Transgression of Israel still prevails now until the 70th week of Daniel is finished

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

So, if someone is going to make a statement that the 7 years are thrown 2000 years in the future (along with their contention that “he” is “he” and not “HE,” as well as a few other issues, I would hope they would offer their “supporting thoughts.”

But I don’t believe I ever receive anything more than a “conclusion or statement.”

Thank you for presenting your case and for such a comprehensive reply. To answer you point by point would explode the Forum. All I can offer is a brief overview with my supporting verses. In your numbered points you have not offered scriptures, and I find none myself that can support your wording. For instance, you maintain that the goal of the seventy weeks is the restoration of the destruction by Babylon. But where is this even named in the whole Bible. You also maintain that Daniel is a book on salvation. Where is that stated? You make a claim that the 12 Chapters are seamless, but it cannot be for 2 to 7 are written to  Foreign kings about their Kingdoms in the language of the day - Aramaic. Then, in an abrupt change of direction, the book deals with "Daniel's People" in the Hebrew language.

It is true that the word "AFTER" (69 weeks) could mean much later in regard to the Messiah being cut off. But the Bible usually means "when completed". Jesus was raised "AFTER" three days does not mean a week, a month or a years later. It means, when the three days were completed. So your understanding of "AFTER 69 weeks" is not supported.

Then, your understanding of the "He" is not supported by the grammar. Here is verse 26;

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

"... and the people" - a certain Nation

"of the Prince that shall come" - sometime AFTER Messiah a Prince will come, and he will have the nationality of the "people who destroy the city and the sanctuary". Since the first Temple did not exist anymore as Daniel wrote, he must have been talking about Zerubbabel's Temple. This was destroyed by the Romans. So the Prince who was yet to come must be a Roman.

"desolations are determined to the end of the war" -  The war has an end, but during it the city and sanctuary lie desolate. But the next verse, verse 27 speaks of the resumption of the daily oblation. the daily oblation is part of the Law of Moses but can only be sacrificed if there is a Temple and altar. So the implication is that the state of war and desolation caused by the Romans will have an end and a new Temple must stand. At this time a Prince, who s a Roman, will come.

Verse 27 continues;

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"And HE ... " - according to the grammar it means "HE the Roman Prince".

"shall confirm" - literally "strengthen"

"THE Covenant ... " The article is implied as the capable translators, under peer pressure, agreed upon. The article makes it an ESTABLISHED Covenant that needed strengthening. And the result is the daily oblation. Now, there is only ONE COVENANT on earth and in history that has the daily oblation - The Covenant of Sinai which has, as its content, the Law of Moses.

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" - There is only one reason for this ending of sacrifices. the Roman Prince wants to direct ALL WORSHIP to himself. This is confirmed in Revelation and 2nd Thessalonians 2. the result is that a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, made by Jews for Messiah, is made "desolate" by an imposter - an ABOMINATION to the Lord. And this is the ONE SINGLE SIGN that is given to the Church in Matthew 24 - The Fig Tree with blossoming leaves - works of the Law. It is not 1948 and Israel that is meant, but when they have a Temple that the Law might be fulfilled - the daily oblation.

I have simply followed the grammar. It is not obscure. I have added nothing.

 

[other one]

18 hours ago, believeinHim said:

your link says, 'christinprophecy'. is this the correct way to pronounce Christin, or is it missing an a?

That is saying Christ in prophecy.  There can't be any spaces in a URL so it just comes out that way.

[Charlie744]

On 4/10/2024 at 5:10 AM, AdHoc said:

Thank you for presenting your case and for such a comprehensive reply. To answer you point by point would explode the Forum. All I can offer is a brief overview with my supporting verses. In your numbered points you have not offered scriptures, and I find none myself that can support your wording. For instance, you maintain that the goal of the seventy weeks is the restoration of the destruction by Babylon. But where is this even named in the whole Bible. You also maintain that Daniel is a book on salvation. Where is that stated? You make a claim that the 12 Chapters are seamless, but it cannot be for 2 to 7 are written to  Foreign kings about their Kingdoms in the language of the day - Aramaic. Then, in an abrupt change of direction, the book deals with "Daniel's People" in the Hebrew language.

It is true that the word "AFTER" (69 weeks) could mean much later in regard to the Messiah being cut off. But the Bible usually means "when completed". Jesus was raised "AFTER" three days does not mean a week, a month or a years later. It means, when the three days were completed. So your understanding of "AFTER 69 weeks" is not supported.

Then, your understanding of the "He" is not supported by the grammar. Here is verse 26;

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

"... and the people" - a certain Nation

"of the Prince that shall come" - sometime AFTER Messiah a Prince will come, and he will have the nationality of the "people who destroy the city and the sanctuary". Since the first Temple did not exist anymore as Daniel wrote, he must have been talking about Zerubbabel's Temple. This was destroyed by the Romans. So the Prince who was yet to come must be a Roman.

