 and 14 says so. Any Jewish people who come to Christ before the Pre Trib Rapture will go with the Church (like John in Rev. 4:1) to marry the Lamb in Heaven. All Jewish people who come to repentance after the Rapture will remain on earth to help Jesus, their Lord and Brother through King David etc. rule on this earth via the Kingdom Age. Those who die are the Gentile Martyrs during the trib. I say Gentiles because the Jewish peoples who repent are protected, the other (2/3 will perish Zech. 13:8) but I image a few Jewish converts will be Martyred also, if they fail to flee unto Judea, but overall the Martyrs should be the Gentiles who come to Christ after the pre trib Rapture. 

Catch my drift on the TIMINGS? 

On 12/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, dad2 said:

No. You are adding things and straining at nats.

 

No, I just understand the way it was written because I have spent 37 years called to decipher prophecy, the odd way the KJV is written has become fairly easy for me to understand, after years of study and prayer. The last part of Rev. 20:5 can ONLY go with Rev. 20:4, the Wicked are raised after 1000 years at the Second Resurrection, so how can they  be a part of the First Resurrection? It would do you good to remember there were no Chapter and Verses, the KJV brought us that, its good for recital and memory of scriptures, but what if they divided the word in WRONG PLACES? like Daniel 9:25-27 ? I think half of verse 26 should go with verse 25 and the other half should go with 27 like this.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be (1)seven weeks, and (2)threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall(49 years), even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off(434 years later Jesus dies for mankind)  , but not for himself:

---------------------------------

and the people (Romans/Europeans) of the prince that shall come (The Anti-Christ 2000 years later...SOON) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary(in 70 AD); and the end thereof shall be with a flood(Army swamps Jerusalem), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined(Diaspora) . 27 And he shall confirm the covenant(Agreement) with many (Not just Israel, the whole Mediterranean Sea Region) for one week(7 Years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(the 1290 happens 30 days BEFORE he becomes the Beast), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation(he will speak blasphemies and murder until Jesus returns), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The HE is pointing back to the prince to come [2000 years later] in verse 26 but it should go with verse 27 !! That is my point. 

So, 49 + 434 + 7 = 490 years. 

Rev. 20:4-6 could likewise be this: ONE PASSAGE

 Rev. 20 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished". This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Parenthesis would fit nicely here we use the () at times, but he is basically speaking about the First Resurrection, then tells what will happen to the Wicked as an aside. We have to be careful about the verses they were added by fallible men like us. (SMILE).

On 12/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, dad2 said:

You seem to suggest that the day of the Lord is one single day. You do not gather nations of the world together in one day. So, forget your attempt at using terminology to prop up your pet theories. The above verses refer to the end part of the Great Tribulation just before Christ returns.

No, I understand the DOTL is 3.5 years of Wrath that STARTS in ONE DAY, but I also see the DOTL as not only the 3.5 years of Wrath, but the 1000 year reign of Christ, it is the ONE DAY when Jesus and God start taking back Dominion from Satan, who tricked Adam and Eve out of the Dominion God gave them over this earth.

The E.U. is many nations not one nation, IMHO, the two Americas get hit by the Asteroid Apophis and are no longer sustainable powers at all, the 1/3 that burns etc. IMHO, is the DESTINATION of the Apophis Asteroid. North & South America have 1/3 of the worlds Landmass basically look it up. The Pacific Ocean has 1/3 of all the waters on the face of the earth, look it up, I did via a hunch, it gave me chills. Why would God/Jesus burn up the Old World when Jesus is going to rule from Jerusalem, NOW we know why they are called the Kings of the East (SMILE) everything in the West is pretty much destroyed. So, after the Gog and Magog war wipes out Russia, Turkey and Iran and the USA loses its Christian base AND gets hit by Apophis, the E.U. Anti-Christ will have no road blocks left, I think China will fall via the soon to come Economic Collapse. 

