Enoch, Elija, & Jesus

[Alive]

I believe the Creative Word is not static, but continues.

[ChristB4us]

40 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

You both have compelling arguments. I think the weight of evidence makes it Paul, but I could be wrong. Galatians 2:1 seems to favor Paul. Also, the argument that Paul had experienced what he did 14 years prior to writing and his date of writing and John would only experience what he experienced some 30 years later when Paul was already dead.

It's lovely to see sustained logical argument - especially in this spirit.

I believe that the "thorn" that Paul received was in his flesh only. Is not God gracious? He shows His dealings but withholds the gory details. If you read the autobiographies and/or biographies of men used much by God, they all seem to have suffered a weakness.

Sorry about my earlier post because I had to edit it to include the word "not" in it to explain that Paul was "not" referring to himself in 2-4 verses, but to the apostle John, indirectly.

As for his thorn, Paul describing it as a "messenger of Satan to buffet him in the flesh" is why I believe he was hearing voices.  I really can see why he had prayed for it to be removed, since he was not praying for a healing as if by some wound or because of failing eyesight which is regarded highly as being his thorn in the flesh.

We prophesy in part and know in part, but one day we shall know the truth when we see Him face to face.

May God cause the increase.

 

[ChristB4us]

27 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

That is a possibility I would not argue over. But I still cling to the traditional view it was Paul. From the time Paul wrote about this man about 14 years ago. It was Paul who was stoned to death and left for dead. I liken it to Stephen:

Acts 7:56 (KJV) And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

I take from the vocabulary; Paul was forbidden to talk about what he heard and saw. I do not think Paul wanted to draw attention to himself, so he spoke in the third person. We all have different views, and yours may well be correct.

I know I had to edit my earlier post to clarify that I was saying Paul was "not" referring to himself in verses 2-4, but the post you had replied to did not contain that error.

Anyway, as we all make mistakes, Paul was not stoned to death, but Stephen was.

I believe Paul suffered an injury from some coppersmith that did him much evil.

2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. 16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. 17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

But I will know for sure when I see Him face to face in Heaven since we all prophesy in part and know in part.

[Your closest friendnt]

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your reply.

I realize that the notion of a heavenly abode is cherished by many, but man is not made for heaven. There are simply no scriptures to support this. All indications are that man was made from the earth, nourished by the earth, for the earth (Gen.1:26-28). At death he "descends" below the earth while his body returns to the elements of the earth. Abraham and his seed are promised Canaan and later "the whole world" (Rom.4:13). Jesus prays that God's Kingdom "would COME" (to earth) and that His will would be done ON EARTH. The Kingdom of God promised in Daniel 2 would "fill the whole earth" and in Revelation 11 the kingdoms of the earth become the kingdoms of our Lord.

There is not a single scripture that plainly says that man is for heaven. He might have a short sojourn there to escape the Great Tribulation, but he will return to earth with Christ.

But I realize that what you believe is widely held.

Go well brother.

Thank you for not going away from the discussion...

How well you have put it that man was not created with a Heavenly Inheritance....

This is so beautiful....

His Inheritance was determined at the time Adam and Eve ate from the for bitten fruit of the tree.. 

You can follow the words of God when he said to the Serpent that he has to wait till the coming of the seed of the woman to settle this matter that for the mean time he can take mankind by DEFAULT to his temporary inheritance at the time of the death of his physical body...

Which was a descending Inheritance....as we understand in some place in the earth...and because of this "the Serpent " could not take no one to that place while man was still in alive in his body because that was impossible...he had to wait for man to die...unless God intervene as in the case of Enoch before the Flood and take him with his body to Heaven something that it is possible...

Later we learn in the scriptures that Death and Hades worked together...

That when the physical body died we can see the Inheritance of man that was not Heavenly even the Inheritance of the perfect man after his death which was Abel....the witness of the Lord that Abel was not gathered to him after his death and the cries of Abel because he was taken away from God or when someone else took him at the time of his death and that one was not God or his Angels. 

