Enoch, Elija, & Jesus

[com7fy8]

17 hours ago, Kaio-Ken said:

 Imagine making God so happy he takes you up.

Paul pleased God, I would say, but he understood he was needed here.

"For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:23-24)

[Your closest friendnt]

16 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Me?  I believe these two men who were very special and pleasing to God were translated (transferred) to heaven without having to experience physical death. 

s e l a h

Translated it is a difficult word...in his case they were no witnesses...no one witness what happened to him the very specifics...

So if someone was there and witness to what happened, what he must have witnessed to be able to use the word translated? 

We can say this what the word means and for that reason this what must have happened...This is not right and it is not correct...we should be able to describe what happened and then asked is there a word that if it use in this situation it can specifically communicate to others the specific events that took place...

No we can't tell what happened by trying to understand the meaning of the word "translate". 

We must have the original word and the cultural use of this word when the people spoke about it...and when someone decided to use this word...what about if this is not the original word...

Because the original is " that Enoch walk with God and he was not anymore...this is it..no one witness what happened...they only know that during one of his walks with God he did not come back...

[Your closest friendnt]

4 minutes ago, com7fy8 said:

Paul pleased God, I would say, but he understood he was needed here.

"For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:23-24)

Peter asked Jesus to take them with him when Jesus said that he is going to the Heavenly Father...

And Jesus did not approved of his suggestion and amongs other things he said that no one is greater than his master...and is not that he told them what plans he has for them and they way they will die....as to set the record strait that no one is going to be taken to Heaven while he is still alive and before dying...

Sorry about that I did not mean to follow you up..but I had nothing to do and your post came about. 

[Your closest friendnt]

18 hours ago, Kaio-Ken said:

Enoch was taken by the lord. (Could mean put to death or raptured)

I understand that there were not witnesses but the context is that he had please God and he had God's favor big time.. and the suggestion that he had to kill him first and then take him to Heaven it does attempts to make a point about what the people believed but not nessecerilly at the time that even took place but at a later times..

There is the witness we have 

But definitely God did not killed him so he can take him to Heaven without the body...

And why would he do that...and at that time and at this age when the people used to live a few hundred years longer at the time when this took place...

The beliefs of the people it can be seen when Elijah was taken up by the Chariot the school of the prophets did not believe that could happen...and they were looking for his body...at some place...saying the Lord took him and he throw his body some place and they were looking for it...

Even though Elisha told them not to bother because the Lord took him as he was...

@Kaio-Ken Elijah did not ascended to Heaven this is the point I wanted to make...he wrode the chariot...

God provided transportation for him...that's the only way for that to happen and not without "transportation".

Jesus was ascended and infront of witnesses and he had told them what was about to happen...

As he was standing there he began to ascend to Heaven..

And the Angel said in the same way he went up in the same way he will come down...without transportation.  Just to distinguish the difference and in that may help you in your quest to find out what you are looking for.  

18 hours ago, Kaio-Ken said:

Elijah for sure ascended into heaven.

Jesus of course ascended into heaven.

 

Do you think another person could please God so much to allow him to do this? These three figures mean allot to me, one being God himself, but the other two shows me a potential in me to please God. Imagine making God so happy he takes you up. 

 

Im just a few head aches away from cracking this mystery... me -> 

 

edit:

scriptures says 

New question where did enoch and elijah go? 

 

[Dennis1209]

11 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Is it possible that this scripture is speaking like it did of hagar?

Ge 21:16  And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.
The Greek for "see" strongs 1492 as well as 1492 is also used of Enoch.

1492 οιδα oida oy’-da or εἴδω eido i’-do

a root word; v; TDNT-5:116,673; {See TDNT 538} v a root word; TDNT-5:116,706; {See TDNT 559}

AV-know 281, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 17, look 6, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 667

1) to see
1a) to perceive with the eyes
1b) to perceive by any of the senses
1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
1d) to see
1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
1d2) to pay attention, observe
1d3) to see about something 1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
1d4) to inspect, examine
1d5) to look at, behold
1e) to experience any state or condition
1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2) to know
2a) to know of anything
2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
2b1) of any fact
2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
2b3) to know how, to be skilled in
2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (#1Th 5:12)

For Synonyms see entry 5825 

Enoch had sons and daughters, the seventh from Adam. Noah, was the tenth. Did the lord let him die a natural death so he would not "see"/be aware/take concern for,     the death of his children, and grandchildren? Where Noah, only eight were saved, his own sons? So all Enochs offspring died in the flood of God's wrath with the exception of Noah and his sons?

