Where is the faith?

[luigi]

52 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

And that is what Jesus said was the condemnation…

John 3:19

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil

 

Very well said.

[Stewardofthemystery]

7 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

Well, our failure does not decide what God is able to do. Plus, our failure does not decide what God's word has to mean!

"I crashed my car when I reached thirty miles an hour; so this proves my car can not move as fast as sixty miles per hour. So, the manual is wrong or it just doesn't mean what people say it says."

Well, the driver was blind and did not trust the steering wheel and pedals to the control of the one who was supposed to drive the car while the blind person simply rested and rode in the passenger seat.

Jesus knows what to do with us. Jesus knows what His word means, better than we can choose and try to do and then either boast we did what He says to do, or fail and then claim His word must not mean what we tried to do.

Well, He does not mean what we can try to get our own selves to do. And if what we do does not work, this can be because what we are trying is not what works, and is not what God means.

But if God's word says He makes His children free from sin, this means what God knows He means. And I would say, that God is so better than we are, and therefore He knows better than what we can know He means . . . and does with us, for us to discover 

So, we need to always trust Him to do all He pleases with us, not limit ourselves to what we now can understand "freed from sin" to mean.

And sins include arguing and complaining and unforgiveness, by the way. These are anti-love things which can spoil our relating with God and people. And God's word guarantees that if we do everything "without complaining and disputing", we can "become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" > in Philippians 2:13-16. This means what God knows He is able to do with us . . . through "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6).

So, yes faith, and this "through love" > this all has to do with not only stopping some list of sins that we can think of, but this has to do with how we become in God's love.

And that was one of the points I was trying to make in the OP.   Are sinners trying to measure the words of God as being untrue based on their own sinful behavior?

Or should sinners instead measure themselves based on what the words of God says to be true?

If they judge the words of God as being untrue based on their own sinful behavior, then they have become a judge of the word, and not a doer of the word of God.

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

This is why we need to be born again of the Spirit….

And having received the promise of the Father,

to abide in Him.

1 John 2:24 Therefore let that abide in you 

which you heard from the beginning.

If what you heard from the beginning

abides in you, you also will abide

in the Son and in the Father. 

25 And this is the promise that

He has promised us—eternal life.

[Stewardofthemystery]

15 hours ago, George said:

The better translation would be "Be ye blameless (complete) as your Heavenly Father is blameless. (complete)"  Just so you know.

A friend of mine wrote an interesting Midrash on this particular passage if you're interested.

@other one  The issue when talking about sin ... is how John addressed it in 1 John.

1Jn 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8  If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Be blessed,

George

I can agree the word “perfect” can also mean to be “complete”.  Just as it is written we are “complete” in Him.

Colossians 2:10

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:”

Lets look at the word “perfect” in the Hebrew…

Gen 17:1 - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORDappeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walkbefore me, and be thou perfect. ^H8549
 

The word H8549….

Strong’s Definitions

תָּמִים tâmîym, taw-meem'; from H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth:—without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole.

When the words of God talk about being undefiled “without blemish” or “without spot” it is talking about being “without the mark of sin”

Ephesians 5:27

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 Timothy 6:14

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 9:14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Peter 1:19

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2 Peter 3:14

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[NConly]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I can agree the word “perfect” can also mean to be “complete”.  Just as it is written we are “complete” in Him.

Colossians 2:10

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:”

Lets look at the word “perfect” in the Hebrew…

Gen 17:1 - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORDappeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walkbefore me, and be thou perfect. ^H8549
 

The word H8549….

Strong’s Definitions

תָּמִים tâmîym, taw-meem'; from H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth:—without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole.

When the words of God talk about being undefiled “without blemish” or “without spot” it is talking about being “without the mark of sin”

Ephesians 5:27

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 Timothy 6:14

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 9:14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Peter 1:19

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2 Peter 3:14

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

I might add if one really wants to be saved do not give up, keep repenting

1 Peter 5:10

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

[Stewardofthemystery]

And let us be like Abraham, who did not stagger at the promises of God through unbelief, but was strong in faith.

Romans 4:20-22

King James Version

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.”

Jesus can perform a perfect work in you, if you will BELIEVE in what He says is True!

[Solus Christus]

The Apostle Paul has interesting passage on sin is sinning in us:

“As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

18 

I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. ^[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

19 

For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.

20 

Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

22 

For in my inner being I delight in God's law;

23 

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

24 

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

25 

Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.” (Romans 7:17-25)

[Stewardofthemystery]

1 hour ago, Solus Christus said:

The Apostle Paul has interesting passage on sin is sinning in us:

“As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

18 

I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. ^[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

19 

For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.

20 

Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

22 

For in my inner being I delight in God's law;

23 

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

24 

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

25 

Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.” (Romans 7:17-25)

People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19 

19 I speak after “the manner of men”because of “the infirmity of your flesh:”

Paul was trying to relate to a “carnal”audience who was still “struggling with sin” because they were still in “the flesh"(as is the “mannerism”of mankind) like a natural brute beast.