Later we learn that at that time Death was "harvesting" anyone at his death and he was given them to Hades who was following to keep them in his Kingdom the kingdom of the God of the dead...in the Death that came with Adam and at the time of the death of their body...

Which is telling us that the people when they were born they were born to him only he could not take them while still in their bodies and he had to wait till their body dies. .when they can be "free" from their physical body...

Briefly that change with Abraham and the people of God in the Covenant of Circumcision and the Sinai Covenant when Death and Hades were off limits to then and they could not touch them...off limits..

They were alive to God even though they were descended at the time of their death in the place God gave to Abraham as his Inheritance...while they were waiting for the one with the Heavenly Inheritance The Son of God Jesus Christ...to included in his Heavenly Inheritance....

And to include everyone who believes in him in his Heavenly Inheritance...

This is why Jesus said about the poor Lasarus that he died and the Angels of God took him to Abraham...

Death and Hades are not there they were off limits because they were the children of God when they lived and continued to be the children of God after the death of their physical body...

With Jesus Christ we learn that He took the Keys of Death and Hades and that Jesus Christ is the one who judges everyone at the time of their death and if they are found with the denial in them that they heard and understood the Gospel and to their detriment they made their conscious desition not to believe till the death of their physical body...

They were put in the valley of decision and they died in their denial to believe in Jesus Christ and be part of his Heavenly Inheritance.  

 

 

[AdHoc]

3 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Sorry about my earlier post because I had to edit it to include the word "not" in it to explain that Paul was "not" referring to himself in 2-4 verses, but to the apostle John, indirectly.

As for his thorn, Paul describing it as a "messenger of Satan to buffet him in the flesh" is why I believe he was hearing voices.  I really can see why he had prayed for it to be removed, since he was not praying for a healing as if by some wound or because of failing eyesight which is regarded highly as being his thorn in the flesh.

We prophesy in part and know in part, but one day we shall know the truth when we see Him face to face.

May God cause the increase.

 

I follow your thinking. I was once asked by an aggressive sister what I thought it was. I said that based on Paul's appreciation of the flesh in Romans 7 and Philippians 3:21 that he he might have had pedophile tendencies. Instead of refuting me, she gave me a filthy look and walked off. We are all somehow connected to Paul and admire him, so such a thought is abhorrent. But if the chastening of the Lord is "grievous", what would humble a man who had been raptured to both the third heaven and paradise? Added to this, he testified under inspiration that he was chiefest of sinners - no doubt his referral to killing Christians.

But I speculate. The Lord was silent on the matter. So should I be.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Ge 6:5)

 

[AdHoc]

14 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thank you for not going away from the discussion...

How well you have put it that man was not created with a Heavenly Inheritance....

This is so beautiful....

His Inheritance was determined at the time Adam and Eve ate from the for bitten fruit of the tree.. 

You can follow the words of God when he said to the Serpent that he has to wait till the coming of the seed of the woman to settle this matter that for the mean time he can take mankind by DEFAULT to his temporary inheritance at the time of the death of his physical body...

Which was a descending Inheritance....as we understand in some place in the earth...and because of this "the Serpent " could not take no one to that place while man was still in alive in his body because that was impossible...he had to wait for man to die...unless God intervene as in the case of Enoch before the Flood and take him with his body to Heaven something that it is possible...

Later we learn in the scriptures that Death and Hades worked together...

That when the physical body died we can see the Inheritance of man that was not Heavenly even the Inheritance of the perfect man after his death which was Abel....the witness of the Lord that Abel was not gathered to him after his death and the cries of Abel because he was taken away from God or when someone else took him at the time of his death and that one was not God or his Angels. 

Later we learn that at that time Death was "harvesting" anyone at his death and he was given them to Hades who was following to keep them in his Kingdom the kingdom of the God of the dead...in the Death that came with Adam and at the time of the death of their body...

Which is telling us that the people when they were born they were born to him only he could not take them while still in their bodies and he had to wait till their body dies. .when they can be "free" from their physical body...

