The coming Messiah..... True or False Messiah?...... or both?

[tatwo]

17 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

2 Thes 2:3-4

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Ok…so you Joe…see these verses as constituting a plan, command, vision, instruction, concept, as inspiration of some type…for Israel and its constituency to build another temple. While I can agree that the prospect of building a modern day temple (3^rd) is plausible…I have not actually seen that laid out in scripture…though it may actually be there…no one has shown me the “order” to do it.

Typically there is only “inference” to the building of a temple in Israel drawn out from ones interpretation of the given texts…your references are no different as I see it. Let’s look deeper into the first one you cite Joe.

First we need to consider the word “temple” in the New Testament as it has been translated…almost exclusively into “two” words in the Greek…I am working out of the KJV here as a note. Additionally, these are really the only two references to “temple” found in the New Testament…with the latter word…the only word for “temple” found in the book Revelation…this matters Joe.

1.     G2411 “hieron”…a temple, either the whole building, or specifically the outer courts, open to worshippers. The entire Temple complex, i.e. all its enclosures (precincts, courtyards) and the central sanctuary.

2.     G3485 “naos” that part of the temple where God himself resides.  Properly…divine dwelling-place…the place of divine manifestation. With just it’s two inner compartments (rooms). Consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies.

If the difference between specific definitions of the word “temple” means nothing to someone studying the bible…well then…they are able to frame their interpretation in any manner that suits them…and that may leave one with an incomplete or inaccurate interpretation…if that really matters.

Now let’s consider the first reference that you cite as some sort of directive or vision for the building of another temple. All would do well to follow this out…there is a simplicity to these passages that many have overlooked…I have taken the time to open up to you in a greater light…some understanding…hope you grasp it. 2^nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, 

In your selection of 2^nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verses 3 & 4…and in regard to the “Lords coming”…first in the progression here is the “apostasy”…this is a “falling away”…one cannot “fall away” from a thing…unless they were once “a part” of…the thing.

What is it that Paul is referring to as “that” from which there will be a “falling away…from?” Clearly it is from the “Kingdom of God and the Lord”…so prior to the Lord’s return…Paul is telling us that the “first” thing we will see…is people once formerly in the “house of God or the Body of Christ…departing the faith”…in other words they will be leaving via deception…thinking it is the right thing to do.

Interestingly enough Paul is the one who teaches us if the Spirit of God dwells in us…”we are a temple of God”…for further clarification on the matter…Paul wrote…”do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?” That is very clear and straight forward…only the deceived trip on this definition of “temple.”

He does not stop there…in Ephesians he writes this…”you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household”…in the “house of God.” Which house…has been “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone”…the “house of God” also known as “the temple of God”…then…is on a firm foundation…in Christ.

Paul continues here in Ephesians 2 by writing…”in whom the whole building [the house/temple of God] being fitted together [the temple of God that is being built] is growing into a holy temple in the Lord” The “Body of Christ”…is being built into the “holy temple of God” and because Paul is referring to humanity living on the earth in his day and up to today and yet future…the Lord is yet building “His Holy Temple.”

This is the only “temple” we need to concern ourselves with ever…do not be deceived beloved.

He does not stop there in Ephesians however…Paul concludes in verse 22 in this fashion…”in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.” This “temple of God” is such because…wherever the “Spirit of God dwells”…is “His Holy Temple.”

This is the term “naos” G3485… the place of divine manifestation…and this is the word Paul is using here. He is not referencing a “physical temple” that is the word “hieron” G2411 look for yourself.

To be continued...

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

17 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

2 Thes 2:3-4

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Ok…so it should be clear to the maturing “sons of God” that today…that the “only…temple in which God has interest is…His own”…that is the “dwelling place of His Holy Spirit”…which is “His people”…the “temple of God” on earth and in heaven is in “His people.”

It is this temple from which the “apostasy” takes place…it has to do with people “leaving the spiritual temple of God”…on earth…from Paul’s day up to today and in the future.

