Who is "Alive & Remains" in 1 Thess 4:17?

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17

Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")?  After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain."  Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")?

Good morning.

Interesting stuff. This is what I found in a quick study.

The word 'remain' from 1 Thess 4:17:

Strong's 4035. perileipomai

perileipomai: to be left remaining

Original Word: περιλείπω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: perileipomai
Phonetic Spelling: (per-ee-li'-po)
Definition: to be left remaining
Usage: I leave behind; pass: I am left behind, remain, survive."

But that isn't the verb form in the text. The verb in the text is 'περιλειπόμενοι' or "perileipomenoi".

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

If I enter that into a Greek/English translator the result is 'included'. 

So the text in English could read 'we who are alive and included...'

I always had the sense it was 'remain alive' or 'survive'. Recently the sense I get of 1 Thess 4:17 is 'still in Christ not influenced by the beast' is what is meant by 'remain' which would dovetail into survivability quite nicely. 

I think this study result is insightful as it parallels what Jesus said about 'one taken, the other left' as the one taken was 'perileipomenoi' or included, and the one left was not included. 

That phrase from Matt 24:40 would read 'one is 'received' and the other 'sent away'. 

I think this is correct in the context as 1 Thess 4:17 we read, "will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord" In that sense those 'taken', as in Matt 24:40, are taken up to meet the Lord in the air; they are received from earth by the Lord and the ones not taken are sent away.

In any case I don't see the idea that 'some were taken previously' then at a later time the 'remaining' were taken up. 

I do think the distinction is: between those who were not taken initially in the resurrection or, the survivors of the beast who followed or called on Christ or, those who are alive when Jesus comes that are to be included in the harpazo. 

It's probably a bit of a blending of ideas since any taken up in the harpazo would have survived  the beast, they would be left remaining for the harpazo[distinct from those not eligible for harpazo], and they certainly would be included in the snatching up[distinct from those not included].

Those who are 'alive and remain' then are the 'included living' when the Lord arrives. Paul had to make this distinction since it can't just be said it's 'all who are alive'. It can only be the 'we who are alive and are eligible' since not all the living would be eligible for  being taken up in the harpazo.

Does it feel like there is something a bit wrong as I present 'perileipomenoi', even as it's rendered as 'remain' by every translator?

I think we are meant to dive in like this to find the hidden gems. I think the Lord purposely affects this dynamic in a mysterious way for his own purpose. I have seen other sections of scripture where the surface reading seems strange and a study reveals the underlying truth. For example, 2 Thess 2:7 is one such phrase that makes no sense on the surface but aligns perfectly when dissected. IMO, anyway.

 

 

 

 

[TheBlade]

Something most do not address is yes they were talking asking about those that fell asleep but what did Paul say? "For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.". 

This is 1st Thes 4:14. So would seem Christ is coming in the air with those that those who have fallen asleep in Him "According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

You know words like "we" which means there 1st person and then "together" that's those who are still alive going up with the dead that just rose. So I think some confusion here is just when we get our new bodies. From what I read here Thes and in Cor we alive get changed in twinkling of a eye vs the dead in Christ who come  (spirits) with Him to well meet their body changed.  Oh I cannot find anywhere that Christ was given the authority but said "I am the resurrection and the life". The "I am" should tell you.

This is what I believe. Not here to tell you what its "really saying"

[Vine Abider]

The basic question here is are the ones "alive" the same as those who "remain" and if so it seems to mean the HS was a little redundant . . .

[truth7t7]

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

The basic question here is are the ones "alive" the same as those who "remain" and if so it seems to mean the HS was a little redundant . . .

Scripture is very clear, the resurrection, catching up, and final judgement takes place at the second coming (The End)

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[Marilyn C]

On 1/25/2023 at 1:38 AM, Vine Abider said:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17

Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")?  After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain."  Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")?

Hi VA,

As with all questions we need to read the context in line with all scripture.