Briefly that change with Abraham and the people of God in the Covenant of Circumcision and the Sinai Covenant when Death and Hades were off limits to then and they could not touch them...off limits..

They were alive to God even though they were descended at the time of their death in the place God gave to Abraham as his Inheritance...while they were waiting for the one with the Heavenly Inheritance The Son of God Jesus Christ...to included in his Heavenly Inheritance....

And to include everyone who believes in him in his Heavenly Inheritance...

This is why Jesus said about the poor Lasarus that he died and the Angels of God took him to Abraham...

Death and Hades are not there they were off limits because they were the children of God when they lived and continued to be the children of God after the death of their physical body...

With Jesus Christ we learn that He took the Keys of Death and Hades and that Jesus Christ is the one who judges everyone at the time of their death and if they are found with the denial in them that they heard and understood the Gospel and to their detriment they made their conscious desition not to believe till the death of their physical body...

They were put in the valley of decision and they died in their denial to believe in Jesus Christ and be part of his Heavenly Inheritance.  

 

 

Thank you for your reply. You cover a lot of ground and I need time to consider it.

Go well brother.

[Your closest friendnt]

Just now, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your reply. You cover a lot of ground and I need time to consider it.

Go well brother.

Brother it is good , very good to engage in a discussion with you..

I had to because many read what happened in the times before The death of Jesus Christ and they think that continue there after...

Even the principals in the narrative of the Lazarus story have change...

We are after the death of Jesus Christ and not before and Jesus has made the distinction many times later on....

He said that God has appointed him to be the Judge of all people...and he will judge the people who oppose him...he was telling the people that he is the Lord Christ of God and that as in the case of Abraham where his children were gathered to him...in the place God gave him as his Inheritance...a descending Inheritance...not need to prove that because David said who he understand that he is longing and he will be waiting in the Bosom of Abraham for the Messiah the one with the Heavenly Inheritance to come and take him out of their to his Heavenly Inheritance...of course Abraham and Issac and Jacob and all their descendants were also waiting for the same thing...

The Lord told him close at the time of his death that he has to go to Abraham and wait there for the one with the Heavenly Inheritance...and of course that would include that David will tell them everything the Lord show him about what were his plans for them...

John the Baptist who was going before the Lord completed his mission by going to the Bossom of Abraham before Jesus Christ and prepared the way for his coming to tell them that the Messiah had come and he net him and the witness from God at the time of his baptism and what Jesus told him when was in jail...when Jesus did a lot of miracles in the presence of John's disciples and told them go and tell John what you have witnessed...his answer to his question...John prepared Abraham and Issac and Jacob and David for the coming of Jesus Christ to them at the time of his death...

John could recognize him and could identify him...AMEN.

[ChristB4us]

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I follow your thinking. I was once asked by an aggressive sister what I thought it was. I said that based on Paul's appreciation of the flesh in Romans 7 and Philippians 3:21 that he he might have had pedophile tendencies. Instead of refuting me, she gave me a filthy look and walked off. We are all somehow connected to Paul and admire him, so such a thought is abhorrent. But if the chastening of the Lord is "grievous", what would humble a man who had been raptured to both the third heaven and paradise? Added to this, he testified under inspiration that he was chiefest of sinners - no doubt his referral to killing Christians.

But I speculate. The Lord was silent on the matter. So should I be.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Ge 6:5)

 

I read Romans 7th chapter as Paul describing his life as a Pharisees in his dealing with sin.  Going from the end of Romans 7th chapter into Romans 8th chapter has Paul thanking the Lord and exhorting believers not to walk after the flesh les they fall into condemnation, but after the Spirit.

Thus there is condemnation to those that err and walk after the flesh in sowing to the flesh in reaping corruption.

Philippians 3:21 can just be referring to our body of death that will be changed come the rapture event.

Try as I might, I cannot see any indication of Paul being a pedophile, ( not saying it could not happen mentally as there is a battlefield of the mind ) since there is that referring to his struggle in the flesh in casting down wicked imaginations and leaning on Jesus to think on good things.

