Is praying to other saints considered a form of idolatry?

[com7fy8]

On 8/27/2023 at 3:27 PM, Tony17 said:

I'm not catholic but I stumbled upon many articles regarding whether praying to Mary and other saints is an act of idolatry. Some say yes and some say no. Matthew 4:10 says "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only." Doesn't this mean praying to saints is idolatry?

I suppose it can be.

But ones will say they are not "praying" to Mary, the same as they pray to God; but they claim they are seeking Mary and saints to help them reach God.

That would not be the same as worshiping them. But it could be misrepresenting God to be impersonal with His own children so we have to go through someone else in order to reach God.

Our Father loves each of us and is pleased to personally share with and communicate with each of us. So, He is willing to hear every one of us.

But what can matter is, how ready are we to hear Him and obey how He desires to care for us and bless us?

[farouk]

On 8/29/2023 at 9:54 AM, Mary8 said:

Yes, it is idolatry.   God gave us one mediator we can talk to, who hears us, our Lord Jesus.

I Timothy 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;..

Hi @Mary8 PS: As we focus on the Redeemer Himself, this is a good verse, also, I think: "Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer."

[TheBlade]

On 8/27/2023 at 3:09 PM, Anne2 said:

Yeah, making supplication to God for our behalf. If you do not know what they believe, how can you address it properly. So, best to be done with the topic then I suppose.

Moses did it for Pharaoh, Daniel did it for Israel, Elijah etc. 

I do not necessarily agree with it either, but I certainly don't know why to call it idolatry either.

Hi Anne2. What your saying is true yet which one of those was in heaven? Not one. God judging Israel I believe looked for one among them to build a wall to stand in the gap yet found none. Whats being talked about is say me praying to Paul or some other man aka Saint no different them any other believer in "heaven". We seek other men women of God that are strong in the faith here to reach GoD on our behalf believing God hears them yet not knowing He always hears us.

There is no scripture for praying to Saints. Oh we will quote the OT yet we leave out Christ saying "he's dead" and don't talk to the dead.  Now I can quote 1 Chor, Leviticus, Deut on and on. But in each case what will happen is "what that verse is really saying". It gets twisted. To read His word I always come away with seek Him only Him talk only to Him. Ask only Him. Yet some will not seek ask pray to Him but others that have no power no authority what so ever are not standing by GOD and Christ on their thrones in heaven. They could be but that's speculation and I will not do that.

I don't know what to say here. There is no one in my heart I would rather talk to. Its as if some don't know how much He loves them how He is for them how He always listens to them. OT NT talks about how He always hears answers the righteous. IF someone ever has as dream or a Saint pops up. Try this.. tell them to say "we were washed by the blood of Jesus Christ. Not one has ever done that. They flee.. that alone should tell you. 

I guess one has to read a book that has more added to it if you wish to believe this. But who would not want to seek ask the one that died for you that seeks you more then you do Him. Who is always listening. The song playing.. Jesus loves me this I know

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

On 9/4/2023 at 5:21 PM, com7fy8 said:

But ones will say they are not "praying" to Mary, the same as they pray to God; but they claim they are seeking Mary and saints to help them reach God.

That would not be the same as worshiping them.

Catholics "venerate" mary and dead saints... and venerate is to worship

No matter how one slices it, trying to contact the dead (those that have passed from this life) is a sin and if one does not turn away from their sin they will go to hell.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Anne2]

3 hours ago, TheBlade said:

Hi Anne2. What your saying is true yet which one of those was in heaven?

Not one.

Thanks for your reply Blade. They believe they are because of how they read Revelation.

3 hours ago, TheBlade said:

There is no scripture for praying to Saints.

It is their read of revelation

 

3 hours ago, TheBlade said:

Oh we will quote the OT yet we leave out Christ saying "he's dead" and don't talk to the dead. 

. As well as some other scriptures I think perhaps those that came out of their graves after Christ's resurrection and appeared to many in Jerusalem.

Mt 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mt 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 8:3  And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4  And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
What great tribulation?

Mt 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mth, is disagreed on as to timing of certain events by various Christians beyond Catholicism..

It is not that these things are not spoken of in scripture. It is how we understand them.

Nope I do not pray to Saints, Nope I am not Catholic. But that does not seem to matter much. Just being concerned in how we should speak to People, and about them is my concern, seems to be enough to target.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Anne2

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

If you are advocating for these people's erroneous beliefs... that is also sin.

Romans 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death (separation from God), not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Love would tell them the truth that what they are doing IS in fact sin, and then show them what God says in His Word.

This is the hard part about being a Christian because sometimes people you care about refuse to accept what God says... and we have to choose to either be loyal to the Lord or to people that are in opposition to Him.

[Anne2]

9 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

If you are advocating for these people's erroneous beliefs... that is also sin.