Just a thought

Interesting points you make. Methuselah had the longest life span at 969 years, if memory serves. I recall Methuselah’s natural death would be the trigger to bring the flood. It seems likely, for more than one reason, Methuselah would have outlived all his siblings possibly.

If true, none of Enoch’s children would have perished in flood, but his grandchildren would have. Your thoughts about Enoch’s concern for his children are good ones.

Jude 14 (KJV) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

In Enoch’s day, the whole world was becoming corrupt. Enoch was a Prophet; I would suspect his children would have been adequately taught and had a fear of the Lord.

Certainly, Enoch and everyone else would have known about the first man created out of the dust of the earth. During Enoch’s life, the population numbers would have been relatively low, as compared to today, but exploding. Adam was yet alive during most of Enoch’s lifetime.

I wonder if Enoch and Adam ever met. Would it not be human nature to want to ask Adam many questions? What was your first memory? What was it like growing up 😊. Why and how did you select each animal's name, etc.?

The discovery below, credited to the late Dr. Charles Missler, is fascinating.

FIRST TEN GENERATIONS

Adam (Man)

Seth (Appointed)

Enosh (Mortal)

Kenan (Sorrow)

Mahalalel - Mahalaleel (the blessed God)

Jared (shall come down)

Enoch (teaching)

Methuselah (His death shall bring)

Lamech (the despairing)

Noah (rest or comfort)

“Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow, (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest”

 

[Anne2]

15 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Greetings AdHoc,

You replied before I posted my thoughts; I only now read them. Not to debate or be argumentative; we are mainly on the same page. But I have a question. The Greek word harpazo only means a movement, not even a direction, unless specified.

Acts 8:39 (KJV) And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazo)  Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. [emphasis added]

Quote: “The Bible says that both did not see death and both were taken up to heaven. Since they are still living and not on the earth today, they must be in heaven.”

For my information, where do you see Elijah as being “translated?” I interpret Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind in the first of three heavens and transported to an undisclosed location. True, Elijah was an important biblical figure and servant of God, and one would imagine his death would have been recorded.

As I mentioned above, there is a preponderance of evidence Elijah lived well after his relocation, according to the chronology of the Kings of Judah and Israel. Or he wrote that letter before his death as with the 150-year-old letter to King Cyrus? Or, the chronology of the kings is not correct but unlikely. I believe we have discussed this before.

As far as I have studied, Enoch was the only man to be translated, not tasting death. Those with saving faith at the harpazo will not taste death and be translated in the twinkling of an eye. In my opinion, Enoch was a “type” of the Rapture of the church, not seeing death and being removed from judgment. Noah and the seven seem to be a remnant of those carried through tribulation and judgment and 1/3 (a remnant) of Israel through the Tribulation.

As always, discussing the Bible and our views is a pleasure.

 "translated" is strongs # 3346. It is used 6x in the new testament.

Said of Jacobs death in Egypt, removed to his father Abrahams sepulchre

1. Ac 7:16  And were carried over <3346> into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sumI just realized, "translated" is strongs # 3346. It is used 6x in the new testament.

Of the Galatians removed from calling of Christ

2 Ga 1:6  I marvel that ye are <3346> so soon removed <3346> from him that

called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

3. Heb 7:12  For the priesthood being changed <3346>, 

4. Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated <3346> that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated <3346>

5. Jude 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning <3346> the grace of our God into lasciviousness, 

Also in the Greek LXX

Removing the boundaries of tribal inheritance

Ho 5:10  The princes of Judah were like them that remove ,<05253> the bound: therefore I will pour out my wrath upon them like water.

This, makes me wonder about moving away from those whom God is going to bring wrath, to not share in that wrath?

Nu 16:26  And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.

