Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[Your closest friendnt]

@WilliamL

It does not seem that you want to discuss the issues on Rev. 12: 

Who was taken to Heaven and God sat him on his Throne...

Can you discuss one issue at a time? 

I will make it easier...is it one or many...in the SINGULAR form or in plural? 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

 

On 5/15/2023 at 2:12 PM, WilliamL said:

With respect to issues about verses 8-10 and Michael and his angels casting down Satan etc.,

Copy text from rev. 12:7-9 bellow.

Revelation 12:7‐9. 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 

8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 

9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

***commentary of YCF. 

In v.7 we have Michael and his angels who fought against the dragon and his angels.  

**From the narrative it was Michael and his angels who initiated the fight and it is written that the dragon fought back....

in v.8 its written that the Dragon and his angels were not strong enough and they lost their place in Heaven. 

**We see that this fight happened in Heaven and it was between Michael and the dragon and their angels...the Dragon and his angels had a place in Heaven but after they lost the fight with Michael and his angels they lost their place in Heaven and they were expelled from Heaven and the Dragon and his angels were hurled to the earth v.9.

 

On 5/15/2023 at 2:12 PM, WilliamL said:

one must remember that the words for "angel" in both Greek and Hebrew simply mean "messenger." Sometimes these messengers are of purely heavenly origin,

@WilliamL

Michael and his angels in this specific context and every other context in the Bible are given authority to go on a mission...to accomplish what God had asked them to do...

Joshua 5:13-15 

In the context of Joshua 5:13-15 we have another example of the Angel of the Captain of the hosts of the army of the Lord who was on a mission from the Lord whom Joshua was allowed to see..

Joshua 5:13-15

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

**14 And he said, Nay;

but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him,

**What saith my Lord unto his servant?

**15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua,

**Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

**THE ABOVE EXAMPLE IS AN EXAMPLE WHERE Joshua. met a Man and he found out that this Man told him that he is the Captain of the Lord's army...

This was not someone of our "brethren" as in the book of Revelation chapter 22: 

**With Joshua "This Captain of the Army of the Hosts of the Lord" accepted worship from Joshua and told Joshua that he and all the hosts of the Lord's army are standing on Holy ground...to let Joshua know that all of them were Holy and were from the Holy Lord..or the God of Israel. V.9

And the Captain of the Lord's  army he said to Joshua when Joshua asked him what " message do you have from the Lord?" 

The Captain said to him to take off his shoes because he was standing on Holy Ground...the Captain of the army of the Lord let Joshua know that he was chosen from God and he was protected from God and God had made him Holy and he can stand in the presence of the Holy Angels of God and God has given the Captain of his host and the host to protect Joshua and the people in their quest to take the Land...to know that they were not alone... 

Your comments about the Angels of God can be taken that they only are to give messages and nothing else...and without any other powers to fight and protect..as in the verse where specifically states that Michael and the angels fought with the Dragon and his angels...unless I have misunderstood what you neant to comunicate..

The Angels are mighty and God gives them powers to do his will...whether in Heaven as in the case of Michael and his angels...and on earth as in the example of Joshua 5:13-15.

On 5/15/2023 at 2:12 PM, WilliamL said:

 

On 5/15/2023 at 2:12 PM, WilliamL said:

and other times they are men. The "angel" that spoke to John in Rev. 22 was clearly a man, telling him, "I am yourmm fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets..."

One must also remember the teaching in Heb. 1:14: "Are they [heaven's angels] not all ministering spirits, sent out to provide service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?"

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

Shadow of the things to come. The healing Angel of the pool of Siloam. 

**John 5: 2-6. In the context of this text we have a healing  Angel from God...it was given to him to heal all kinds of diseases and infirmities.

In this text Jesus went to the pool of Siloam...where people even sinners who had disobeyed the Covenant everyone without prejudice who was sick went there hoping to be healed. 

The Angel made no discrition between the obedient or the disobedient to the Covenant..

He invited them all to be healed without prejudice, because he stired the water before any one had stepped in the pool...without knowing who will be the first one to stepped in the pool and be healed. 

**Commentary; in this parcel of John 5:2-6 we have the healing Angel who without discrition invited everyone to be healed even the sinners...but not on the Sabath Day...

And then we have someone who is doing something greater than what the healing Angel did...we have Jesus who is stepping in the  healing Angels domain, the Angel sent from God and does something NEW...he heals someone on the Sabath Day...