Now to finish 2^nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verses 3 & 4…“and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship” 

Now that we are armed with the “complete understanding” of exactly what constitutes “God’s Holy Temple”…which is described as what one is “apostatizing or falling away” from…then brings into view according to brother Paul…the cause of the “falling away”…it is…the appearance of one “who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship.” The liar…

So…is it too much a stretch for me to say…that this character…the “man of lawlessness” exults…opposes…deems himself as greater than God and His dwelling place or “His Holy Temple?”

No…no it is not a stretch at all…in fact…that…among other things…is exactly what Paul is telling us. This “lawless one” attempts to exult himself above “all other gods”…this includes the God and Father of our Lord Yahshua Christ and His creation.

What does this do for the “apostasy” but continuously inspire it all the greater? Once it gets to the fullness of its appearance…for those who are falling away…he…the “man of lawlessness” appears as “god.” This is exactly what Paul is revealing to us…and thus…this understanding will give a greater understanding of the following passage from…2^nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 4b.

“So that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.”

We have already understood the “temple of God” as “His Spirit dwelling in and among His household and people.”

We also understand that it is the “temple of God” from which one can “fall away” that constitutes the “apostasy” that Paul reveals to us.

We understand that it is the “deceptive” work and appearance…“as God”…of this “man of lawlessness” that causes people formerly in the “temple of God” to reject God leave the temple and follow him all the wiles thinking they are in Christ…massive deception in play here.

So…”a people” who were once “the temple of God”…who “fall away” from or leave the only “temple of God” there is…which is ”the dwelling place of Gods Holy Spirit”…are deceived by this “man of lawlessness”…into believing that…“he is God”…thereby completing the transition from actually being in the “temple of God” into the “temple of the false god”…as God…in their minds…without their realizing this…which is what Paul has communicated here in 2^nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

It is in this…that we see the “man of lawlessness…taking his seat in the temple of God”…”displaying himself as being God.” Of course at some point this one is no longer in “temple of God” in Christ.

This “man of lawlessness” precipitates the ”falling away…the apostasy”…which causes people who were “formerly” in the Kingdom of God…to acquiesce to the belief that he…this “man of lawlessness” is God…and this happens in “their minds”…their thoughts are co-opted through an invisible spiritual deception…that by definition…is completely unbeknownst to the apostate.

They go on believing and living like they are in Christ…members of His body…and are now tragically and unaware that they are trapped in an inverse reality…and in darkness as they see this “man of lawlessness” as their God.

I will say this…for those multitudes who are in some form or fashion yet watching for this “man of lawlessness”…by the time…you…“see”…him as he is…your deception will be complete…and you will obey his rule in your life in the form of worship to your god.

If you have not yet seen this one the “man of lawlessness”…brother, sister…you have/are being deceived by him…because he has you looking forward in time to his appearance…as though he has not yet arrived…that is the power of his covert nature and operation. No one says…”oh hey…I am deceived.”

Tatwo...:)

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, tatwo said:

It is in this…that we see the “man of lawlessness…taking his seat in the temple of God”…”displaying himself as being God.” Of course at some point this one is no longer in “temple of God” in Christ.

I like to refer to this passage:

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses."  Matthew 23:1-2

to point out that that "taking his seat" can be used as a metaphor for "assuming the authority of."

[Dennis1209]

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matthew 24:24) [emphasis added]

In lieu of the singular Antichrist and False Prophet, it is interesting that the above is written in the plural. Never since Jesus spoke this has there been a group of people showing great signs and wonders. There certainly have been false Christs and false prophets, but they never did signs and wonders as stated in scripture (David Koresh and a handful of others). I have my suspicions about the plurality.

“If it were possible” can be stated another way: the elect (those truly born again) will not be deceived.

In my theology, 3.5 years into the Tribulation, the Lawless One (false messiah) will declare himself to be God. Three and one-half years later, the True Messiah will return, defeat him, and establish His kingdom.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 4/9/2024 at 7:31 PM, JoeCanada said:

The coming Messiah..... True or False Messiah?...... or both?

