Do Christians Have Two Natures (a sin nature & a divine nature)?

[Mr. M]

8 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Yes - hallelujah we are born again with a new life and nature!  

From Strong's definition of the word "nature" (g5449) used in 2 Peter 1:4 ("partakers of the divine nature"): φύσις phýsis, foo'-sis; from G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usage

Eph 2:3 usage: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature ^G5449 the children of wrath, even as others.

So I think that definition seems good, does it not?

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the desires of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

John warns us that the things of this world, or "the course of this world"...

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:

...are enticing to the desires of the flesh. Saying that we no longer have a "sinful nature", is just semantics. If we are to be overcomers, we should consider "all that is in the world—the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, and the pride of life" as an element of that.

"The World" is always at enmity with God, therefore "the spirit of the world that freely operates in the children of disobedience" is obviously not of the Father. This caution is directed to the saints. As to no one ever being addressed as "sinner", what logical reason would there be for that to be found in the apostolic letters? Citing the absence of something in the letters or Acts neither proves or disproves anything. The on-going war between the flesh and spirit that is described in the NT, the need to mortify/crucify the flesh (a couple of translations do render sarx as 'sinful nature'), and to endure to the end and being overcomers; that is the essence.

[Vine Abider]

@Alive @Mr. M Here are a couple quotes I found from an online article regarding this topic from here: http://fbccs.org/resources/papers/new_identity.pdf  "A Radical New Identity" by Steve Hixon.  I've never heard of Steve Hixon, but on the first page he quotes David Needham, the author I mentioned in the opening post, who wrote the classic book, "Birthright: Christian, Do You Know Who You Are?"  (BTW - this book has made the rounds a few times in my local fellowship over the past couple decades)

“Christian is not simply a person who gets forgiveness, who gets to go to heaven, who gets the Holy Spirit, who gets a new nature. Mark this – A Christian is a person who has become someone he was not before. A Christian, in terms of his deepest identity, is a saint, a child of God, a divine masterpiece, a child of light, a citizen of heaven. Not only positionally, not only judicially, but actually. Becoming a Christian is not just getting something, no matter how wonderful that something may be. It is becoming someone.” >David Needham, Birthright<

In the article, Steve Hixon provides this list of who we are now in Christ: 

 I am the salt of the earth (Matt 5:13).

I am the light of the world (Matt 5:14).

I am a child of God (John 1:12).

I am Christ's friend (John 15:15).

I am a slave of righteousness (Romans 6:18).

I am a joint heir with Christ, sharing His inheritance with him (Romans 8:17).

I am a temple - a dwelling place - of God. His Spirit and His life dwells in me (1 Cor 3:16; 6:19).

I am a member of Christ's Body (1 Cor 12:27).

I am a new creation (2 Cor 5:17).

I am reconciled to God and am a minister of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:18,19).

I am a saint (Eph 1:1, Phil 1:1, Col 1:2).

I am God's workmanship - His handiwork - born anew in Christ to do His work (Eph 2:10).

I am a fellow citizen with the rest of God's family (Eph 2:19).

I am a prisoner of Christ (Eph 3:1;4:1).

I am righteous and holy (Eph 4:24).

I am a citizen of heaven, seated in heaven right now (Phil 3:20).

I am hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3).

I am chosen of God, holy and dearly loved (Col 3:12).

I am a partaker of Christ; I share in His life (Heb 3:14).

I am one of God's living stones, being built up in Christ as a spiritual house (1 Pet 2:5).

I am a member of a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession (1 Pet 2:9,10).

I am an alien and a stranger to this world in which I temporarily live (1 Pet 2:11).

I am an enemy of the devil (1 Pet 5:8)

I am born of God, and the evil one - the devil - cannot touch me (1 John 5:18).

[Vine Abider]

14 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Saying that we no longer have a "sinful nature", is just semantics. If we are to be overcomers, we should consider "all that is in the world—the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, and the pride of life" as an element of that.

And this is where this conversation sometimes lands: differing semantics . . . and that's fine.

However, may I submit to you that while "sinful nature" isn't really promoted in the new testament as it applies to regenerated ones, but the word "flesh"(sarx) is.  That is the word that is used mostly by Paul (nearly a hundred times) to describe what we're considering.

Paul is adamant that the Christian not identify themselves with the flesh/old man, but rather with the regenerated spirit (which is one with Christ), which is the reality of the new man in Christ.

[Sower]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Many would say Christians have both a sin nature and a divine nature, but what do you think scripture says about this (please show references)?

 

“I am crucified with Christ, but I live; yet not I anymore, but Christ lives in me. And, in that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith in the Son of God."      Galatians 2:20

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." KJV
Modern version;
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."  ESV

Above is for those confused about being saved or not.  And then there's GRACE, amazing grace.   More confused?