"desolations are determined to the end of the war" -  The war has an end, but during it the city and sanctuary lie desolate. But the next verse, verse 27 speaks of the resumption of the daily oblation. the daily oblation is part of the Law of Moses but can only be sacrificed if there is a Temple and altar. So the implication is that the state of war and desolation caused by the Romans will have an end and a new Temple must stand. At this time a Prince, who s a Roman, will come.

Verse 27 continues;

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"And HE ... " - according to the grammar it means "HE the Roman Prince".

"shall confirm" - literally "strengthen"

"THE Covenant ... " The article is implied as the capable translators, under peer pressure, agreed upon. The article makes it an ESTABLISHED Covenant that needed strengthening. And the result is the daily oblation. Now, there is only ONE COVENANT on earth and in history that has the daily oblation - The Covenant of Sinai which has, as its content, the Law of Moses.

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" - There is only one reason for this ending of sacrifices. the Roman Prince wants to direct ALL WORSHIP to himself. This is confirmed in Revelation and 2nd Thessalonians 2. the result is that a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, made by Jews for Messiah, is made "desolate" by an imposter - an ABOMINATION to the Lord. And this is the ONE SINGLE SIGN that is given to the Church in Matthew 24 - The Fig Tree with blossoming leaves - works of the Law. It is not 1948 and Israel that is meant, but when they have a Temple that the Law might be fulfilled - the daily oblation.

I have simply followed the grammar. It is not obscure. I have added nothing.

 

Thank you very much for your response. I too feel that a complete response to all of the “issues / claims” would demand a “lengthy book” to fully explain… and that is exactly why I wanted to offer the commentary free of charge.

It is impossible not only to try and explain such difficult topics but I have no chance of doing that when “today’s accepted interpretations” are so firmly established.

It is not unusual to respond to a question that will generate a number of additional questions- whether it is due to an actual difference in interpretation or in the manner the response was written- usually both.

So, what I would ask of you is to take ONE issue that you disagree with and we can focus on it alone. 
 

First, the verses I used came almost exclusively out of Daniel. Daniel DOES teach Daniel. So, we have access and the exact set of the 12 chapters. Therefore, everything will come down to how each of us interprets a particular word, term or the timing of an event. But one thing is for sure, God is presenting a story that is consistent, true, and does not conflict with itself. It is for us to try and find His revelations and purposes within these verses. 
 

If you would like to select ONE issue to discuss of the many, that would be great. 

Thanks, Charlie 

 

 

 

[AdHoc]

31 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you very much for your response. I too feel that a complete response to all of the “issues / claims” would demand a “lengthy book” to fully explain… and that is exactly why I wanted to offer the commentary free of charge.

It is impossible not only to try and explain such difficult topics but I have no chance of doing that when “today’s accepted interpretations” are so firmly established.

It is not unusual to respond to a question that will generate a number of additional questions- whether it is due to an actual difference in interpretation or in the manner the response was written- usually both.

So, what I would ask of you is to take ONE issue that you disagree with and we can focus on it alone. 
 

First, the verses I used came almost exclusively out of Daniel. Daniel DOES teach Daniel. So, we have access and the exact set of the 12 chapters. Therefore, everything will come down to how each of us interprets a particular word, term or the timing of an event. But one thing is for sure, God is presenting a story that is consistent, true, and does not conflict with itself. It is for us to try and find His revelations and purposes within these verses. 
 

If you would like to select ONE issue to discuss of the many, that would be great. 

Thanks, Charlie 

 

 

 

I think that the events of the book are so intertwined that even one point might provoke much writing. Here is a text. In its Nebuchadnezzar's dream. From the text and the grammar, do you side with the school of thought that makes five kingdoms or four.

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

I'll be up front and go with four. My reasons are as follows;
1. Verse 38 makes a single Kingdom of Gold
2. Verse 39 makes the following kingdom of silver and brass
3. Then comes the Kingdom of IRON in verse 40
4. Then comes not a new kingdom because (i) the iron remains throughout, (ii) it only adds clay to an existing element, (iii) verse 41 says  of this dual setup, "this Kingdom", and (iv) the Kingdom that our Lord replaces with His Kingdom crushes the iron. If the clay signified a new kingdom, then, them being consecutive kingdoms, would cause an absurdity because the iron is still there.

History, although not conclusive, has present day Rome alive and well as a player in international affairs. The Treaty of Rome regulates th EU, the Club of Rome regulates international environmental matters. And there are about another 45 international organizations regulated in Rome. Added to this Latin is still used in Law and Medicine. When one considers that Rome fixed Hitler, Lenin and Trotsky in place, it sure looks like Rome is the fourth and final kingdom - just with a democratic addition.

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I think that the events of the book are so intertwined that even one point might provoke much writing. Here is a text. In its Nebuchadnezzar's dream. From the text and the grammar, do you side with the school of thought that makes five kingdoms or four.

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

First, I am grateful that you have chosen to begin this exercise with chapter 2! If chapter 2 is misinterpreted then most of Daniel will be misinterpreted and as with so many of “today’s accepted interpretations” they have been thrown some 2000 years into the future (however, this BEGAN as an intentional misinterpretation from the work of the little horn (papacy) in the late 16th century and has been taught to each generation since then. 