No, no, no, notice Zech. 14:3 its says THEN.......Shall the Lord go Forth.  Now lets look at Matt. 24:29 and 30 it has the exact same phraseology, AND THEN..........WATCH.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light(The 1260 Asteroid Event {Trump #2}, CAUSES the Sun and Moons light to DIM Immediately after it hits {Trump #4} Go read it), and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So, the DOTL hits (Rev. 8, Trumps 1-4, then Woes 1, 2 and 3 and THEN 1260 days LATER Jesus shows up.) Put it together man. I am orchestrating a symphony here, play your pipes in tune man, lets roll. (SMILE). If you only understood how much of the End Times I actually understand, for 30 years, even called unto Prophecy it was fuzzy, now its very clear unto me, God has blessed me with a gift. We all have our gifts brother. 

On 12/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, dad2 said:

Bingo, when He returns. That is not 31/2 years later. Why did you insert that?

 

Of course it is, Zech. 14:1 states the DOTL has arrived, that happens in Rev. 8 via an Asteroid Impact. Look, if you had to write prophecy for the year 4000, you could not give every detailed minutia needed, you would wind up with chapters as long as the great Moby Dick book. You would also need to mish mash in order to tie events together. For instance, read Zechariah 13 very carefully. The whole chapter is about the End Times and Israel repenting, EXCEPT verses 6-7 which refer unto Jesus' hands being wounded and if you SMITE the Shepard the flock will be scattered, does that have anything to do with the very End Times? No, but now what a Prophecy we have !! We see WHO brings the Fountain that Cleanses Israel in verse 1, and Zechariah wrote this long before both Jesus' death AND the End Time Repentance of Israel thus having both in one chapter is a HUGE BOOST to the accuracy of the prophecy !! That is why those two verses were thrown in there by God !! You see how that is 2000 years apart? Its the same thing, except those two verses are only 1260 days apart in Zech. 14:2 and 3 and in Matt. 24:29 and 30.

Another HUGE CLUE that if you think this through will put you onto the truth here, Jesus does not lose any end time war my friend, in Zech. 14:1-2 Israel gets SACKED and RAVAGED, they LOSE..........So verse three says THEN (1260 days later) Jesus our Lord shows up to take care of business. So, it can not be the SAME EVENT sir !! BOOM !!

On 12/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, dad2 said:

The whole tribulation is God's wrath. The phase or part of that wrath in which the remnant are saved is right around the time at the end when Jesus returns.

Your lame attempt to relegate the 144000 Jewish witnesses to 'a code' is laughable.

No it is not, the Wrath was not for Israel per se or all 490 years would have been Wrath, so why do you say the WHOLE WEEK has to be Wrath? All time on this earth is tribulation, Jesus told us that in  John 16:33, so the Church Age was Great Tribulation, that is why those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 came out of Great Tribulation, they are the Church Age Saints, and can be no other. The Martyrs under the 5th Seal (mostly Gentiles) have to WAIT until the Beasts 42 month rule is over before they can get their vengeance, Jesus says so, wait a little season until ALL your brothers have been killed in like manner (by the Beasts 42 month rule) as you have.

And in Rev.20:4 we see those who refused the Mark of the Beast only get raised and judged AFTER Jesus' return, so yes, ALL TIME on this earth is tribulation, the Church Age AND the 70th week, but only 3.5 years are the Greatest Troubles Ever Seen, Jesus tells us that in Matt. 24:15-17, The AoD happens at the 1290, then the Jews have 30 days to flee Judea. Thus the Greatest Ever Troubles known to mankind last for 1260 days, the same amount of time Satan is cast down to earth for, and he chases the Woman (Israel) for 1260 days !!

During that time God will slay a few billion wicked people, and the Anti-Christ will kill a billion or two billion people, there will be no trouble like these troubles ever seen before or since Jesus says. Dan. 12:7 tells us it lasts for 1260 days. Dan. 12:11 tells us the False Prophet stops the Sacrifice (Jesus worship) from being worshiped in the temple AND that he places the AoD at the 1290, or 30 days before the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast at the 1260. The 1335 comes 75 days before the 1260 and 45 days before the 1290, it is the coming Two-witnesses who turn Israel back to God JUST BEFORE the coming DOTL falls on mankind. All of these numbers represent a specific number of days from SAID EVENTS, until ALL THESE WONDERS END via Jesus' Second Coming. Amen. 