I believe that which I received from God cannot sin..Scriptures say none is without sin.
There is a war within us. Do I listen to my spirit, or my flesh. Seems there is two natures at battle, and I have the switch.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Present your bodies a living sacrifice. The battle for the mind, over and over. We must DO something. Running the race.

Or give it to God.
 

[Alive]

The principles of life and death are pretty simple, where we get twisted up, is how that is realized in a practical and experiential way.

Salvation is a Relocation…all of these things are defined and realized and apprehended when we understand what actually happened to us in the Cross, Resurretion and Ascension.

And yet, though we are hideen in Christ with God and have been, past tense, raised with a New Life, after having died..we have this treasure in earthen vessels.

Think about that analogy of the uprooted and upside down tree I shared. It is helpful.

[Stewardofthemystery]

Those who are not born again of the Spirit are still “in the flesh” which is still in the old Adam “sin nature”.

That “sin nature” or “the deeds of the flesh” are supposed to be put to death in us after being raised up a new man in Christ by the Spirit.

When a person is truly born again of the Spirit, they are no longer “in the flesh”

Romans 8:9

But ye are not “in the flesh,”but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[Vine Abider]

21 minutes ago, Sower said:

There is a war within us. Do I listen to my spirit, or my flesh. Seems there is two natures at battle, and I have the switch.

Yes, it seems like there are two natures. And I get that one may use the word "nature" when describing sin in the flesh. That is, "I have a sin nature," but that just sounds so foreign to me from what I've seen in the word concerning our new identity in Christ.

And maybe I titled this thread incorrectly . . . perhaps it should have been something like, "Do Christians identify as sinners or as a saints?"

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

This is in response to a comment @Retrobyter said on another thread, that i was already planning to do a thread on (isn't it something how the Spirit brings things up like this in a couple of us at the same time?) So I read a wonderful book on this topic a while back, that really opened my eyes which was titled, "Birthright: Christian, Do You Know Who You Are?" by Needham. Anybody else read this?

But before posting the gist of this book, I thought to ask the question: Many would say Christians have both a sin nature and a divine nature, but what do you think scripture says about this (please show references)?

Hi VA,

Living down under makes one late for the `party` or discussion.  Anyway, here are my thoughts. This is a great topic as it brings out what the Lord is doing daily in our lives.

When we are an unbeliever, we are ruled by our body and soulish desires. Our spirit is dead unto God.

As a believer we have our spirit alive to God and are partaking of the Divine nature. (2 Peter 1: 2 - 4) That Divine nature is - faithful, kind, merciful, long suffering, compassionate, tender loving, righteous, gracious, perfectness, holiness, etc. 

We are to grow in those aspects of the Divine nature through daily exercise. As we die to our `self` not letting the body and soul rule, then our spirit grows in Christ-likeness and the `fragrance` of Christ, like sweet perfume comes forth for others to receive of.

The battle is as we are growing in maturity the body and soul having so long been ruling can be the default mode, so we need to feed out spirits daily on the word, with song, with fellowship and speaking in tongues, which `edifies` the person. (1 Cor. 14: 4)

regards, Marilyn.

[Vine Abider]

14 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Those who are not born again of the Spirit are still “in the flesh” which is still in the old Adam “sin nature”.

That “sin nature” or “the deeds of the flesh” are supposed to be put to death in us after being raised up a new man in Christ by the Spirit.

When a person is truly born again of the Spirit, they are no longer “in the flesh”

Romans 8:9

But ye are not “in the flesh,”but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Great verse!  There is sin in the flesh and Romans 7:17 says sin dwells in the flesh. I prefer talking about the flesh, as this is what Paul refers to in his epistles over 90 times. Saying we have a sin nature . . . well I don't see that terminology being supported in scripture, so why say it? 

But as some have said, it may be viewed as merely semantics.  The important thing is we don't identify as sinners, because we've been saved out of that old identity (though we do still certainly sin sometimes) and placed into a new identity in Christ.

"While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Rom 5:8

[AnOrangeCat]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

But before posting the gist of this book, I thought to ask the question: Many would say Christians have both a sin nature and a divine nature, but what do you think scripture says about this (please show references)?

I say yes, and Paul describes it quite accurately in Romans 7:21-25. "So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.  For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.  What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

This points to a clear duality, which I feel like Jesus acknowledged when he told the disciples that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The way I see it a lot of sin is rooted in our earthly bodies. Natural drives and instincts unchecked and allowed to go outside of the context God intended. Crucifying our flesh isn't just a one and done thing. It's something we have to do day by day and in some cases moment by moment.