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

I'll be up front and go with four. My reasons are as follows;

Certainly agree, there are only 4 kingdoms. But as I look down I do not believe we will agree on the identity of the four.

1. Verse 38 makes a single Kingdom of Gold

Yes- Babylon.

2. Verse 39 makes the following kingdom of silver and brass

No, the Medes-Persia was the second kingdom who took possession of Babylon- by Cyrus and he gave the rulership over to Darius (head of Medes).

The second kingdom was destroyed by Alexander of Greece some years later. He represents the brass kingdom. 

3. Then comes the Kingdom of IRON in verse 40

The fourth and final kingdom is Rome. They are represented by iron legs and feet. They were the ruling empire at the time of the Messiah. 

 

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

4. Then comes not a new kingdom because (i) the iron remains throughout, (ii) it only adds clay to an existing element, (iii) verse 41 says  of this dual setup, "this Kingdom", and (iv) the Kingdom that our Lord replaces with His Kingdom crushes the iron. If the clay signified a new kingdom, then, them being consecutive kingdoms, would cause an absurdity because the iron is still there.

Okay, here is where MY interpretations will significantly depart from EVERYONE. And it has to depart AT THIS POINT OTHERWISE the rest of Daniel (Hebrew chapters) would not / could not offer a consistent set of interpretations. But before we move to the rest of chapter 2, it might be appropriate to stop and discuss the 4 kingdoms. 
 

 

TO BE DISCUSSED LATER

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

History, although not conclusive, has present day Rome alive and well as a player in international affairs. The Treaty of Rome regulates th EU, the Club of Rome regulates international environmental matters. And there are about another 45 international organizations regulated in Rome. Added to this Latin is still used in Law and Medicine. When one considers that Rome fixed Hitler, Lenin and Trotsky in place, it sure looks like Rome is the fourth and final kingdom - just with a democratic addition.

 

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think that the events of the book are so intertwined that even one point might provoke much writing. Here is a text. In its Nebuchadnezzar's dream. From the text and the grammar, do you side with the school of thought that makes five kingdoms or four.

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

I'll be up front and go with four. My reasons are as follows;
1. Verse 38 makes a single Kingdom of Gold
2. Verse 39 makes the following kingdom of silver and brass
3. Then comes the Kingdom of IRON in verse 40
4. Then comes not a new kingdom because (i) the iron remains throughout, (ii) it only adds clay to an existing element, (iii) verse 41 says  of this dual setup, "this Kingdom", and (iv) the Kingdom that our Lord replaces with His Kingdom crushes the iron. If the clay signified a new kingdom, then, them being consecutive kingdoms, would cause an absurdity because the iron is still there.

History, although not conclusive, has present day Rome alive and well as a player in international affairs. The Treaty of Rome regulates th EU, the Club of Rome regulates international environmental matters. And there are about another 45 international organizations regulated in Rome. Added to this Latin is still used in Law and Medicine. When one considers that Rome fixed Hitler, Lenin and Trotsky in place, it sure looks like Rome is the fourth and final kingdom - just with a democratic addition.

Okay, I am going to make some comments about chapter 2 while you might be preparing your response re: the identity of the 4 kingdoms.

And please understand these are truly new interpretations that took over 5 years to line up and discover. 
 

Big picture- chapter 2 is the “BLUEPRINT” for God’s prophecies that will be given in the remaining Hebrew chapters. In chapter 2, He provides us with the “Dream Sequence”s verses and after that He gives us the “Interpretation Sequence” verses. These are NOT chronological verses but provide the “details” that are found or will occur WITHIN the “Dream  Sequence” verses. This is a method or model He will use also in the later chapters. 
 

BLUEPRINT 

1) Verses 2:31-35 provide the “Dream Sequence” of verses explaining the 4 and ONLY 4 kingdoms within the metal man image. These 4 will never change throughout the Book of Daniel OR for the period up to His second coming. 
 

  a) verse 2:32 is the 1st kingdom- head of gold- Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon,

   b) verse 2:32 also reveals the 2nd kingdom of silver with a chest and arms of silver, 

   c) verse 2:32 also tells us the 3rd kingdom will be of brass, represented by the belly and thighs,

    d) verse 2:33 tells us the 4th kingdom will be a kingdom with legs of iron and the feet will be of iron and clay. 
 

So these are the identities of the 4 kingdoms ESTABLISHED IN THE DREAM SEQUENCE (they are fixed and will never change). 
 

But that is not the end of the chapter 2 “Dream Sequence” verses. God will now provide 2 and only 2 ACTIONS that will take place concerning these 4 kingdoms ( Remember, this is HIS STORY NOT OURS - meaning it will not and does not have to match the actual historical events or actors we could find within our history books. God will include and exclude whatever He wants or needs  HIS PROPHETIC STORY to get His messages across. This is one of the most important discrepancies in “today’s accepted interpretations”- all the commentators try and match these verses to OUR HISTORY BOOKS in order to try and confirm their interpretations).