By the way, NOWHERE can you find anywhere in the bible that says the 144,000 WITNESS or PREACH the Gospel like Super Preachers, it IS NOT THERE ANYWHERE, go find it, I used to believe the same thing. 

Here is what Rev. 7 (Paraphrasing) basically says, HOLD UP the four winds (Judgments) and HURT NOT the Trees, Sea or Earth until we have sealed the "144,000". (which simply means like us, they will have the Seal of Life from God in them via Faith). So, if these are super Witnesses/Preachers, why does the Revelation 8 Trumpet Judgments need to be HELD UP? Trumps 1-4 hurt what? The Trees (1/3 burn) the Seas (an Asteroid hits the Ocean) and the Earth, of course. So, why do the judgments need to be held up? So the Jews who repent (3.5-5 million = 1/3) can flee unto Judea.

Read Rev. 18:4 Come out of her (Babylon/World) my people (Israel) that you receive not of her plagues. This is the same event in Rev. 18 as Rev. 7. Just before 18:4 NOTICE in verse 2 Babylon (whole world) has become a Habitation of Devils (Satan has been cast down/Apollyon released from the pit). Then also in Rev.14:6 we are told an Angel Proclaims the Gospel unto the WHOLE WORLD (because the Church is gone of course) and Israel (the 144,000) are being protected in the Petra/Bozrah area by God himself. Now GO SEARCH Rev. 7 and 14 and find anywhere that it says the 144,000 witness or preach !!

CONTINUED...........

Edited December 30, 2022 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 12/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, dad2 said:

Says---who? Where does the bible say GOD brings them back before they repent? Israel will be there, yes. In what way does that mean God did it before they become His saved people? God knew they would form a nation in the end, yes, of course. It only after they are saved that He restores them and protects them etc.

I showed you this in Ezekiel 37, GAMES? Must we? (Movie quote, North by Northwest, I couldn't resist)

On 12/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, dad2 said:

Says...who?

Revelation 12:17

 

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

The dragon makes war in the tribulation and the ones who keep His commandments then are tribulation believers. The church/Bride has gone up to be with Him already by then.

 

We know this is the Tribulation period because it spells it out.

 

Revelation 12:14

 

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

I am going to have (YIPEE) a lot of fun proving this. Its really very easy to see once you add it up (HONESTLY). But for 30 years I thought it was a Jewish Remnant also, but when we ad it up, the Remnant (small piece of a larger piece) can only be the Remnant Gentile Church, which of course would also point to a Pre Trib Rapture (Main Church gone/70th week Remnant Church on earth)

So, you posted the very scriptures that PROVE this via logical deduction, BUT.........you didn't see it !! 

So, who can the Dragon/Satan not get at via his Anti-Christ army? The Woman or Israel who God is Protecting in the Petra/Bozrah area for 1260 days right? So, it thus CAN NOT be the 1/3 Jews who repent and flee can it? Because the Dragon turns from trying to get at Israel, and goes after "Her Remnant" so we are agreed the Remnant CAN NOT be the 1/3 of the Jews who repent, Satan goes after her (The 1/3 who repent) Remnant right? 

So, lets look at the 2/3 then who refuse to repent in Zech. 13:8-9, can the Remnant be them? (SMILE) No, 2/3 can not be a Remnant for starters AND to boot, since we know these 2/3 not only refuse to repent but will DIE according to Zechariah 13:8-9, thus we know these can NEVER have the Testimony of Jesus nor keep the Commandments of God (see how I break it down brother? I am not just guessing.) So...............

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman(Jews who REPENT the 1/3), and went to make war with the remnant(Remnant Body of Christ) of her seed (Jesus is HER seed), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (This CAN NOT be the 2/3 who REFUSED to repent and will perish, they are not of God).

Now watch, how I tie this in via "THE SEED".

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

You, see the Jews (1/3) who REPENT can not be touched by Satan, so he gets ANGRY and goes after (SOMEONE ELSE Bada Bing) the Remnant of her SEED and Jesus is that seed thus the Remnant is the Body of Christ or the Gentiles who repent during the 70th week. The Jews are being protected for the coming Kingdom Age, Amen. The 2/3 do not keep God's Commandments, or else they would not perish, and they therefore of course do not have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. See how the Remnant can only be the Remnant Church brother? No one even tries to really debate me on this, they just (most) lower their head and plow on knowing I am 100% correct on this. But it proves a Pre Trib Wrath and they are too invested in being against the Pre Trib Rapture.