We have Jesus who invaded the domain of the Angel from God...he healed someone on the turf of the healing Angel on the day the healings Angel was resting and on the day the Lord was supposed to rest, bringing something NEW that God with Jesus is bringing to the people a NEW Law...a New Covenant...where the Lord has done away with the Sabath Day Rest...

 

 

JOHN 5:2-4

2. Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep gate a pool, which is called in [a]Hebrew Bethesda, having five porticoes.

 3 In these lay a multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame, and withered, [[c]waiting for the moving of the waters; 

4 for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool and stirred up the water; whoever then first, after the stirring up of the water, stepped in was made well from whatever disease with which he was afflicted.]

[WilliamL]

On 5/15/2023 at 3:44 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

@WilliamL

It does not seem that you want to discuss the issues on Rev. 12: 

Who was taken to Heaven and God sat him on his Throne...

Can you discuss one issue at a time? 

I will make it easier...is it one or many...in the SINGULAR form or in plural? 

Already answered many times by Vine Abner and myself. Stop asking redundant questions, please.

On 5/16/2023 at 11:23 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by WilliamL

[Vine Abider]

I just read through Watchman Nee's chapter on the man-child in his book, The Glorious Church.  He concurs that the woman is God's people (both old & new covenant) and the man-child is the overcomers.

One thing he stated I'd not seen before regarding the passage in Luke chapter 10 where the Lord sent out disciples ahead of him.   "The^]seventy returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'  And He said to them, 'I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy . . .'"  When I read this, the lightbulb came on - this is a direct reference to what happens in Revelation 12.  Jesus heard from His disciples that they had casted out demons, and He immediately conveys this scene in Revelation 12.  Hoot there it is!  

[Vine Abider]

15 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I just read through Watchman Nee's chapter on the man-child in his book, The Glorious Church.  He concurs that the woman is God's people (both old & new covenant) and the man-child is the overcomers.

One thing he stated I'd not seen before regarding the passage in Luke chapter 10 where the Lord sent out disciples ahead of him.   "The^]seventy returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'  And He said to them, 'I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy . . .'"  When I read this, the lightbulb came on - this is a direct reference to what happens in Revelation 12.  Jesus heard from His disciples that they had casted out demons, and He immediately conveys this scene in Revelation 12.  Hoot there it is!  

@AdHoc @WilliamL I thought to elaborate a little on this post I made yesterday and what I saw. This passage in Luke 10 had always bothered me a little. The thing that bothered me was the Lord saying he watched Satan fall, as if it was something in the past. But we know that Satan, in this current age, still has access to the heavens, where he accuses us day and night. But I have two considerations about this.  One is that in Spirit and eternity, this has already happened. The other thought is that in looking at what His disciples were doing - using the authority Christ had given them - this was a demonstration of power over Satan and therefore his fall.  What are your thoughts?

In any case, the thing that really struck me about this passage is how closely it is linked to what the disciples were doing in the power and authority of Christ!  This is such a clear demonstration of the Lord's intention to restore man's lost authority and dominion, which culminates in heaven finding no place for the devil, once the man-child is caught up there (Rev 12)!

Seeing this is causing me to appreciate more the lofty question, "What is man that Thou art mindful of him?!" 

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

@AdHoc @WilliamL I thought to elaborate a little on this post I made yesterday and what I saw. This passage in Luke 10 had always bothered me a little. The thing that bothered me was the Lord saying he watched Satan fall, as if it was something in the past. But we know that Satan, in this current age, still has access to the heavens, where he accuses us day and night. But I have two considerations about this.  One is that in Spirit and eternity, this has already happened. The other thought is that in looking at what His disciples were doing - using the authority Christ had given them - this was a demonstration of power over Satan and therefore his fall.  What are your thoughts?

In any case, the thing that really struck me about this passage is how closely it is linked to what the disciples were doing in the power and authority of Christ!  This is such a clear demonstration of the Lord's intention to restore man's lost authority and dominion, which culminates in heaven finding no place for the devil, once the man-child is caught up there (Rev 12)!

Seeing this is causing me to appreciate more the lofty question, "What is man that Thou art mindful of him?!" 

Good stuff. It's lovely when the Lord lights a lamp of revelation in us.

I think I've mentioned it before, but our battle is different to Israel. Israel, being of Abraham's flesh and by their flesh Messiah came, fight, or fought, fleshly enemies. Then again, when it comes to spirit enemies, God hands it over to angels, except in one area. That is, who is your source? Let's take three persons who faced this. I'll reverse their historic placement to give the credit to our Lord Jesus.