Now, the 2 actions that will be given to us in this chapter 2 BLUEPRINT, which covers the entire period from 606 BC to His second coming (later chapters will repeat and enlarge on chapter 2). 
 

   a) verse 2:34 is when the Stone (Messiah) will strike the feet (not the toes) and break apart (not destroy) the iron and clay. This represents the first significant act in the history of mankind- this represents the arrival of Jesus when He will symbolically break apart the clay (His people) that are held or captive within the Roman Empire- the 4th kingdom. This is NOT an end time event AD EVERYONE DECLARES! It is His 1st coming. The purpose of this “breaking apart” the iron and the clay is to separate those elements. Those Jews who would come to accept Him as their Messiah would be later (within the “Interpretation Sequence” verses) as “Pottery Clay,” because God could use them after the Cross and they would preach the Good News to the world. Those Jews who reject Him would later be identified as “Ceramic clay” because their heart was hardened and they could not accept Him as their Messiah. In Jeremiah, the Lord is referred to as “the Potter,” and He can choose those He wants to fulfill His plan of salvation. 
 

  b) verse 2:35, however, DOES represent the end times when He will return and separate the goats from the sheep. In this verse God specifically uses the symbol of the “threshing floor” when He will destroy all of the “elements” (everything and everyone that rejected Him over the past 2000 years).

Now, that only represents the “big picture” - the MAJOR structure, if you will, of the entire plan of salvation for mankind. 
 

It is absolutely critical to understand this “blueprint.” 

After you have time to consider THIS BLUEPRINT , we can move on to the “Interpretation Sequence” (details) verses of chapter 2. 
 

Again, these are TRULY NEW INTERPRETATIONS so we can take our time with them… 
 

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Okay, I am going to make some comments about chapter 2 while you might be preparing your response re: the identity of the 4 kingdoms.

And please understand these are truly new interpretations that took over 5 years to line up and discover. 
 

Big picture- chapter 2 is the “BLUEPRINT” for God’s prophecies that will be given in the remaining Hebrew chapters. In chapter 2, He provides us with the “Dream Sequence”s verses and after that He gives us the “Interpretation Sequence” verses. These are NOT chronological verses but provide the “details” that are found or will occur WITHIN the “Dream  Sequence” verses. This is a method or model He will use also in the later chapters. 
 

BLUEPRINT 

1) Verses 2:31-35 provide the “Dream Sequence” of verses explaining the 4 and ONLY 4 kingdoms within the metal man image. These 4 will never change throughout the Book of Daniel OR for the period up to His second coming. 
 

  a) verse 2:32 is the 1st kingdom- head of gold- Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon,

   b) verse 2:32 also reveals the 2nd kingdom of silver with a chest and arms of silver, 

   c) verse 2:32 also tells us the 3rd kingdom will be of brass, represented by the belly and thighs,

    d) verse 2:33 tells us the 4th kingdom will be a kingdom with legs of iron and the feet will be of iron and clay. 
 

So these are the identities of the 4 kingdoms ESTABLISHED IN THE DREAM SEQUENCE (they are fixed and will never change). 
 

But that is not the end of the chapter 2 “Dream Sequence” verses. God will now provide 2 and only 2 ACTIONS that will take place concerning these 4 kingdoms ( Remember, this is HIS STORY NOT OURS - meaning it will not and does not have to match the actual historical events or actors we could find within our history books. God will include and exclude whatever He wants or needs  HIS PROPHETIC STORY to get His messages across. This is one of the most important discrepancies in “today’s accepted interpretations”- all the commentators try and match these verses to OUR HISTORY BOOKS in order to try and confirm their interpretations).

Now, the 2 actions that will be given to us in this chapter 2 BLUEPRINT, which covers the entire period from 606 BC to His second coming (later chapters will repeat and enlarge on chapter 2). 
 

   a) verse 2:34 is when the Stone (Messiah) will strike the feet (not the toes) and break apart (not destroy) the iron and clay. This represents the first significant act in the history of mankind- this represents the arrival of Jesus when He will symbolically break apart the clay (His people) that are held or captive within the Roman Empire- the 4th kingdom. This is NOT an end time event AD EVERYONE DECLARES! It is His 1st coming. The purpose of this “breaking apart” the iron and the clay is to separate those elements. Those Jews who would come to accept Him as their Messiah would be later (within the “Interpretation Sequence” verses) as “Pottery Clay,” because God could use them after the Cross and they would preach the Good News to the world. Those Jews who reject Him would later be identified as “Ceramic clay” because their heart was hardened and they could not accept Him as their Messiah. In Jeremiah, the Lord is referred to as “the Potter,” and He can choose those He wants to fulfill His plan of salvation. 
 

  b) verse 2:35, however, DOES represent the end times when He will return and separate the goats from the sheep. In this verse God specifically uses the symbol of the “threshing floor” when He will destroy all of the “elements” (everything and everyone that rejected Him over the past 2000 years).

Now, that only represents the “big picture” - the MAJOR structure, if you will, of the entire plan of salvation for mankind. 
 