Scripture teaches us that there will be a coming Messiah..... both a true Messiah and a false messiah.

It is the false messiah that will be the focus of this post.

The bible does not really preach a false messiah is coming, that has been extrapolated from men through the years, mostly from  misdiagnosing passages, some which were meant for 70 AD like Matt. 24:4-6 and John 5:43. Other passages which speak about the Anti-Christ and false prophet (Matt. 24:24-27) says they will preform miracles and TRY (key word) to deceive the elect, so how do I get TRY?

Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before[hand].

{{Which mean's it is NOT POSSIBLE}}

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So, by reading this passage we know Israel never accepts anyone as their "Messiah" but how do we know? Because Jesus says if it were possible even the elect would be deceived, meaning the 1/3 repent before the Anti-Christ conquers Israel, thus these elect are being protected in the Petra/Bozrah area, and thus it is not eve remotely possible for them to be deceived----BEACUSE---- Jesus has foretold them about these events, as has his Two-witnesses. 

The A.C. is a Gentile, so the Jews who do not repent know better, they are there, they will get killed, but they of course will not accept him as their "Jewish" Messiah, if they did why would the A.C. kill the 2/3 as Zech. 13:8-9 says will happen? The 1/3 will of course not accept him because they have accepted the Messiah as their Savior. So, what does vs. 24 mean? Well, the False Prophet no doubt tries to trick them with his miracles, claiming to be the Messiah himself or putting a man forth and lying that he is the Jesus who was to come again, he knows if he can get the 1/3 of the Jews who repented and are in the Petra area in hiding, to just come back to Jerusalem, he and the A.C. can then kill them. So, they are going to say Jesus has returned (Remember, these 1/3 Jews are now Messianic Jews or Christian Jews) and they will indeed try to trick them into coming back unto Jerusalem by putting forth a false Jewish man of some sorts, not the A.C. himself,  that would of course have no chance of working. The the 1/3 repent and the 2/3 will perish, where in that margin or ratio does any number show they accept the A.C. as their Messiah? But many buy into this, even very famous preachers swear by it.

So, its just not a factual event per se. Now 70 AD was indeed the fulfillment of Matt. 24:4-6 and John 5:43.

 

On 4/9/2024 at 7:31 PM, JoeCanada said:

The big question is HOW is this false messiah, the antichrist, the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction, the wicked one.......  going to deceive churchgoers

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The Church will not be on earth, the Remnant (Church) of her (Israel) Seed (Jesus was that seed read Gal 3:16 ABOVE) So, all those Gentiles who repent after the pre 70th week rapture, are that REMNANT and I can prove 100 % they can not be Jewish. The 1/3 are protected, the Dragon gets angry because he can not get at them, thus he TURNS to go after the Remnant [Church] and that can not be the 2/3 Jews because 1.) They are not a Remnant, 2/3 is larger than 1/3 and 2.) Read the text in verse 17, it says specifically that the Dragon went to make war with the "Remnant of her seed" who have the TESTIMONY of Jesus, how can the 2/3 have the testimony of Jesus when they refused to repent? That Remnant (Church) of her (Israel's) seed (Jesus) can only be the Remnant Church, and thus the Pre 70th week rapture means those Gentiles who come to Christ after the Rapture are the Remnant seen in Rev. 12:16-17. 

So, that question can not be reconciled with facts my friend.

On 4/9/2024 at 7:31 PM, JoeCanada said:

going to deceive churchgoers, Jews and maybe even some Christians, that he is their true messiah, that he is God and that he will give them what they're looking for. And what Israel has wanted for 2,000 years is another temple.

Him claiming to be God Manifest means some people will worship him in such manner, I mean look at the suckers in the world today, but no Jew is going to accept a Gentile King as their Messiah, its just not going to happen. People just never quite think this stuff through tbh. Now other peoples might accept him as God, but I doubt very seriously that an Antisemitic man will claim to be a Jew, would Hitler have claimed to be a Jew? People just get this stuff passed down and it becomes legend.