Distinction between those that provoked and those that did not

29  If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
30  But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Anne2

[Kaio-Ken]

Thanks for mentioning Peter's desire to go away to heaven but understanding he's needed on earth. Also I forgot one scripture that says no man has entered heaven except for the son of man, I did hear about Elijah being transported to another location just can't quite put my finger on that. But as far as Enoch goes, without a doubt we can say he was taken somewhere heavenly. 

 

So far this my math of the situation lol, 

Quote

My Einstein Formula:

Bossom of Abraham = Paradise ≠ Heaven & is in the proximity of hell. (literal viewing distance)

 

If anyone has been taken by God, then that is where they are if they are in the lord. Its the only way this would make sense.

 

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Greetings AdHoc,

You replied before I posted my thoughts; I only now read them. Not to debate or be argumentative; we are mainly on the same page. But I have a question. The Greek word harpazo only means a movement, not even a direction, unless specified.

Acts 8:39 (KJV) And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazo)  Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. [emphasis added]

Quote: “The Bible says that both did not see death and both were taken up to heaven. Since they are still living and not on the earth today, they must be in heaven.”

For my information, where do you see Elijah as being “translated?” I interpret Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind in the first of three heavens and transported to an undisclosed location. True, Elijah was an important biblical figure and servant of God, and one would imagine his death would have been recorded.

As I mentioned above, there is a preponderance of evidence Elijah lived well after his relocation, according to the chronology of the Kings of Judah and Israel. Or he wrote that letter before his death as with the 150-year-old letter to King Cyrus? Or, the chronology of the kings is not correct but unlikely. I believe we have discussed this before.

As far as I have studied, Enoch was the only man to be translated, not tasting death. Those with saving faith at the harpazo will not taste death and be translated in the twinkling of an eye. In my opinion, Enoch was a “type” of the Rapture of the church, not seeing death and being removed from judgment. Noah and the seven seem to be a remnant of those carried through tribulation and judgment and 1/3 (a remnant) of Israel through the Tribulation.

As always, discussing the Bible and our views is a pleasure.

It is a pleasure to discuss with you. I like your factual way. A soldier's directness avoids ambiguity.

Perhaps our difference is not so much what happened, but in how we deal with scripture. And even here we are not far apart. Let me put it this way. If I study a matter that is not crucial doctrine, I feel the liberty to establish something with just a single default. I take this liberty because of my absolute trust in God's Word. I believe Daniel Chapter 2 that God does what He wants among men and "no one can stay His hand". So once I have satisfied myself that I have a good and accurate rendering of God's Word, I build on it. Others are not so free to do this. I applaud them though because they are careful and skeptical in a world full of wolves.

So, when the plain ans simple grammar of 2nd Kings 2 says twice that God wanted to, and did, take Elijah to heaven, it is settled for me. Another might not be so quickly convinced. I applaud him, but do not feel pressured to find a second and even third proof. The scene at Jerusalem with the Beast in power is only important to me because Christ's ultimate glory is intertwined with this evil man.  While the Two Witnesses testify in Jerusalem, I hope to be "standing before the Son of man in the clouds" (Lk.21:35-36). That 2nd Kings 2 TWICE says that God would take Elijah to heaven is enough for me to believe that God achieved His plan. 

But there is more. Because contemporary Christianity believes that a Christian goes to heaven at death, the rapture of Elijah to heaven provokes no discussion. But if I point out that according to Acts 2:25-34, that David's dusty body was still in Jerusalem and that his soul was still in Hades 50 days after Christ's death and resurrection, all effort is spent to circumvent this. But the undeniable fact is that ONLY LIVING MEN GO TO HEAVEN. There is no record of a dead man going to heaven. It is a Roman catholic myth. Men can twist and suppose verses to mean what they do not say, but there is simply no record of a dead man going to heaven. A dead man is naked and unclean in death and must wait in Hades, like David. The dead RISE is plain and simple. They dead in 1st Thessalonians 4 RISE. When? At the coming of the Lord to the clouds. When? At the last Trump. Why? To meet the Lord in the air! TO MEET HIM??? Have they not been with Him since Christians died? YES! But not in heaven ... for they RISE - not "descend".