It is absolutely critical to understand this “blueprint.” 

After you have time to consider THIS BLUEPRINT , we can move on to the “Interpretation Sequence” (details) verses of chapter 2. 
 

Again, these are TRULY NEW INTERPRETATIONS so we can take our time with them… 
 

Okay. I can immediately see why you come to a different conclusion. You have the little stone breaking apart the iron and the clay to separate them. I read;

 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

1. The feet were made of both iron and clay (v.34)
2. The clay is not separated but broken in pieces
3. The iron and clay became as chaff and "no place was found for them"

But even if we could come to some sort of agreement, your next statement would divide us again. As Messiah our Lord Jesus was rejected nationally by Israel. Their Temple, City and Nation was made desolate. Israel was scattered among all Nations. Our Lord Jesus is, from Matthew Chapter 12, not "brethren" to Israel as He denies His mother and brothers and sisters. For the bulk of the Church age there is no Nation to be Messiah to. The term "Messianic Jew" is vain because the New man IN Christ has no Jew nor Greek (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11). It is a New Creature and its history is wiped out (2nd Cor.5:17). In the worldly system made by men, a Believer might have an Israeli Passport, but we speak here not about how men perceive things but how God does. His words and explanations annul those of men.

Then yet another anomaly (for me at least) arises. The grammar of Chapter 2 indicates the Lord destroying KINGDOMS. And that in itself is doubly confirmed in that the Kingdoms are consecutive but are destroyed together. That is, in verse 39 it says; "AFTER THEE ... " This implies that Nebuchadnezzar's KINGDOM would be ENDED. Then would the next appear. How is it possible to destroy KINGDOMS that do not exist, seeing as all Kingdoms are destroyed?? They cannot be the same Kingdom, they cannot have the same government, they cannot have the same political system because (i) they were "inferior", (ii) designated by another element, and (iii) the Bible shows Nebuchadnezzar an Autocrat while the Persians were Aristocrats. If these difficulties are brought up, your understanding becomes exponentially more difficult to sell.

I hope not to be negative, and I too hold minority views, so I'm aware of the difficulty of selling a new idea, or, not-so-new idea but one that has been generally rejected. And I am keenly aware that I could be wrong and have missed the whole meaning. But I must go by the plain wording and grammar until it creates an absurdity. Finally, though I don't agree with your view, I appreciate your diligent studies and your courage to bring in something new.

God bless.

[Charlie744]

59 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Okay. I can immediately see why you come to a different conclusion. You have the little stone breaking apart the iron and the clay to separate them. I read;

 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

1. The feet were made of both iron and clay (v.34)

 

Yes. The iron feet was the same element as the feet - it is the 4th kingdom of Rome. This is the only kingdom with a different element found within it- and it is the only non- metal element. 
 
The “clay” is found in the OT to represent His people and the Lord as the “Potter.” 
 

Rome was a conquering nation and subjected ALL to their power and authority. They did not bring others into their Empire, they RULED over everyone. 

59 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

2. The clay is not separated but broken in pieces

Agreed, but the message is the same. It BROKE APART or it BROKE INTO PIECES the two elements. God did not come to “destroy” but to “divide.” He, the Messiah, the STONE refers to His FIRST COMING. He is the ROCK, He is the CORNERSTONE. He was “CUT OUT OF THE MOUNTAIN. All of these terms speak to His FIRST coming. 

 

59 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

3. The iron and clay became as chaff and "no place was found for them"

 

Now, you are bring in 2:35. As I mentioned earlier, the “threshing floor” scene is one at the END of the harvest. Jesus did not come to gather His people to be with Him forever. 
 

EVERYONE has treated 2:34 AND 2:35 as one and the same event. Further, they have treated BOTH AS END TIME EVENTS. But they are two separate events- His first and second coming separated by 2000 years. Remember, chapter 2 is the BLUEPRINT- this is when God establishes the grand plan of His plan of salvation for the world. Chapter 2 is when He establishes the 4 and only 4 kingdoms WITHIN HIS PLAN (as opposed to the many in our history books). It also establishes the “borders and boundaries” for each of the 4 kingdoms and by using completely different metals and major sections of a man tells us they are indeed separate, distinct and DO NOT BLEED OVER INTO THE NEXT KINGDOM (restrictions and guidelines for us to ensure our later interpretations in Daniel, despite using very different symbols, STAY WITHIN THESE ESTABLISHED “BORDERS AND BOUNDARIES.” Without these “rules” if you will, we will AND INDEED HAVE “ADDED” to His Word. We have brought in other “ACTORS AND NATIONS OR POWERS” not found in chapter 2. 

Unless 2:34 and 2:35 represent His first and second coming, and unless we look at His first coming includes the “breaking apart” those of His people not only from the clutches of Rome, but “apart” from those of His people that would not accept Him as their Messiah, His church could not have been born. 
 

God had selected or chosen these people to reveal He was the one and only God and to preach this to the Gentiles of the world. They failed in their mission and kept Him to themselves. Now, God would NEED to come and separate those of His people that He could use to preach the Good News. Symbolically, this is exactly what is meant by these verses. 

