Daniel 9:24-27: When?

[Uriah]

On 3/5/2023 at 10:32 AM, Diaste said:

So idk for sure, but this part always seemed to me to wax poetic.

That's interesting, looking at it that way actually could help. Alternating parallels! And there is at least one (CSB) translation that renders it, "abomination of desolation. Not to mention, it is the wording used by Jesus.

[Retrobyter]

On 2/28/2023 at 2:23 PM, WilliamL said:

That is how it is written in standard English Bibles, but that is not how it is written in the Hebrew. The English translators just put their own spin on the verse, likely because their own eschatology influenced their reading of the text.

In truth, the Hebrew text reads "a nagyd/commander/leader, the one coming in..." The latter phrase is a stand-alone participial phrase:

…וְהָעִיר/and the city וְהַקֹּדֶשׁ/and the sanctuary/holy place יַשְׁחִית/he shall cause to ruin/destroy [Hiphil Imperfect 3ms] עַם/people נָגִיד/of a leader/commander הַבָּא/the one coming in [Qal Active Participle ms with ה prefix]…

“…and people of a leader/commander, the one coming in, he shall cause to destroy the city and the sanctuary.” …

Comment: This passage is tricky, and translations generally over-simplify it. One key is to correctly interpret the verb participle בָּא. Participles can be of three types, which must be determined by the context:

1) Attributive: a verb used as an adjective to modify a noun. This is how הַבָּא is most commonly interpreted: “the coming leader/prince.” However, Hebrew grammar requires that an attributive participle must match the noun it modifies – in this potential case, נָגִיד/leader – with both participle and noun having, or both not having, the definite article ה/“the.” That is not the case here: בָּא has a ה, but נָגִיד does not. So this cannot be an attributive participle.

2) Predicative: used as a verb. These participles never take the definite article, so הַבָּא cannot be a predicative participle.

3) Substantive: used as a noun: “one doing” something. That is the case here: this is a participle used as a stand-alone phrase, “the one coming in.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1592-daniel-924-27-examined-part-4-verse-26/

 

Shalom, WilliamL.

That may SOUND good to you, but it only reveals that you know NOTHING about the Hebrew grammar! Ever hear of a noun construct state?

The noun construct state is the combining of two nouns placed back to back in which the FIRST noun can be a part of the subject or direct object of the sentence. The SECOND noun is there as a MODIFIER, describing WHICH first noun we're talking about. "Ben David" is one such example. The words in Hebrew are translated into English as "son of-David," and "BEN" ("SON") can be used as the subject in the sentence. However, in this case, "David" cannot!

In Daniel 9:26, we have the noun construct of "עַ֣ם נָגִ֤יד," "`am naagiyd," which is translated as "[the]-people of-[the]-prince." "People" ("`am") can be used as the subject of the sentence in this verse, and is in fact so used for the clause in which it exists, for in that clause we have the words,

"וְהָעִ֨יר וְהַקֹּ֜דֶשׁ יַ֠שְׁחִית עַ֣ם נָגִ֤יד הַבָּא֙," which means "and-the-city and-the-sanctuary shall-destroy [the]-PEOPLE of-[the] prince the-comer." The "people" is the subject of the clause, and the verb of the clause is "יַ֠שְׁחִית," "yashchiyt," meaning "shall destroy." While the prince is the one who comes, it's not about him in this clause! It's the PEOPLE who do the destroying!

No, the "naagiyd" can do NONE of the three activities in verse 27! It's the "maashiyach" in verse 26 who must perform these activities! The "Messiah!"

[Retrobyter]

On 3/4/2023 at 2:00 PM, Selah7 said:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

- Matthew 24:15 (KJV)

Now I’ll add my understanding.  This reference to Daniel the prophet, if you think about it, makes the book of Daniel part of the New Testament. This reference in Matthew is directed to Daniel 9:27.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

- Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

So what is the "abomination"?  The abomination is when Satan sets himself up in Jerusalem and declares that he is God—and the world believes it!

Shalom, Selah7.

This is a very COMMON MISTAKE about Daniel 9! First, there are several mistakes being made.