In all his conflicts while on earth, our Lord Jesus sought to avoid physical conflict. As a baby he is taken to Egypt and makes no attempt to thwart Herod. He escapes every attempt on His life with no casualties on the enemy's side, and offers no resistance to His capture and torture. But scripture says that He defeated the devil by death (Heb.2:14). This s most unusual. The death of one of two antagonists usually heralds victory for the one still standing. The explanation lies in the wilderness.

In the wilderness, weakened to the uttermost by a 40 day fast, alone and unnoticed, He is accosted by the devil. In three things is He tempted.

1. He is tempted with bread - a sorely needed commodity. He would commit no sin to make bread by miracle. But He had been driven to His predicament by a Spirit and he would wait for that Spirit's decision as to relief. He refused to be the SOURCE of relief.

2. He is tempted by His position. It says that He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Men seek adoration and some is legitimate. But it is no sin when God requires and received adoration. It was His legal portion to be famous and admired. He could accept it by declaring Himself, and He could do many wondrous things to earn it. But He waits for the FATHER to glorify Him. Even now, some 2,000 years later He is slandered and reviled, yet He does nothing. But the day wil come when He comes in the glory of the FATHER.

3. He is tempted by the horror He faced. He is, by default, Maker, Owner and Heir to the creation. He could summon and army and occupy it - anytime. But the Father had put a small corner of the creature in the hands of Adam - the earth, and Adam had given it away to its previous governor. He could take it back by three means. (i) Militarily. He could get His army of angels to rip it from Satan. (ii) He could pay the devil's price and bow His knee to Satan. Or, (iii) He could pay for Adam who lost it. This third option would entail paying Adam's account in full, a horror that He would gladly avoid. A horror that he asked to miss in Gethsemane.

Jesus defeated the devil by waiting for, and paying a horror for, RECEIVING THE KINGDOM AT THE HAND OF HIS FATHER.

Abraham is next. In his decision to offer Lot the choice of Land, the refusal to take the spoils from the Sodomite kings, him paying and not accepting, as a gift, his burial field, and his belief that he would receive the Land despite death at the hand of Him Who was able to raise the dead, showed all that Abraham would wait for God to give Him his desires. God would be His source. Abraham died, "... not having received the Promises", but waited on HIM, "... who prepares a City for them"

Now we contrast these two with Eve. She is offered the same, in principle, as our Lord. Eve was not hungry, but she saw that the forbidden Tree was "good for food". She had everything except the fruit of a Tree that would kill her, and yet desired it because it looked good. And though Eve was "bone and flesh" of the one made in the image and likeness of God (Adam), she sought to be wise. This would have made her famous like Solomon, or even better, like God Himself. Despite God's Word, she received the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil FROM ANOTHER than Jehovah. SHE MISTRUSTED HER SOURCE. She tacitly agreed that God was an unreliable source.

Thus, the only and reasonable battle tactic against Satan is the denial of any other SOURCE than Jehovah. Our Lord Jesus defeated Satan by denying Himself and by His Word - His testimony that was aligned with God's Word. This cost Him His life - His shed blood. Likewise us. Our life might be a wilderness. Jesus was "driven" there - hungry, lonely, forgotten and rejected. But He was unwavering. He would rather die than mistrust the wisdom of His Father. He loved the Father more than His own "SOUL-LIFE". He set His hope on Him and His Word. So the Man-Child; 

 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev.12:11)

[Alive]

Amen!

[Alive]

Very good stuff, brother. This rings so true literally in my experience. Over the last few years, there have been various attacks and temptations and I have come to a habit, where I say to the Lord--"I want only you Lord." "I want none of that".

[AdHoc]

16 minutes ago, Alive said:

Very good stuff, brother. This rings so true literally in my experience. Over the last few years, there have been various attacks and temptations and I have come to a habit, where I say to the Lord--"I want only you Lord." "I want none of that".

Amen bro. The enemy is very subtle. God is capable of meeting both our needs and our desires. But He's got a plan and it might mean delay. The enemy convinces us to act and/or receive from another source. Abraham is still waiting. While we wait, the accuser whispers that God has forgotten us. But the Overcomer/Man-Child notices the emphasis on "patience" (Rev.2:2, 3, 19, 3:10). When Abraham didn't wait, didn't exercise patience, didn't wait for it at God's hand - he produced Ishmael - and God didn't talk to him for 13 years.

My experience is just like yours.