On 4/9/2024 at 7:31 PM, JoeCanada said:

But the one coming first will be the deceiver, the false Messiah...... and...... Satan's man Antichrist (the false Messiah) will give them exactly what they want...... the Third Temple..... and they will be totally fooled.

 

This 3rd Temple thing may or may not come as per unto the Anti-Christs strategy, which comes from Satan (Dan. 8:25 he hears Dark Sentences MEANING he is linked in to Satan and his riddles) or they may just build it themselves. We do not have knowledge of that understanding, it can only be speculation right? So, this whole Dan. 9:25-27 passage is what either confuses the majority or or sends them down a wrong path to start with. These Jews never accept this man as their Messiah, not the 1/3 (of course) nor the 2/3. Most people misconstrue this simple AGREEMENT as a "Covenant" which must be holy in their minds becaise the word covenant is used, thus people wrongly assume that the A.C. must trick the nation of Israel/Jewish peoples in some sort of way, when in fact the soon to come "AGREEMENT" spoken about in Daniel 9:27 is simply this. Israel will join the European Union, that is the AGREEMENT between Israel and the E.U. which arise (10 = Completion or however many Nations makes up the whole of the E.U.) out of the Fourth Beasts Head. The E.U. decides to give their power unto this one man (The E.U. President of course is Elected by the Parliament) and he brokers a deal, accepting Israel as a part of the E.U. Now, where is the beef currently at? Europe and Russia are already basically in a War over the Ukraine. 

This also explains WHY the 70th week (anger of God) kicks off, Israel just give God's land away for all intents and purposes by joining the E.U. Thus God kicks off the 70th week by Rapturing the Church.

Edited April 13, 2024 by Revelation Man

[tatwo]

On 4/12/2024 at 7:54 AM, Dennis1209 said:

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matthew 24:24) [emphasis added]

In lieu of the singular Antichrist and False Prophet, it is interesting that the above is written in the plural. Never since Jesus spoke this has there been a group of people showing great signs and wonders.

Hi Dennis...

"Never since Jesus spoke this has there been a group of people showing great signs and wonders"...are you suggesting that these "great signs and wonders" when they occur...are discernable to the carnal unjustified "human eye" in most cases? In other words The "deceptive assault" with which they attack humanity...is not so much upon the "world"...as it is upon the household of God...right? The Lord said...the only ones they do not deceive are the "elect" or the "sons of God."

The reason I ask is...being that these are the "works" of "false Christs and prophets" they are "evil spirits who are cloaked in deception" Dennis...agreed? 

In this light...we have the reality that these "false witnesses" who "shew great signs and wonders" which are empowered via "evil spirits" that rule in the "invisible realm" of spiritual darkness...why is it then...that one would expect that these "signs and wonders" are entirely visible to humanity when the primary focus and reason for them is to deceive those who believe in Christ?

These are "spiritual signs and wonders" designed to make believers...believe that which is a lie...and it is and will work in contributing to the "apostasy"...this is an assault upon the mind Dennis. This means that only those who are capable of "spiritually discerning" (seeing...hearing and understanding) this deception upon the church...can actually realize them. That is not to say that they are complete, or finished...no...this is an ongoing reality since the first century as Paul writes about it.

The real issue may be for those who "do not or cannot" understand that these evildoers are in action today as professionals. In fact the deception is so complete that "Only the elect" can see them...exactly as the Lord himself "said." 

If you understand what I am saying here...the question I have for you and anyone else is...where does that leave someone like yourself...who I am understanding believes that..."Never since Jesus spoke this has there been a group of people showing great signs and wonders?" 

Something to consider

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The bible does not really preach a false messiah is coming, that has been extrapolated from men through the years, mostly from  misdiagnosing passages, some which were meant for 70 AD like Matt. 24:4-6 and John 5:43. Other passages which speak about the Anti-Christ and false prophet (Matt. 24:24-27) says they will preform miracles and TRY (key word) to deceive the elect, so how do I get TRY?

Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before[hand].

On 4/12/2024 at 7:54 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Never since Jesus spoke this has there been a group of people showing great signs and wonders.