2 Corinthians 10:1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you: 2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? if any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

I think his boasting as a Pharisees may have something to do with that perspective as he was downplaying the boastful religious man when inwardly, he was vile, needing Jesus Christ to live the godly life.

Philippians 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. 17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

But seeing how there is no way to know the many kinds of battlefields that was in Paul's mind, I doubt he could ever be tempted to actually commit the sin of a pedophile as a saved believer.  He would not only lose himself as an ensample, but from being an apostle as well.

No born again pedophile can ever take the place of trust in being with the children as one should consider it the same as putting alcohol in front of an alcoholic.

Jesus can save them from being a pedophile and keep them from being a pedophile, but they should not put themselves in that position again to commit the sin of being a pedophile.

Can they marry and have children and be kept by Jesus in that way?  Jesus can do it if the former pedophile is trusting Him to be his or her personal Good Shepherd to keep them from such temptations as one verse comes to mind.

Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

So a former born again pedophile should remember that committing a sin against a child is the same as sinning against the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

The hell fire mention here in verse 9 is from the Greek word, Gehenna, which is a refuse dump outside of Jerusalem and also known as the valley of slaughter and so this "hell" is on earth, not the after life,  as that believer is at risk of being left behind at the rapture event.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/index2.htm

There is always time for pedophiles to repent and depart from that sin with His help but measures should be taken to avoid such temptations by not being around children but they can trust Him to provide the escape if they do.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Not sure how you can say that Paul was "not" referring to himself in the second, third, and fourth verses.  The first verse and then afterwards, yeah, but he used a pronoun to defer from himself as well as referring to a man he knew.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

But I agree that afterwards, Paul was speaking about himself for why he was given a thorn in the flesh to prevent others from thinking more highly of him than they ought to think because of all those revelations that came from the Lord through him.

I believe that thorn in the flesh was him hearing voices in his head as describing it as messengers of Satan to buffet him in the flesh because poor eyesight or an injury would hardly prevent anyone from thinking higher of him than they ought to think but hearing voices...?, that would do it.

The context is classic Paul who is known for listing. (Btw, He was stoned, see Acts 14)

When you work through the long list of afflictions, sufferings, and hardships that amounted to a thorn in the flesh for Paul, a messenger from Satan sent to buffet him, allowed by God to keep him humble whilst being in receipt of great revelations and awesome visions from God, it adds up to quite a sum.

2Co 12:6-10  For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.  (7)  And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.  (8)  Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.  (9)  And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.  (10)  Therefore I take pleasure

# in infirmities, (= % thorn)

# in reproaches, (= % thorn)

# in needs, (= % thorn)

# in persecutions, (= % thorn)

# in distresses, (= % thorn)

for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

[ChristB4us]

29 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

The context is classic Paul who is known for listing. (Btw, He was stoned, see Acts 14)

When you work through the long list of afflictions, sufferings, and hardships that amounted to a thorn in the flesh for Paul, a messenger from Satan sent to buffet him, allowed by God to keep him humble whilst being in receipt of great revelations and awesome visions from God, it adds up to quite a sum.

2Co 12:6-10  For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.  (7)  And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.  (8)  Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.  (9)  And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.  (10)  Therefore I take pleasure

# in infirmities, (= % thorn)

# in reproaches, (= % thorn)

# in needs, (= % thorn)

# in persecutions, (= % thorn)

# in distresses, (= % thorn)

for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

You may have to cite your reference and Bible version because mine says otherwise.

Acts 14:5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them, 6 They were ware of it, and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:

They made an attempt to stone them but they were made aware of it and fled.

As for that specific thorn that he had prayed that would be removed, he had described it as a messenger of Satan to buffet him in the flesh for why I believe he was hearing voices.  Yes, there are other griefs, but this specific thorn was given to prevent others from thinking higher of him than they ought to think for why it was given him.  None of the other griefs that he had listed was that thorn in the flesh but just announcing all the other griefs that the Lord will carry him through as well.

Thanks for sharing.