The “anti-Christ”

[douggg]

2 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

This time period represents the coming of the Messiah DURING the pagan Roman 4th kingdom. The Messiah came, not to rule on earth as the Jews expected Him to, but He came to “set up” His earthly kingdom. He will return as King and rule forever. 

Charlie, Jesus told Pilate, his kingdom was not of this world.  

In Daniel 7:13-14, Jesus received his kingdom in heaven.    When Jesus returns, He brings the Kingdom of Heaven to become the Kingdom of God upon this earth.    Has not happen yet.

Do you consider for example, Islam, to be the Kingdom of God ?

 

[douggg]

28 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

So, who are your 10 toes and the clay in chapter 2. Didn’t they come out of the 4th kingdom of Rome? 

The ten toes are the ten kings of Daniel 7 that the little horn person will first appear.  

They are end times kings as is the little horn person as in Daniel 8, Gabriel informed Daniel that the little horn's activities are time of the end.

The ten kings are ten leaders of the EU soon to be made known who they are specifically.

In addition, in Revelation 13, after the little horn person has become the beast-king for his final 42 months of rule - the ten horns on the beast coming out of the sea have their crowns to rule with the beast king.     I realize you have not got to that point yet of unpacking Revelation, yourself.    But there are other people reading these posts who have.

Edited December 4, 2023 by douggg

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

So, if EVERYONE agrees to abide using the same rules I followed, then we ALL have one source - the book of Daniel. 

Ok...I'll agree to that.

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

We all accept that “Rome” is never mentioned in Daniel, thus each of us must look at the verses that describe the attributes or characteristics of this 4th kingdom. 

Right. Rome is not alluded to. The bible has certain criteria for the 4th kingdom....and the 4th kingdom must meet that criteria.

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

For me, it is absolutely clear and very easy to determine the identity of the 4th kingdom. Gabriel has provided the type of metal associated with this kingdom in chapter 2. He has revealed the power of this particular kingdom (40). 

Gabriel revealed more than just the power of the 4th kingdom:

"There will be a 4th kingdom as strong as iron

Inasmuch as iron  crushes and shatters all things

SO....

Like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break ALL THESE IN PIECES.

The 4th kingdom will..... break....crush....and shatter...... all these in pieces.

What are ALL THESE?

They are the kingdoms before the 4th kingdom.

They are Babylon, Medes/Persia and Greece. 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

The only major world power that came after Greece is Rome…

Nope.

There were several others.

The major one that controlled Babylon was the Parthian Empire. And it held power until AD 214(or 244)

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

The timing of this coming 4th kingdom can not be disputed, and there is only one kingdom that is “in play” when all the Messianic prophecies take place. And don’t forget the 70 weeks of years prophecy that began in 457 BC. It ended in 33/34 AD or 3.5 years after the Messiah was crucified- what kingdom was that?

Now, please let me know who you believe the 4th kingdom is and why… 

I can't from the Book of Daniel ONLY.

Remember... you said we can only use the Book of Daniel. The first 3 empires are identified in Daniel.

The 4th is not.

So a person would have to go outside of the Book of Daniel in order to identify the 4th kingdom.

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by JoeCanada

[Charlie744]

43 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, Jesus told Pilate, his kingdom was not of this world.  

In Daniel 7:13-14, Jesus received his kingdom in heaven.    When Jesus returns, He brings the Kingdom of Heaven to become the Kingdom of God upon this earth.    Has not happen yet.

Do you consider for example, Islam, to be the Kingdom of God ?

 

Your question does not even make sense. Are you able to find verses that specifically mention that Jesus did not come me to rule on the earth at His first coming and He set up His kingdom? 
 

Can you tell me what verse 41  means? Who are the players in these verses, when do they come onto the scene, why do they come at the time they arrive, who caused them to arrive on the scene when they come? 
 

This is just one verse in chapter 2 that must be interpreted. Without understanding 41, you have no chance to interpret 42 or 43. 
 

These all take place at the time of the Messiah. Most of Daniel takes place in the 4th kingdom during those times. 
 

Even if you claim these are end time prophecies, you still would have interpreted them… who are they? 
 

You can not simply say they are end time events!!!

Do you really think this is going to be easy? The reason it took me 5 years to get through Daniel and not accept today’s accepted interpretations is because it is soooooo complicated. Each verse has to be focused on and learn how it interacts with, not only its surrounding verses, but the interpretations in the latter chapters are consistent with them. Fortunately, God has chosen to repeat His story of salvation multiple times in different chapters so we can test out interpretations against our earlier ones. 
 

Almost all of today’s interpretations are generated by throwing the verses into the future because Daniel is so cryptic and difficult to unpack. 
 

Regardless if one claims they are end times events or events at the time of the Messiah, the verses must be understood and unpacked. Not just… they are end time events. 
 

