TEMPLE.....TO BE OR NOT PT 2

[AdHoc]

32 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Apparently you completely missed the meaning of my previous post. It wasn't about earth's weather, it was about what kind of clouds 1 Thes. 4:17 is referring to.

You have not provided one iota of scriptural evidence that the clouds mentioned are from earth's atmosphere. So your whole argument is based solely upon a personal presumption.

You are right. I never, for one moment though that a cloud might not be a cloud in the Bible, and that the clouds of 1st Thessalonians 4:17 must be defined.

[Guest Stormy Monday]

Bye

Edited February 9, 2024 by Stormy Monday

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Stormy Monday said:

There's only one word for cloud in the NT - 26 times plural and 22 times singular and EVERY TIME it refers to natural clouds.

clouds

Shalom, Stormy Monday.

Correct! And the Greek word for "heaven" is οὐρανός = ouranos, which means the "sky!"

3772 ouranos οὐρανός (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):
—air, heaven(-ly), sky.

This word appears 4 times in these 4 verses:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός = ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός = ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

Note: It is the SAME WORD "ouranos" in all FOUR locations! Answer me this:

Why should the SAME GREEK WORD be translated as "heaven" in verse 1 but as "sky" in verses 2 and 3? The Greek word didn't change in either number or gender, no suffixes or prefixes were added to it, and the only changes were in case, and those were the nominative case twice and the genitive case twice! So, what was the reasoning for the word being translated as "heaven" in verse 1 but "sky" in verses 2 and 3? I have YET to hear a satisfactory reason!

[WilliamL]

On 2/8/2024 at 2:32 PM, WilliamL said:

 

 

On 2/8/2024 at 3:42 PM, AdHoc said:

You are right. I never, for one moment though that a cloud might not be a cloud in the Bible, and that the clouds of 1st Thessalonians 4:17 must be defined.

Heb. 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses...

If you presume that the above-mentioned cloud is made of water and is of Earth's atmosphere, then you have a serious case of tunnel vision. 

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

Heb. 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses...

If you presume that the above-mentioned cloud is made of water and is of Earth's atmosphere, then you have a serious case of tunnel vision. 

Your point is noted.

[Diaste]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:21 AM, SACREDWARRIOR said:

What happened to the (at this point) recently constructed 3rd temple?

"IF" a 3rd temple is integral to the a/c's schemes why are we not told of its destruction?

unanswerable questions, i understand...but together they should cause us to examine what is being said.

Hardly unanswerable.

Eze 38:20

"so that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at My presence; and the mountains shall be thrown down and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."

That would include the profaned 3rd Temple. 

 

[WilliamL]

On 2/8/2024 at 9:46 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Stormy Monday.

Correct! And the Greek word for "heaven" is οὐρανός = ouranos, which means the "sky!"

3772 ouranos οὐρανός (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):
—air, heaven(-ly), sky.

This word appears 4 times in these 4 verses:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός = ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός = ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

Note: It is the SAME WORD "ouranos" in all FOUR locations! Answer me this:

Why should the SAME GREEK WORD be translated as "heaven" in verse 1 but as "sky" in verses 2 and 3? The Greek word didn't change in either number or gender, no suffixes or prefixes were added to it, and the only changes were in case, and those were the nominative case twice and the genitive case twice! So, what was the reasoning for the word being translated as "heaven" in verse 1 but "sky" in verses 2 and 3? I have YET to hear a satisfactory reason!

This whole idea of ouranos  meaning "sky," and only sky, derives from Greek mythology. After the ancient war of the gods, wherein the Titans were cast down to Tartarus = the abyss of Hades, the chief winning gods -- Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades -- divvied up the world. Zeus became the sky god, the chief god. Poseidon got the seas, and Hades got the underworld. The surface of earth itself was their playground.

But the Hebrew mystics would just smile at this whole pagan idea. For them, the true upper realms are spiritual states of consciousness/being, having no physical characteristics at all. In constrast, they are different stages of both emanations from God in the creation of the cosmos, and, from man's point of view, different realms of spiritual closeness to God. The three major types of angels of the Bible, seraphim, cherubim, and ophanim, each are connected to a different one of these spiritual realms. These being the three heavens mentioned by Paul

So many passages in the NT speak about the kingdom of heaven, throne of God in heaven, and so on. If one interprets heaven with the Greek understanding, then the biblical God is no more than another Zeus, if not Zeus himself.

I'm sure most Christians have a more mature view of the heavens.

Edited February 13, 2024 by WilliamL