First, Daniel is not considered a "prophet" by the children of Israel. Instead, he is the RECIPIENT of prophetic information! His book is grouped with the "Writings" and not with the "Prophets."

Second, Gavri'eel ("Gabriel") tells him this information in Daniel 9:24-27.

Third, the "abomination of desolation" is NOT from this chapter! It's from chapter 11!

Fourth, the words in Daniel 9:27 are, "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." The Hebrew words of this phrase are ...
"וְעַ֨ל כְּנַ֤ף שִׁקּוּצִים֙ מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם וְעַד־כָּלָה֙,"
this is transliterated as ...
"v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym mshomeem v`ad-kaalaah,"
which is translated word-for-word as ...
"and-upon a-spread-out-wing of-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and/even-until - a-consummation." 

On 3/4/2023 at 2:00 PM, Selah7 said:

 The "desolation" is actually an incorrect translation into the English language.  It should read "desolator.”  Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ.  The word "desolation" is a condition, the action of desolating.  In the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator." This is not a condition.  The desolator is an entity, a person. It is through this individual (Satan) that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator (Satan) that shall cause everyone, except for the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived. 

Nope. This is wrong. First, who do you think the "he" is to whom Gavri'eel is referring? He was NOT talking about the "Antichrist," the "Beast," or "Satan." The "he" in verse 27 always refers to "maashiyach" of verse 26, the "Messiah!"

Second, the word "shomeem" is NOT the "desolator"; it is a reference to the RECIPIENT of the desolation, the ones left desolate, the desolated! And, "desolate" means "empty, barren."

On 3/4/2023 at 2:00 PM, Selah7 said:

What is the Holy place?  It is the place that the temple sits.  Not only that, it is these buildings of the temple that the disciples of Jesus were questioning Jesus about—when they asked Him what it would be like at His second advent.  This is where the desolation (the desolator, Satan, the Antichrist) will stop the sacrifices, speak blasphemies, stating he is God.

Will the world be deceived?  Yes—except for the Elect—for the AC will have supernatural powers, and he will use them to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace (remember, the Antichrist comes in peaceably). 

Yes, the Holy place was the Temple, but it was the Messiah who would be the One to confirm or enforce a covenant with many! HE was the One who accepted His path by submitting to being baptized and anointed by God's Holy Spirit. It was HE who was opposed by many abominations by the Jews and the Pharisees and priests, and HE pronounced them "DESOLATE!" (Matthew 23:37-39.)

[Selah7]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

First, Daniel is not considered a "prophet" by the children of Israel. Instead, he is the RECIPIENT of prophetic information! His book is grouped with the "Writings" and not with the "Prophets."

Nope. 

Jesus gave support to Daniel's prophecies in the book s 0f Matthew and Mark:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

- Matthew 24:14-16 (KJV)

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

- Mark 13:13-14 (KJV)

That abomination is Satan claiming to be God, and the desolation is properly translated "desolator", who will be Satan, the Anti Christ.  Folks are going to be deceived because of lack of knowledge.

 

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

That abomination is Satan claiming to be God, and the desolation is properly translated "desolator", who will be Satan, the Anti Christ.  Folks are going to be deceived because of lack of knowledge.

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)

(Daniel) 11:37KJV

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV

22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV

10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

Edited March 7, 2023 by truth7t7

[Diaste]

On 3/5/2023 at 11:01 AM, WilliamL said:

You are jumping around like a shell game. The last (underlined) phrase you quote comes from the LXX, which has been injected right in the middle of the Hebrew text's translation! And not accurately translated from the Greek to boot! This is clear evidence that the translator has approached the passage with a bias.

This is why I am always stressing that "the Hebrew does not say that!" And why I referenced the scholarly article that shows the reliability of the Hebrew text of Daniel, and the unreliability of the LXX texts.

It's the idea Jesus said to look to Daniel for the information about the A of D. The text is similar enough to warrant exploration.

It sure looks like it appears in the text.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Nope. 

Jesus gave support to Daniel's prophecies in the book s 0f Matthew and Mark:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

- Matthew 24:14-16 (KJV)

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

- Mark 13:13-14 (KJV)

Shalom, Selah7.