 

[Charlie744]

50 minutes ago, douggg said:

The ten toes are the ten kings of Daniel 7 that the little horn person will first appear.  

They are end times kings as is the little horn person as in Daniel 8, Gabriel informed Daniel that the little horn's activities are time of the end.

The ten kings are ten leaders of the EU soon to be made known who they are specifically.

In addition, in Revelation 13, after the little horn person has become the beast-king for his final 42 months of rule - the ten horns on the beast coming out of the sea have their crowns to rule with the beast king.     I realize you have not got to that point yet of unpacking Revelation, yourself.    But there are other people reading these posts who have.

Wait a minute… I am attempting to get your interpretation on 2:41… then 2:42… and so on. 
 

Take this slowly so we can compare interpretations of the individual verses (not all verses but the important ones). 
 

Here you go again talking chapter 7 and Revelation .. you also bring in the EU… are you not the same individual that repeatedly told me that “Rome and especially pagan Rome” is not mentioned in Daniel?

Tell me, where is the EU mentioned in either Daniel or Matthew or Revelation?

Let’s try and stick to the game plan before we jump to other chapters or even other books. 

[Charlie744]

38 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Ok...I'll agree to that.

 

Right. Rome is not alluded to. The bible has certain criteria for the 4th beast....and the 4th beast must meet that criteria.

 

Gabriel revealed more than just the power of the 4th kingdom:

"There will be a 4th kingdom as strong as iron

Inasmuch as iron  crushes and shatters all things

SO....

Like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break ALL THESE IN PIECES.

The 4th kingdom will..... break....crush....and shatter...... all these in pieces.

What are ALL THESE?

They are the kingdoms before the 4th kingdom.

They are Babylon, Medes/Persia and Greece. 

Nope.

There were several others.

The major one that controlled Babylon was the Parthian Empire. And it held power until AD 214(or 244)

I can't from the Book of Daniel ONLY.

Remember... you said we can only use the Book of Daniel. The first 3 empires are identified in Daniel.

The 4th is not.

So a person would have to go outside of the Book of Daniel in order to identify the 4th kingdom.

 

 

[douggg]

19 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Your question does not even make sense. Are you able to find verses that specifically mention that Jesus did not come me to rule on the earth at His first coming and He set up His kingdom? 

In Daniel 7:13-14, Jesus receives his kingdom in heaven.     Has Jesus returned to this earth yet ?    So where is Jesus's kingdom in respect to the kingdoms of this earth?

fyi, Revelation 11:15, when the seventh angel sounds.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Edited December 4, 2023 by douggg

[douggg]

18 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Tell me, where is the EU mentioned in either Daniel or Matthew or Revelation?

Rome as a term is not mentioned in Daniel.   The EU, a union of European nations, is the time of the end manifestation of the Roman Empire.   

The EU developed out of European Economic Community - which was established by the Treaty of Rome in 1957.

Edited December 4, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

40 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Ok...I'll agree to that.

 

Right. Rome is not alluded to. The bible has certain criteria for the 4th kingdom....and the 4th kingdom must meet that criteria.

 

Gabriel revealed more than just the power of the 4th kingdom:

"There will be a 4th kingdom as strong as iron

Inasmuch as iron  crushes and shatters all things

SO....

Like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break ALL THESE IN PIECES.

The 4th kingdom will..... break....crush....and shatter...... all these in pieces.

What are ALL THESE?

They are the kingdoms before the 4th kingdom.

They are Babylon, Medes/Persia and Greece. 
 

No. I already responded to this earlier. It is absolutely clear that each kingdom was conquered by the next succeeding kingdom. Babylon was conquered by the Medes-Persians, they were conquered by Greece and pagan Rome conquered Greece (although Greece was a fractured shell of what it was under Alexander). 
Pagan Rome ran through and crushed any nation in its path. They were ruthless, no compassion, no conscious at all. 
 

If you can identify a kingdom coming after Greece that was also in power during the Messiah, please let me know. 

 

40 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

 

 

 

Nope.

There were several others.

The major one that controlled Babylon was the Parthian Empire. And it held power until AD 214(or 244)

I can't from the Book of Daniel ONLY.

Remember... you said we can only use the Book of Daniel. The first 3 empires are identified in Daniel.

The 4th is not.

So a person would have to go outside of the Book of Daniel in order to identify the 4th kingdom.

 

Wait a minute, you just agreed (above) to source the book of Daniel or other books in the OT (example- Jeremiah or Isaiah. 
 

Tell me, who is your forth kingdom that comes after Greece, and meet all the other characteristics in chapter 2, 7, 8, 9 and 11.?

 

 

[Charlie744]

10 minutes ago, douggg said:

In Daniel 7:13-14, Jesus receives his kingdom in heaven.     Has Jesus returned to this earth yet ?    So where is Jesus's kingdom in respect to the kingdoms of this earth?

There you go again… we are still trying to address 2:41. We will get to chapter 7.