Dennis here is a perfect example of what I posted to you...

"Revelation Man" says "The bible does not really preach a false messiah is coming, that has been extrapolated from men through the years, mostly from  misdiagnosing passages"

Then "Revelation Man" quotes the Lord Himself saying false messiahs (Christ) will "arise" or "come."

Still think no one is at work as "false Christs and false prophets" today? You looking at its effect right here.

Tatwo...:)

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, tatwo said:

Dennis here is a perfect example of what I posted to you...

"Revelation Man" says "The bible does not really preach a false messiah is coming, that has been extrapolated from men through the years, mostly from  misdiagnosing passages"

Then "Revelation Man" quotes the Lord Himself saying false messiahs (Christ) will "arise" or "come."

Still think no one is at work as "false Christs and false prophets" today? You looking at its effect right here.

Tatwo...:)

For starters you misrepresented what I stated, if you had read you would have known better, but of course your type love to misquote others putting forth an already "understood agenda". 

 

I never stated there would be no false christs, I stated Israel will never accept the Anti-Christ as this FALSE CHRIST. Then I explain the False Christs mentioned in Matt. 24:4-6 and in John 5:43 were FULFILLED in 70 AD. And that no Jew will ever accept a Gentile as a false Messiah, it will not ever happen, PERIOD.

Then in Matt. 24:24 Dennis is correct, Jesus call the False Christs and False Prophets plural because he is talking about all three time he spoke about them in Matt. 4-6 (70 AD). In Matt. 24:9-11 where he was talkin g about the Prophets getting killed by the orders of Rome because they were taking patrons away from the Zeus and Jupiter type religions, and Rome believed in those gods. So, THOSE false prophets had the disciples all killed, save John. 

So, you did not read or misrepresented what I stated on purpose. This is why you always get everything wrong. 

[tatwo]

13 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

For starters you misrepresented what I stated, if you had read you would have known better, but of course your type love to misquote others putting forth an already "understood agenda".

I read it...all of it RM

13 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I never stated there would be no false christs

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The bible does not really preach a false messiah is coming

 

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

Hi Dennis...

"Never since Jesus spoke this has there been a group of people showing great signs and wonders"...are you suggesting that these "great signs and wonders" when they occur...are discernable to the carnal unjustified "human eye" in most cases? In other words The "deceptive assault" with which they attack humanity...is not so much upon the "world"...as it is upon the household of God...right? The Lord said...the only ones they do not deceive are the "elect" or the "sons of God."

The reason I ask is...being that these are the "works" of "false Christs and prophets" they are "evil spirits who are cloaked in deception" Dennis...agreed? 

In this light...we have the reality that these "false witnesses" who "shew great signs and wonders" which are empowered via "evil spirits" that rule in the "invisible realm" of spiritual darkness...why is it then...that one would expect that these "signs and wonders" are entirely visible to humanity when the primary focus and reason for them is to deceive those who believe in Christ?

These are "spiritual signs and wonders" designed to make believers...believe that which is a lie...and it is and will work in contributing to the "apostasy"...this is an assault upon the mind Dennis. This means that only those who are capable of "spiritually discerning" (seeing...hearing and understanding) this deception upon the church...can actually realize them. That is not to say that they are complete, or finished...no...this is an ongoing reality since the first century as Paul writes about it.

The real issue may be for those who "do not or cannot" understand that these evildoers are in action today as professionals. In fact the deception is so complete that "Only the elect" can see them...exactly as the Lord himself "said." 

If you understand what I am saying here...the question I have for you and anyone else is...where does that leave someone like yourself...who I am understanding believes that..."Never since Jesus spoke this has there been a group of people showing great signs and wonders?" 

Something to consider

Tatwo...:)

Hey Tatwo,

Deception is a prominent theme in Matthew chapter twenty-four. So much so that Jesus highlights deception four times for emphasis so we do not miss it. It occurs in the latter days or starting at the tribulation. I interpret these performing signs and wonders as bodily beings and observable.