Who is "Alive & Remains" in 1 Thess 4:17?

[truth7t7]

47 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

We look at the same text and see different things.  Dealing with the text of Revelation 20 there are two resurrections identified.  The second is the only one that includes those that are described as the rest of the dead.  That is what I see in Dan. 12:2.  This is the time of the Matthew 25 separation of sheep and goats.  Sheep and goats parallel everlasting life and everlasting contempt.  Jesus spoke of the resurrection of those who believe in Him and said it would be on the last day.

John 6:44 KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The last day is at the end of the thousand years.

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Why not emphasize "THY PEOPLE"? The prophecy only pertains to Israel - Daniel's people. And then you should make a comment why it s "MANY" in verse 2. Should it not be "ALL"?

Daniel 12:1-2 covers those found in the book of life, same book and resurrection seen in Revelation 20:11-15

Daniel 12:2 & John 5:28-29 are parallel readings of the same event in the last day resurrection, "Many" isn't excluded from nor does it cancel "All"

(Same Event, Last Day Resurrection)

Daniel 12:2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Edited January 30, 2023 by truth7t7

[seeking the lost]

21 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

The two resurrections mentioned in Revelation 20 are different than you describe.  The first resurrection is very specific only for those who have been beheaded.  Revelation 20: 4, I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  There are many that are not included in this resurrection and are described as the rest of the dead.  The rest of the dead includes many of "the dead in Christ."

Those who believe in Jesus are raised on the last day as Jesus says.  The last day is the day after which there are no other days.  That is the day of judgment.  That is the day that all stand before the throne and are judged.  This is the time that the books are opened and separation happens.  Sheep to the right goats to the left.

[truth7t7]

40 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

The two resurrections mentioned in Revelation 20 are different than you describe.  The first resurrection is very specific only for those who have been beheaded.  Revelation 20: 4, I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  There are many that are not included in this resurrection and are described as the rest of the dead.  The rest of the dead includes many of "the dead in Christ."

Those who believe in Jesus are raised on the last day as Jesus says.  The last day is the day after which there are no other days.  That is the day of judgment.  That is the day that all stand before the throne and are judged.  This is the time that the books are opened and separation happens.  Sheep to the right goats to the left.

I Disagree

As was clearly shown, there is one future time that "All" will be resurrected, this takes place at the second coming on the last day (The End)

Jesus Is The Lord

[Diaste]

On 1/30/2023 at 8:42 AM, Vine Abider said:

As @AdHoc conveyed - there are conditional promises made all over the New Testament concerning how believers run the race.  Some will run well and others not. Some fruit will ripen and mature more quickly than others.  Some will fight as if "beating the air" with little result.  Some believers works will be burned up, yet they "will be saved, yet as through fire."

Many believers clearly (including many on this forum) see that we will be accountable for the things done in this body after we are saved, that is, will our works be tested as "gold, silver and precious stone" at the Bema of Christ?

However, not so many see that there are also conditions given regarding an early first-fruit rapture, which is taken up before the rest (remaining) general harvest.

Hmm...I didn't see the pretrib doctrine hidden in this OP before. 

Interesting....

[Diaste]

On 1/30/2023 at 2:23 PM, AdHoc said:

Why not emphasize "THY PEOPLE"? The prophecy only pertains to Israel - Daniel's people. And then you should make a comment why it s "MANY" in verse 2. Should it not be "ALL"?

Thy people is probably 'of the faith in belief' and not ethnicity. 'Many' here is poetic as the word connotes great, vast, huge, etc., not a subset. 

 

[FreeGrace]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:08 AM, Vine Abider said:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17

Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")?  After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain."  Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")?

The words "and remains" identifies these living believers as survivors of the Great Tribulation.  When Jesus comes back, there will be saved survivors of the GT.  And those "dead in Christ" will be given their glorified bodies before those who are alive and remain.  Both the dead and living will be given bodies that will be just like the Lord's resurrection body.  Immortal and glorified.

I apologize for not having read all the replies.  Probably already been answered.

Can't wait!

Edited February 1, 2023 by FreeGrace

[WilliamL]

On 1/30/2023 at 2:23 PM, seeking the lost said:

Jesus spoke of the resurrection of those who believe in Him and said it would be on the last day.

John 6:44 KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The last day is at the end of the thousand years.

On 1/31/2023 at 12:53 PM, seeking the lost said:

The last day is the day after which there are no other days.

The last "day" is the 7th Millennium, according to Bible speak: the last "day" of the 7-day week of 1000 years each.

There will be no literal last day, because the ages will never end:

Ephesians 3:21 ...to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever [literally, unto the ages of the ages].

 

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Thy people is probably 'of the faith in belief' and not ethnicity. 'Many' here is poetic as the word connotes great, vast, huge, etc., not a subset. 

 

"Thy people" appears a number of times in Daniel. I judge that God does not say "My People" because of Hos designation of "Lo-ammi" - you are NOT MY people. In Daniel 9:16 it seems to be clear that it is Israel.

I think that "many" and not "all" is because the Covenant that God honors to bring back Israel needs circumcision. A certain contingent of Jews in the diaspora will not be circumcised. So God must carry out the terms of the Covenant and "cut them off from their people" (Gen.17:14)

[Diaste]

On 1/31/2023 at 12:53 PM, seeking the lost said:

The two resurrections mentioned in Revelation 20 are different than you describe.  The first resurrection is very specific only for those who have been beheaded.  Revelation 20: 4, I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  There are many that are not included in this resurrection and are described as the rest of the dead.  The rest of the dead includes many of "the dead in Christ."

Those who believe in Jesus are raised on the last day as Jesus says.  The last day is the day after which there are no other days.  That is the day of judgment.  That is the day that all stand before the throne and are judged.  This is the time that the books are opened and separation happens.  Sheep to the right goats to the left.

I would only suggest it's the beheaded and those who did not receive the mark and those who refused to worship the beast and his image. 

A reason for this is the living taken off the earth when Jesus arrives. The living taken up will have refused the mark and the worship. 

Another is the ones from out of GT in Rev 7. I'm convinced this is the living and the resurrected dead taken up when Jesus returns.

From that it seems to me that both the living taken up and the resurrected dead are in the group in Rev 20 and rule and reign with Jesus for 1000. 

But still only those from GT who faced the beast.

[maybe also any throughout all time who were beheaded for the word of God and their testimony of Jesus. Just a thought.]

IMO