I won't gloat but.................SAYS ME IS WHO !!!

On 12/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, dad2 said:

Having fun making stuff up? Says who? What verse says God only protects 1/3?

 

No, try reading Dan. 12, if the Angels question to Jesus (Man in Linen) is answered by "it will be 1260 days until ALL OF THESE WONDERS (Dan. 11:3-45) END" via the 2nd Coming, then Daniel asks the exact same question in verse 8, WHAT WILL BE THE END OF THESE THINGS (Dan. 11:36-45) so the Symmetry has to be the exact same thing. Remember, no person or even title was given by Jesus in verse 7 as to who would rule over Israel for 1260 days until all these wonders ended (and we NOW KNOW Jesus' Second Coming is what ends the Anti-Christs rule). But via much study, we have understood the Anti-Christ is the man who conquers Israel in the middle of the week and rules for 1260 days.

So, why is it a surprise that the 1290 and 1335 events were also not explained unto Daniel or anyone, we have to DIG OUT who these events are about, I did !! Likewise the 1290 is 1290 days BEFORE ALL THESE WONDERS END via the 2nd Coming and the 1335 is 1335 days before ALL THESE WONDERS END via the 2nd Coming also. My exegesis on Dan. 11 and 12 led me to understand who they are, and I can prove it via the TIMELINES !!!

The Two-witnesses are the 1335 Blessing the 1290 is the False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest gone rogue like Jason under Antiochus Epiphanes). The Anti-Christ only rules for 1260 days as the Beast so how is he the 1290? He is not. I can explain in much greater and much fuller detail if needed. Just because you do not understand something doesn't mean its made up brother. 

AND Zechariah 13:8-9 says the 1/3 of the Jews repent, so ONLY those who repent will heed God's warning to Flee Judea at the 1290, this only 1/3 will be protected in the Petra area, its pretty basic stuff.

On 12/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, dad2 said:

False. The time is clear in Eze 37

 

Ezekiel 37:23

 

Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

 

They NOW defile themselves big time. They have transgressions etc. They are NOT cleansed at all now. That has diddly squat to do with 1948.

Yes, but you miss the JUMP IN TIME again. Think now, if it was a Prophecy about TWO STICKS that Prophecy had to start with Two Kingdoms becoming one, and even though Ezekiel was born after the Northern Kingdoms had been toted off, God was explaining through this Two Sticks Prophecy what he was going to eventually do in full. Thus the TWO STICKS has to be referencing the former two kingdoms, and thus from verse 16-19 God is speaking about what He was going to do with Judah and Ephraim AND the other tribes (SEED from the other 10 tribes still in Judea/Jerusalem). So, in essence Ezekiel is telling us here that all the SEED from the tribes still living in Judah will become ONE with Judah over the coming many, many years and will all eventually become known as Jews (Judeans). And that is exactly what happened, then in verse 21 we get a JUMP IN TIME again !! To the very End Time.  

Ezek. 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

JUMP......... WE TIME TRAVEL ahead 2000 plus years. BOOM !!

Ezek. 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Prophecy wonks are supposed to see these things brother !! So, we are told the WHOLE PROGRESS all the way to the very End Times where Jesus will rule during the Kingdom Age for 1000 years !! You miss the PROGRESSION of the Prophecy every time. Prophets don't STOP and write a whole nother chapter or passage about the very end time, thy had no idea who long it would take the nd time to come, God gave these prophesies and tied them all together like this on purpose.

On 12/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, dad2 said:

Not all Israel is Israel actually. Not all Jews we are told are Jews, but those that are Jews inwardly. The nation called Israel will be mostly killed and only a remnant will remain alive that will get saved. That is all Israel at the time! The smaller number that are left! So yes of course their salvation will be based on faith in Jesus.