 

59 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

But even if we could come to some sort of agreement, your next statement would divide us again. As Messiah our Lord Jesus was rejected nationally by Israel. Their Temple, City and Nation was made desolate. Israel was scattered among all Nations. Our Lord Jesus is, from Matthew Chapter 12, not "brethren" to Israel as He denies His mother and brothers and sisters. For the bulk of the Church age there is no Nation to be Messiah to. The term "Messianic Jew" is vain because the New man IN Christ has no Jew nor Greek (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11). It is a New Creature and its history is wiped out (2nd Cor.5:17). In the worldly system made by men, a Believer might have an Israeli Passport, but we speak here not about how men perceive things but how God does. His words and explanations annul those of men.

Sorry, I do not understand what or how these comments speak to these verses and His mission. 
 

Yes, He was rejected $ This was in His plan since the foundation of the world. He came to offer His sacrifice in the cross… 
 

59 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Then yet another anomaly (for me at least) arises. The grammar of Chapter 2 indicates the Lord destroying KINGDOMS. And that in itself is doubly confirmed in that the Kingdoms are consecutive but are destroyed together.
 

No, the grammar will be treated very differently if they are interpreted as two very different events. Nothings specifically tells us that 2:34 and 2:35 end time events or they represent the same end time event. In fact, the language chosen within each verse is more convincing the first is His first coming as it speaks to His mission while 2:35 speaks to the end of things. 
 

If both are the same event and timing- end time events, that also means that almost the rest of the prophecies in Daniel are ALSO end time events (and many have treated them as such). But chapters 7,8 ,9 and 11 are not yet still to come events. 

They all represent God’s way of “repeat and enlarging” on the BLUEPRINT found in chapter 2. 
 

Again, EVERYONE treats 2:34 as an end time event but no one has asked how and why were the iron and clay broken apart! God did not need to FIRST break the iron and the clay into pieces BEFORE the “threshing floor” scene at the end of time. He is coming as our King and not as our suffering servant. He was one and the same as God - “He was cut out of the mountain.” At the end time, He will come as God - the mountain. 
 

It took quite a bit of time to even ask my this question during my study. I had not challenged that these two verses were NOT the same but too many problems / inconsistencies remained in the later chapters of Daniel because of this interpretation. THIS ONE VERSE AND TREATING IT AD HIS FIRST COMING CHANGED EVERYTHING. The verses in 7,8,9 and 11 which COULD NOT BE RECONCILED to the other prophetic interpretations found within “today’s  interpretations.” The TIMING prevented a consistent storyline of the events that actually took place at the time of the Messiah. 
 

 

59 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

That is, in verse 39 it says; "AFTER THEE ... " This implies that Nebuchadnezzar's KINGDOM would be ENDED. Then would the next appear. How is it possible to destroy KINGDOMS that do not exist, seeing as all Kingdoms are destroyed??

Exactly! You can’t! The 4 kingdoms are consecutive and each will be conquered by the next. The ONLY time the 4 kingdoms will be destroyed is AT THE TIME OF THE END (2:35). Until then, then, there will be a lot of living and dying taken place. 
 

The “breaking into pieces or the breaking apart” refer to the two elements in the 4th kingdom ONLY. The Stone did not break apart the first 3 kingdoms- each of the first 3 kingdoms were already conquered BEFORE the Stone struck the feet. Verse 2:34 was specifically an event that would occur only WITHIN the 4th kingdom of Rome (the clay was not part of Rome- the “kingdom.” The clay was His people captive WITHIN that kingdom. Totally new way of interpreting these verses than “today’s accepted interpretations.” But to be candid, this is nothing- yet!

 

59 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

They cannot be the same Kingdom, they cannot have the same government, they cannot have the same political system because (i) they were "inferior", (ii) designated by another element, and (iii) the Bible shows Nebuchadnezzar an Autocrat while the Persians were Aristocrats. If these difficulties are brought up, your understanding becomes exponentially more difficult to sell.

First, I will repeat myself, there is no way that 2:34 can be an end time event and in no way can it speak to the destruction of the first 3 kingdoms or destroy the entire image. All of Daniel in the coming chapters had to take place DURING the times of these 4 kingdoms- not still yet to come! 

59 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I hope not to be negative, and I too hold minority views, so I'm aware of the difficulty of selling a new idea, or, not-so-new idea but one that has been generally rejected. And I am keenly aware that I could be wrong and have missed the whole meaning. But I must go by the plain wording and grammar until it creates an absurdity. Finally, though I don't agree with your view, I appreciate your diligent studies and your courage to bring in something new.

God bless.

No problem at all. I have learned just how  it is for almost anyone to not only come to accept a new interpretation, but to even agree to receive or listen to a new one. People don’t work like that. 
 

For over 400 years the RCC has taught the 7 year tribulation theory, they have intentionally thrown so much of Daniel into the still to come future…. 
 