And so, Elijah ascends ALIVE to heaven. Did God kill him there some years later? I don't know because there is nothing said. Did he die of old age in heaven. I don't know because nothing is said. But consider this; It is prophesied that Elijah will COME and come BEFORE the great and fearful day of the Lord. If he is dead, on what basis is he resurrected out of time? Are not the dead in Christ due to be resurrected "WHEN HE COMES" (1st Cor.15:23, 1st Thess.4:16). But this is not all. the dead are naked because the body is put off (2nd Cor.5:1-3). And this body is not fit for the Kingdom. How then is Elijah with the Lord on a high mountain IN THE KINGDOM? There can only be one answer. Elijah was alive at Christ's time and Elijah will still be alive when the Great Tribulation begins.

Let us then do away with the last argument. It is this; Is God able to sustain alive a believer for 2,800 years? No problem! Enoch is stated in Hebrews 10:5 that he would not see death. No other statement is made. Has God spoken? Is His Word granite? If so, Enoch has been alive for over 4,500 years. That's only four times Adam's days - or, four and one half DAYS for the Lord (2nd Pet.3:8).

You are correct. We have discussed Elijah's "writing" to Jehoram. Most expositors agree that the argument can go both ways. I consider this the most likely. Elijah was a fearless prophet. He stood before Ahab and only wilted at the evil of Jezebel. He is recorded as killing 400 false prophets at Carmel. Even if these prophets did not fight back, they would have ducked and weaved to save themselves. Imagine the exhaustion after you have chased and hacked with a heavy sword, 400 able bodied men who resisted. Then, with fear gnawing, you make a journey on foot of a 100 kilometer. This Elijah is U.S. Marine material. He faces Ahab, he hacks 400 able-bodied to death and then on an empty stomach does a 60-mile march in the desert. Why then did he "write" to Jehoram??? Well ... it does not say. But there is a powerful argument that Jehoram would be evil at a future date when Elijah would not be around. Would not this brave man with the Spirit of God have met Jehoram face to face if he was around?

But in the end, after each has considered the others' opinions, will it matter to the Overcomer who the Two Witnesses are? Even if you were a resident of Jerusalem a the time, you wouldn't be around. The day the Two Witnesses start prophesying, is the day you would have left your coat and plow and run for the hills.

Go well friend.

 

[ChristB4us]

On 4/2/2023 at 6:17 AM, Kaio-Ken said:

Enoch was taken by the lord. (Could mean put to death or raptured)

Elijah for sure ascended into heaven.

Jesus of course ascended into heaven.

May I suggest a question;  the heaven that Enoch & Elijah was taken to may just be referring to the upper atmosphere and not God's Throne.  Case being the point are these scripture below.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I believe Enoch & Elijah will be the two witnesses in Jerusalem for the first half of the great tribulation.  They are being transported through time and space to that place; if there are stops along the way, there is scripture that this could be so.

Mark 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Some say that Moses & Elijah will be the two witnesses but both of those witnesses will die and resurrect after a third day and be raptured halfway through the great tribulation.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Since this is written;

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

And Moses had died and was buried, I tend to believe it will be Enoch & Elijah since they had never die died yet and has not inherited the firstfruit of the resurrection yet because they are being transported through space and time to be those two witnesses in Jerusalem.

Evidence of another kind of transportation but from one place to another is found here in the N.T.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

So there is precedent to believe there is a divine transporting of Enoch & Elijah to Jerusalem to be the two witnesses for the first half of the great tribulation.

Of course, Jesus Christ did ascend to God's Throne after His resurrection and not merely into the upper atmosphere.

[Anne2]

3 hours ago, Kaio-Ken said:

Thanks for mentioning Peter's desire to go away to heaven but understanding he's needed on earth. Also I forgot one scripture that says no man has entered heaven except for the son of man, I did hear about Elijah being transported to another location just can't quite put my finger on that. But as far as Enoch goes, without a doubt we can say he was taken somewhere heavenly. 

 

So far this my math of the situation lol, 

 

If anyone has been taken by God, then that is where they are if they are in the lord. Its the only way this would make sense.

 

What is this, third heaven?

2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.