We know 1/3 will be saved, that is a far larger percentage than Gentiles, there are 8 billion people on this earth, 2 billion are "Christians" but Jesus said only 5 of the 10 brides will make the wedding call, so out of 8 billion it seems like maybe 1 billion Christians will make the Pre Trib Rapture. 1 out of 8 is far less than 1 out of every 3 my friend. Israel sinned, but God used Israel as an example to us of how we must live by Faith Alone, never doubt, NOW in the end times God is using us the Church to set an example for Israel of how to live by Faith Alone. We work hand in hand in reality, Israel gave us the Messiah who died for the world, we the Gentile Church with some Messianic Jews have spread the Gospel world wide, saving millions and billions of souls, now as the end times come, the Israeli people can look at our Christian testimonies of what should be coming down the road and thus as they see it all come to pass as we proclaimed it would via all of the prophesies we interpreted, they will be like, WOW all of this stuff they were saying came true, Jesus must be the real Messiah. Then WOMP, the Two-witnesses show up at the 1335, Elijah and Moses, and Israel REPENTS, Amen, Glory to God. Thank you Lord that you gave us a Messiah through your wonderful chosen people Israel, else we would all still be lost our sins. 

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM. We are about there my friends, we are in the very end now. God chose us for a time such as this for a reason, lets go wreck havoc on Demons galore, we have that power !! Lets Roll. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Revelation Man

[dad2]

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, God's Spirit (Holy Spirit) only comes into us, when we are saved right? So, it is a parallel event brother. In other words Zech. 13:8-9 happens to be the same event as Ezekiel 37:14. The 1/3 (3.5-5 million Jews (Israelis from all 12 tribes) come to Salvation via the Messiah, but they will have the Fathers name on their forehead, Rev. 7 and 14 says so. Any Jewish people who come to Christ before the Pre Trib Rapture will go with the Church (like John in Rev. 4:1) to marry the Lamb in Heaven. All Jewish people who come to repentance after the Rapture will remain on earth to help Jesus, their Lord and Brother through King David etc. rule on this earth via the Kingdom Age. Those who die are the Gentile Martyrs during the trib. I say Gentiles because the Jewish peoples who repent are protected, the other (2/3 will perish Zech. 13:8) but I image a few Jewish converts will be Martyred also, if they fail to flee unto Judea, but overall the Martyrs should be the Gentiles who come to Christ after the pre trib Rapture. 

Catch my drift on the TIMINGS? 

On the point that Zec 13 and Eze 37 are the same event, it seems to me that is the case also. After they are saved. That then is the very end of the Tribulation. So is that what you are saying also?

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 The last part of Rev. 20:5 can ONLY go with Rev. 20:4, the Wicked are raised after 1000 years at the Second Resurrection, so how can they  be a part of the First Resurrection? It would do you good to remember there were no Chapter and Verses, the KJV brought us that, its good for recital and memory of scriptures, but what if they divided the word in WRONG PLACES? like Daniel 9:25-27 ? I think half of verse 26 should go with verse 25 and the other half should go with 27 like this.

So unless we rearrange verses, your timing is off? I am not sure about the term first resurrection. I don't want to get hung up on it. Yes the wicked are raised after the 1000 years. Before that time Jesus was raised first. Later the Bride was raptured. Later still the trib saints are raptured. Later still the millennial saints are raptured! Therefore any event after the 1000 years could not be talking about any of this. So who is left dead at this time? There are the wicked of all ages. But there are apparently also some believers. Why, because the great white throne judgment in the end we see that only those who were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. So that means some were and some were not damned.

 

OK looking at the verses you mentioned about the first resurrection we see this

^{Rev 20:4} And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

⁵ But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

The timing here is before the 1000 years since they reign for the 1000 years. Specifically those who were martyrs from the Tribulation. Maybe even specifically those who were beheaded in that time. Perhaps as an honor they might raise first? In a similar way the dead in Christ at the Rapture before this were raised first. So could we simply say that this seems to refer to the resurrection event when Jesus returns with us and points out the folks who were first raised in that event? If so, all the rest of the believers might also be raised here a moment later?! But the martyrs who are part of this 'first resurrection' are specially honored or blessed.

If this is correct then it is simple and nothing conflicts at all. You are welcome to suggest alternatives.

 

 

Because there is so much to think about here, I'll look at the rest of your post later