The only thing I ask is if you would step back before you evaluate these new interpretations. It took 5 long years to unpack Daniel and I had no prior knowledge of Daniel. I thought at the beginning I would simply read and learn all the tremendous work the scholars, academics and theologians have done on Daniel. But when I saw there was no consistent, the fence posts of their own interpretations did not link up, when even they did not agree with each other I knew I should try and interpret Daniel USING THEIR INTERPRETATIONS to accept, reject or determine there is another way. Today, almost all people “parrot” their interpretations and would not challenge them - why? They are “accepted”. 
 

I do believe that if we continue this exercise you will see or understand very new interpretations that might be accepted. 
 

Thanks, look forward to hearing from you again, Charlie 

[AdHoc]

On 4/12/2024 at 5:28 PM, Charlie744 said:

Yes. The iron feet was the same element as the feet - it is the 4th kingdom of Rome. This is the only kingdom with a different element found within it- and it is the only non- metal element. 
 
The “clay” is found in the OT to represent His people and the Lord as the “Potter.”

The red emphasis I posted does not say "iron" only. It says the feet of this empire were "iron AND clay". And the destruction was of the feet (iron AND clay). I understand "clay" to mean mankind. The clay is Part of the fourth empire as opposed to God's people. Christ is not predicted to destroy His people when Rome rules. He is predicted to save them.

If the prophecy uses elements to describe them, and clay is God's people, why were thy not in all four Kingdoms? Israel was captive at the time of Nebuchadnezzar. The only reason to change elements is contained in the text. This defines the gold.

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold

That is, Nebuchadnezzar's system of rule - Religious Autocracy - is the best system. The other Kingdoms were "inferior". God too is designated by gold. What have Jehovah and Nebuchadnezzar in common. Both were absolute Monarchs. Both claimed divinity. Both were Autocrats. The elements then in this case must mean TYPES of GOVERNMENT. Cyrus must ask his nobles and the nobles made laws. This is rule by ARISTOCRACY and is "inferior". Greece's rule was MILITARY and is "inferior" to Aristocracy. "Iron" is Rome's type of Government and again the text explains.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Christ's system of rule in the millennium will be the same - the rule of the rod of iron. The "rod" stands for "correction" and "chastisement". Iron, unlike steel, which is strong but flexible, is unbending and strong. Because Christ has co-kings (Rev.20:1-4) His rule is one of SUBJUGATION by local government (1st Cor.15:24), not autocracy. So also the New Jerusalem. It is rule with co-kings and so only the city is gold - not the whole Kingdom (which includes the Nations and the Lake of Fire). But the "inferiority" is dome away with because it is not only a government, but it is governed by men and women with Christ's LIFE. This elevates the standard of rule to Christ's standard.

The promise to Abraham was that "all the families of earth would be blessed". Not - "all men will be saved". That is, the stone that fills the whole earth is a GOVERNMENT that brings  order, justice, instant retribution and the lifting of curses to all mankind. But the Church is called "Little flock". Israel is a "little Nation". Of the Church, "many are called but FEW are chosen". The stone of Christ's Kingdom starts "small". It is Christ's KINGDOM that fills the earth and not the Church.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The red emphasis I posted does not say "iron" only. It says the feet of this empire were "iron AND clay". And the destruction was of the feet (iron AND clay). I understand "clay" to mean mankind. The clay is Part of the fourth empire as opposed to God's people. Christ is not predicted to destroy His people when Rome rules. He is predicted to save them.

Okay and thanks. 

1) I believe the kingdoms are defined by the type of metal- revealing there are 4 distinct kingdoms. 
 
2) the clay is never “one” with the iron kingdom of Rome. The Stone would strike the feet and “break them” into pieces. This is because they (iron and clay elements) can / could never be joined together (they would never  to one another). 
 

3) I don’t think they refer at all to mean “mankind.” Daniel is written to and for His people and His city. The entire OT includes many peoples and nations but everything is running through His people.

4) The striking of the feet was not to “destroy” but to “break apart” and this also means the two elements are not “as one” truly combined kingdom. 
 

5) God identified His people (not Gentile or pagans) in the OT as “clay.” God also is identified as the “Potter.”

6) God is saving them. Not in the manner they expected- come as a conquering king to battle the Romans, but spiritually as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. 
 

7) God is showing us that His people will be back in their home (Jerusalem) and is captive to  Romans. This is symbolically appropriate since they will still not become part of the Roman Empire (iron) but continue to be separate and unlike any other people ever mentioned / found in any of the 4 kingdoms. God had clearly chosen them as a “set apart” nation, and at this time in history, they are found within the Roman Empire. This seems to be a perfect way to symbolize His people within this 4th kingdom at the time of His first coming. And it is also used perfectly since “He” will identify Himself as the “Stone” that will strike this kingdom (only where His people are - not the legs of Rome) to separate them for His use. 
 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

If the prophecy uses elements to describe them, and clay is God's people, why were thy not in all four Kingdoms?
 