What Paul was showing in Romans 7 was the struggle and “enmity between” the law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit, as these 2 spirits and 2 natures are contrary to one another.
 

Notice in Romans 7 we are shown 2 laws, one is “the law of sin and death,” and the other is the law of God. We already saw in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin, now notice Paul confirms in verse 13 the law of God is not death either. 

Romans 7:12-25 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then “a law,”that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see “another law”in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to “the law of sin”which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with “the flesh” the law of sin.

In the above we see the 2 laws at work (flesh vs. Spirit) warring against one another. But are we to remain in this state of captivity and bondage being under the law of sin and death?

Scripture gives us the answer to this as well in Romans 8:1-4 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus “hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak “through the flesh,”God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

What we see in the above is walking after the flesh is serving sin and =being “under the law of sin and death.”

Thus when we are born again of the Spirit we are no longer walking in the lusts of the flesh. 

Notice what Paul says in Romans 8:9 “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
 

So it is the Spirit of Christ (the law of the Spirit of Life) that “makes us free” from the first nature and law that desires to walk in the flesh and serve sin.

Now some might say this does not mean we are set free from sin and death, just that we are set free from the law of God.
 

But that is not what is being said above by Paul. To what benefit would it serve to be only set free from a holy law, and not be made free from sin and death?

All that would amount to is a bunch of lawless sinners. Besides that, the Gentiles were never even under the Law of Moses to begin with, so how can you be set free from a law that you were never even under? Makes no sense. 

But the law that both Jews and Gentiles are firstborn “under,”is the “law of sin and death.”

Romans 3:9 “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are “all under sin;”

So hopefully you will see in this that it is sin you truly need to be “made free from,”because a servant of sin abides not in the house forever.

Peace and God bless

[Solus Christus]

57 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

 

People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19 

19 I speak after “the manner of men”because of “the infirmity of your flesh:”

Paul was trying to relate to a “carnal”audience who was still “struggling with sin” because they were still in “the flesh"(as is the “mannerism”of mankind) like a natural brute beast.

What Paul was showing in Romans 7 was the struggle and “enmity between” the law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit, as these 2 spirits and 2 natures are contrary to one another.
 

Notice in Romans 7 we are shown 2 laws, one is “the law of sin and death,” and the other is the law of God. We already saw in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin, now notice Paul confirms in verse 13 the law of God is not death either. 

Romans 7:12-25 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then “a law,”that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see “another law”in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to “the law of sin”which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with “the flesh” the law of sin.

In the above we see the 2 laws at work (flesh vs. Spirit) warring against one another. But are we to remain in this state of captivity and bondage being under the law of sin and death?

Scripture gives us the answer to this as well in Romans 8:1-4 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus “hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak “through the flesh,”God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

What we see in the above is walking after the flesh is serving sin and =being “under the law of sin and death.”

Thus when we are born again of the Spirit we are no longer walking in the lusts of the flesh. 

Notice what Paul says in Romans 8:9 “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
 

So it is the Spirit of Christ (the law of the Spirit of Life) that “makes us free” from the first nature and law that desires to walk in the flesh and serve sin.

Now some might say this does not mean we are set free from sin and death, just that we are set free from the law of God.
 

But that is not what is being said above by Paul. To what benefit would it serve to be only set free from a holy law, and not be made free from sin and death?

All that would amount to is a bunch of lawless sinners. Besides that, the Gentiles were never even under the Law of Moses to begin with, so how can you be set free from a law that you were never even under? Makes no sense. 

But the law that both Jews and Gentiles are firstborn “under,”is the “law of sin and death.”

Romans 3:9 “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are “all under sin;”

So hopefully you will see in this that it is sin you truly need to be “made free from,”because a servant of sin abides not in the house forever.

Peace and God bless

Really? We all “sin and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) 

The reason Jesus died was we cannot stop sinning, David even mentions hidden sins we so we are not aware of (Psalm 19:12-14)

I am thankful my sins are forgiven by Jesus and I do not have to try and be good enough, “I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die,” (Galatians 2:21) and that if I confess my sins Jesus forgives them, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9). 
 

Sure we do not have license to be wicked (Romans 6), but you either believe Jesus is the Savior and He alone cleanses you of sin or you don’t. I am thankful for God’s grace, because I know I can never be good enough. 

 

 

 

[TheBlade]

First just say WELCOME WOOT SpiritSong! 

I deleted my post. Well things are being said by one that are clearly un-true and if un-true a lie. So based on just what was said not to guess or speculate as some do here it seems one here does not understand flesh and spirit

I was talking about Rom 7 and to read "People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin". All he is doing is guessing and speculating. Totally does not understand for one key words in what Paul said was "I". There was no talk about Paul stuck in some sin what so ever. No talk about "a ongoing sin". So your like.. someone is not reading and just adding to what your trying to say and clearly don't understand..

Praise God..