I wasn't saying that Daniel should not be listed among the prophets; I'm just telling you the way it is today. If you look in a Jewish Tanakh (The OT Bible consisting of Torah, Navi`iym and Ketuvah, or "Instruction, Prophets, and Writings"), you won't find his book listed among the Navi`iym. Yesha`yahuw, Yirmeyahuw, Y'chezk'eel, and the Twelve are listed, but not his book. That's just the way it is.

The horrible atrocity that left them empty, was the DESTRUCTION of the Temple, and it began with the raising of the Roman legion's eagle and the Roman Empire Banner in the Temple in 66 A.D. This was the sign to "get out of town!" That emblem being on the Temple grounds was in itself a desecration of the Temple! Furthermore, if you check it out, the Jewish Christians who lived in and around Jerusalem at that time were warned again by an angel to flee, and they did when the moment was right, crossing the mountains of Israel, and finding their way to Pella, a town in the region of the Decapolis, east of the Jordan River.

A few years later in 70 A.D., after a siege that left the inhabitants weak and overcome, the Romans conquered the city, and took a large group hostage and scattered the captives across the Roman Empire. The job was finished in 139 A.D., after the Revolt of  Bar Kokhba, a self-proclaimed messiah, and very few people were left in all of Judaea, now called by the Romans "Palestine" after the "Philistines" as a further insult to the Jews!

3 hours ago, Selah7 said:

That abomination is Satan claiming to be God, and the desolation is properly translated "desolator", who will be Satan, the Anti Christ.  Folks are going to be deceived because of lack of knowledge.

Now, regarding the rest of this, while Yeeshuwa` was talking about Daniel 9, when He mentioned Daniel the prophet, He was NOT talking about the future "man of sin" or the "man against the Law." He was warning His STUDENTS what was going to happen IN THEIR LIFETIME!

Those who don't learn from history, tend to believe it must be fulfilled again.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)

(Daniel) 11:37KJV

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV

22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV

10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

Shalom, truth7t7.

Actually, the end of Daniel 11 is talking about Herod the Great and the Roman General Octavius! 

Daniel 11:36-45 (KJV)

36 "And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40 "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

See HereALittleThereALittle.net on Daniel 11.

The king of the south was Mark Antony (and his companion Cleopatra, the last monarch of Egypt) and the king of the north was Octavius, who was supported by the Roman Senate. From verses 40 to 43, we see the exploits of Octavius in the final battle that occurred in the Land of Israel before the coming of the Messiah.

Verse 44 gets back to king Herod the Great. The troubling news he received from the north and the east was that of the Magi! This is when he killed all the infants in and around Beit-Lechem ("Bethlehem" which means "House of Bread"), as possible challengers to his throne! 

Verse 45 is also about Herod, who was a great builder and built the Fortress of Antonia in Jerusalem as well as improving the Temple itself. The "seas" are the Dead Sea to the east and the Mediterranean Sea to the west. He also built the city of Sebaste on the site of ancient Samaria as well as the port city of Caesarea.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Retrobyter
to remove a duplicate word

[truth7t7]

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

Actually, the end of Daniel 11 is talking about Herod the Great and the Roman General Octavius! 

Daniel 11:36-45 (KJV)

36 "And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40 "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

See HereALittleThereALittle.net on Daniel 11.

The king of the south was Mark Antony (and his companion Cleopatra, the last monarch of Egypt) and the king of the north was Octavius, who was supported by the Roman Senate. From verses 40 to 43, we see the exploits of Octavius in the final battle that occurred in the Land of Israel before the coming of the Messiah.

Verse 44 gets back to king Herod the Great. The troubling news he received from the north and the east was that of the Magi! This is when he killed all the infants in and around Beit-Lechem ("Bethlehem" which means "House of Bread"), as possible challengers to his throne! 

Verse 45 is also about Herod, who was a great builder and built the Fortress of Antonia in Jerusalem as well as improving the Temple itself. The "seas" are the Dead Sea to the east and the Mediterranean Sea to the west. He also built the city of Sebaste on the site of ancient Samaria as well as the port city of Caesarea.

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[Retrobyter]

35 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Shalom, truth7t7.

With all of this, I agree.