His people are mentioned in all the kingdoms- they are held captive in Babylon, they were allowed to be released by the Medes-Persians, and they are mentioned with the 3rd kingdom. Each kingdom has its own relationship and mission within God’s plan of salvation. God has designed a perfect way to reveal His people at “that time” in their history for when He will arrive. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Israel was captive at the time of Nebuchadnezzar. The only reason to change elements is contained in the text. This defines the gold.

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold

That is, Nebuchadnezzar's system of rule - Religious Autocracy - is the best system. The other Kingdoms were "inferior". God too is designated by gold. What have Jehovah and Nebuchadnezzar in common. Both were absolute Monarchs. Both claimed divinity. Both were Autocrats. The elements then in this case must mean TYPES of GOVERNMENT. Cyrus must ask his nobles and the nobles made laws. This is rule by ARISTOCRACY and is "inferior". Greece's rule was MILITARY and is "inferior" to Aristocracy. "Iron" is Rome's type of Government and again the text explains.

Agree there are differences in the way each kingdom is ruled, and that will have a “play” in how the Jews will be treated within each of the separate kingdoms, but the “management” style, if you will, does not define the unique kingdom. It is the two part identification process in chapter 2 (belt and suspenders type approach so there can be no mistake in their identity) by using a very different metal type along with a very different part (s) of a man. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

 

Agreed. And once again, verse 40 is confirming the 4th kingdom with the “iron”  only (strength of iron), and not with the clay element- it is found WITHIN the iron kingdom but NOT of the iron kingdom. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

 

Christ's system of rule in the millennium will be the same - the rule of the rod of iron. The "rod" stands for "correction" and "chastisement". Iron, unlike steel, which is strong but flexible, is unbending and strong. Because Christ has co-kings (Rev.20:1-4) His rule is one of SUBJUGATION by local government (1st Cor.15:24), not autocracy. So also the New Jerusalem. It is rule with co-kings and so only the city is gold - not the whole Kingdom (which includes the Nations and the Lake of Fire). But the "inferiority" is dome away with because it is not only a government, but it is governed by men and women with Christ's LIFE. This elevates the standard of rule to Christ's standard.

I think there is sufficient information within chapter 2 to be able to identify the 4 separate kingdoms. Daniel is written to the Jews and His city before His first coming. It begins with their captivity in Babylon and almost all of Daniel will speak to period ending with the completion of the 70 weeks of years prophecy in 33 / 34 AD (3.5 years after the Cross).
 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The promise to Abraham was that "all the families of earth would be blessed". Not - "all men will be saved". That is, the stone that fills the whole earth is a GOVERNMENT that brings  order, justice, instant retribution and the lifting of curses to all mankind. But the Church is called "Little flock". Israel is a "little Nation". Of the Church, "many are called but FEW are chosen". The stone of Christ's Kingdom starts "small". It is Christ's KINGDOM that fills the earth and not the Church.

Agreed. But the Stone was “cut out” of the Mountain. The Messiah and God are one and the same. Jesus did not come to rule the earth as His people expected  Him to come. However, He did “set up” His earthly kingdom and had made a way for both Jew and Gentile to be saved. Those of His people that would come to accept Him as their Messiah would go out into the world and preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus (referred to as “pottery clay versus those who would reject Him - “ceramic clay”). 
 

So, in my interpretation, we have the “dream sequence” (big picture) where God reveals the 4 and only 4 kingdoms we will find within Daniel (and remember, Daniel covers the entire period from 606 BC to His second coming so we will not add any other kingdom to these 4 for the entire period). 
 

God had also provided us with the 2 and only 2 “events” (actions) within the “Dream Sequence” - big picture that are the most important events that will ever take place WITHIN this 2600 year period. Meaning, here are the 4 borders and boundaries you NEED to consider and here are the 2 events you should consider when you these verses. When one tries to complete a large puzzle the first thing is to try and find the straight pieces that form the 4 outside borders. Here in Daniel’s puzzle are the 4 corners (kingdoms) where everything will take place, AND, He will also give us the 2 major events that divide this large puzzle into 2. The coming of the Messiah in the first century DOES indeed provide us with a well documented and identified place in WITHIN the puzzle to try and place the pieces of the puzzle. Again, most of the puzzle pieces (interpretation) will fit or be placed before the first event ( cross - 2:34). The last event 2:35 will also serve as the right side of the puzzle - the end of things. 
 

Without the cross identifying as 2:34, one would have to place almost all of the pieces as “end time events.” They would all have to be placed at or on the right end of the puzzle. But you can see that the events within the Hebrew chapters DID TAKE PLACE WITHIN (not at the end) the 4th beast kingdom. That is NOT the kingdom that will become known as papal Rome / little horn, but the 4th beast kingdom that was slain and its body destroyed- and that occurred in 476 BC. Again, this tells us that most of these puzzle pieces (interpretations) will have occurred before 476 BC. 
 

Now, that is my interpretation of the “Dream Sequence” verses in chapter 2 ONLY. Before moving on to the “Interpretation Sequence” verses (2:41-45), please let me know your thoughts on the above.

Thanks, Charlie