`But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you should sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."                                                                                                                 (1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17)

Thus here is the sequence as I see it.

The Father will send Jesus.

`God.....may send Jesus Christ....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

When the Body of Christ is mature, the Father sends Jesus to bring His Body together, to restore rulership in the third heaven, as the holy prophets foretold.                                                     (Eph. 4: 13,  Rev. 3: 21.  Rev. 4)

The Father will send the church, which is in heaven, with Jesus.

`the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven...` (Heb. 12: 23)

`….God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.`  (1 Thess. 4: 14)

 

Those who sleep in Christ descend to the earth and receive their glorified body.

`We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment…` (1 Cor. 15: 51 & 52)

Those who are living and who abide shall not precede those asleep.

` we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.`  (1 Thess. 4: 15)

 

Together the whole Body of Christ is caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

`...caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.` (1 Thess. 4: 17)

 

The Body of Christ then escort the Lord to His own Throne in the third heaven.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

 

[Vine Abider]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi VA,

As with all questions we need to read the context in line with all scripture.

`But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you should sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."                                                                                                                 (1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17)

Thus here is the sequence as I see it.

The Father will send Jesus.

`God.....may send Jesus Christ....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

When the Body of Christ is mature, the Father sends Jesus to bring His Body together, to restore rulership in the third heaven, as the holy prophets foretold.                                                     (Eph. 4: 13,  Rev. 3: 21.  Rev. 4)

The Father will send the church, which is in heaven, with Jesus.

`the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven...` (Heb. 12: 23)

`….God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.`  (1 Thess. 4: 14)

 

Those who sleep in Christ descend to the earth and receive their glorified body.

`We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment…` (1 Cor. 15: 51 & 52)

Those who are living and who abide shall not precede those asleep.

` we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.`  (1 Thess. 4: 15)

 

Together the whole Body of Christ is caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

`...caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.` (1 Thess. 4: 17)

 

The Body of Christ then escort the Lord to His own Throne in the third heaven.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

 

So you and @truth7t7 and @AdHoc are saying the writer is stating that those who are "alive" and those who "are left" are one and the same, right?

Edited January 28, 2023 by Vine Abider

[truth7t7]

20 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

So you and @truth7t7 and @AdHoc are saying the writer is stating that those who are "alive" and those who "are left" are one and the same, right?

The scripture is showing a sequential order, the dead rise first, then all other living believers are caught up, no rocket science there 

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[Vine Abider]

Just now, truth7t7 said:

The scripture is showing a sequential order, the dead rise first, then all other living believers are caught up, no rocket science there 

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Okay . . . so again - why the apparently extra words "and remain"?  Why not just say, "Then we who are alive shall be caught up"? Why interject the extra words "and remain" (or "are left") here?

[truth7t7]

16 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Okay . . . so again - why the apparently extra words "and remain"?  Why not just say, "Then we who are alive shall be caught up"? Why interject the extra words "and remain" (or "are left") here?

It's my belief that the event takes place in the twinkling if an eye, at this time the New Heaven And Earth are revealed, and the term "Are Left" would represent the Old Testament reading of the event seen below, my take

(He that is left, everyone that is left)

Isaiah 4:3KJV

3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

Zechariah 14:16KJV

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

"And Remain" would be seen as the believers name remains, eternal in the New Heaven and Earth

Isaiah 66:22KJV

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Edited January 28, 2023 by truth7t7

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So you and @truth7t7 and @AdHoc are saying the writer is stating that those who are "alive" and those who "are left" are one and the same, right?

Yes, though when that happens we think differently.

Now I believe that if God had just written `alive` it would have given the thought of all people alive at the coming of the Lord. However, by qualifying who the `alive` are then we know precisely who they are. They are the believers who are left all around.

Gk. word `perileipomai, ` to be left all around. This is the meaning of the word used in 1 Thess. 4: 15 & 17.

Note there are many meanings for the English word `remain` in Greek - yasheb, shaar, amad, meno, etc.