Stop! I am advocating addressing these people's beliefs, according to their beliefs. What they say, not what others say about them. That makes me sinning?

You know, how would you feel, or think  about someone saying you believed things you don't? Or grossly misunderstanding what you believe? Then  to want to correct you? That often times is called a straw man. Now you want to speak about me, who does not do those things because I do not accept those things as sinning? 

Go ahead for all I care, address them for what they believe. I think they would feel more loved maybe? I don't want to bicker over this kind of stuff anymore. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Anne2

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

17 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

I am advocating addressing these people's beliefs, according to their beliefs.

That's a problem IF you claim to be a Christian.

Christians advocate for what the Lord says because we care about others and don't want to see them go to hell.

Their beliefs don't agree with what the Lord says... so if you really love these people you would tell them what the Lord says.

 

[JohnD]

On 8/27/2023 at 2:41 PM, Anne2 said:

Catholics, look at it no differently than you or I asking someone to pray for us. There is even a forum on here for that. 

Jas 5:16  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

This verse does not apply to praying to the dead.

Prayer can be conversational (though most often one-sided). It can be a comfort to speak to a passed on loved one, for example. They cannot hear us of course. And we cannot hear them unless a special except is made by the LORD. Consider the rich man's request in Luke 16:19-31. Someone had to be sent back to Earth (the land of the living)to warn his brothers.  They could not call out to them from the grave.

There is an element of worship and submission in prayer... and that's where it gets complicated. As a boy who lost his father to leukemia, I often "spoke" to my Dad while standing at his grave site. I was in grief, I was confused, I longed to hear his voice, see his face, feel his embrace... but I expected no reply and I was not in submission or worship of him. I would not even say I honored him, for all my conversations over the empty tomb with my Dad's name on it were selfish, needy.

As long as it is not to venerate, extol, worship, praise I personally do not see the problem with blowing off emotional steam to a passed loved one. But to single out prominent individuals in the faith, or sports, or politics, or whatever is in fact adulation and that only God is entitled to. And to bow before statutes is described in the Bible as idolatry.

It is no surprise that these forms of paganism are among the many others in Roman Catholicism.

The very founding of Roman Catholicism was to conquer rather than convert. Unlike its claims, it is not tied to the Apostle Peter in Matthew 16:18 but is in fact a 10th Century CE  eventual outcome of the hijacking of Christianity beginning under Emperor Constantine in 313 CE when he declared Christianity legal is the Empire. That eventuality was the Roman Empire itself morphing into Roman Catholicism. The empire that collapsed was just an empty shell. The adder had already hatched. Instead of an emperor there is now a pope. Instead of a senate, the body of cardinals. Instead of regional governors, bishops. And the capital city of Roman Catholicism is suspiciously near Rome...

Part of the imperial conquest of the Roman Catholic Empire is to inculcate certain pagan practices of those who are conquered. The Christmas tree to appease the Druids, the yule log to appease Middle eastern pagans (stemming as far back as Nimrod), mistletoe, easter eggs and bunnies (fertility cults)... under the auspices of "Christianizing" these people.

I firmly believe Constantine is the fulfillment of:

Revelation 6:2 (KJV)
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Having the bow of imperial authority but without force (no arrows) he legalized Christianity which up to that point was being brutally persecuted (which the Roman Catholics repeated against the Protestants see Foxe's Book of Martyrs for details). 

Constantine's mother Helena undertook setting yup the rules for the "Christian" religion of State in those days. This is how we ended up with the Church of the Holy sepulcher (no evidence for its location or the garden tomb) and Mount Sinai in the wrong location (Galatians states it is actually in Arabia see Galatians 4:25) ← there is archaeological evidence at Jabal Al Lawz in Saudi Arabia btw

Etc. etc.

Roman Catholicism has placed upon Mary the mother of Jesus the status as the Mother of God (which is a variation of the Queen of Heaven cult that goes back as far as Jeremiah and even Nimrod). Mary was a virgin before the divine embryo of the Jesus was placed in her womb by the Holy Spirit. She bore and raised the Christ child. She is the most blessed mother of all. But she is not divine, nor does she occupy a throne next to Jesus as coredemptrix, she was not perpetually a virgin (for the act of child birth itself changed that status). She is blessed by God and a most humble human being (submitting to take on the great burden of her contemporaries' suspicions as well as watching her Son die a most brutal death on the cross). But she is not to be worshipped or venerated.

Again, the worship of Mary is the retooling of the Roman Catholic Church of the Queen of Heaven cult.

Mary also gave sons and daughters to Joseph (Mark 6:3, Mark 3:313-32).

Best to avoid / leave Roman Catholicism period!

 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

My question is why would you pray to anyone other than God? People ( even ones in Heaven ) can't answer our prayers, only God has that power, so why pray to people?