What is biblical discipleship and to whom was the Great Commission given?

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

If I continue to strive to believe solely in Christ's Way, I shall then ultimately be saved from this world and its trappings.

You've already admitted that you are no better than all the believers of today.  

So it seems you think you will be ultimately saved by "continuing to strive".  But you've already admitted that you AREN'T striving to believe solely, that you are double minded, etc.

Anyway, it does appear you have a works-salvation system; that there are things that you must do to ultimately be saved.

How sad.  Jesus taught in John 5:24 that those who believe (present tense) HAVE (possess, also in the present tense) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life, which is WHEN they believe, per Jn 5:24, "shall never perish".

Why do you believe a different "gospel" than what Jesus taught?

[warrior12]

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

There is NO biblical command for every believer to make disciples.  That command was given by our Lord to "the eleven".  The purpose was to establish churches "in all the world", which "the eleven did" in the first century.

When you are born again, you effectively become a witness to the gospel and the grace of Jesus Christ. The holy spirit is your teacher, when you lack words in times of testimony, that is what he is there for , your helper.

Many verses in scripture was given to the eleven as you speak of.  If we took those to mean that they are only applicable to them,  then much of scripture believers would not take as personal teachings.

I wonder what you would do when opportunities presents itself to you to witness to people in your everyday walk.  Do you refer them to your pastor, or you speak from your heart what the gospel or good news is all about and then let the seed germinate from there.  

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

FreeGrace said:

Could you provide where I supposedly "discarded" what you claim here?  I haven't even mentioned Abel.

I appreciate your reply but, as you can see above, you are very good at ducking the question.

It seems the real "ducker" here is yourself.  You claimed that I have "discarded" things.  So I ask where I did that, and you simply ignore my question and throw out another false claim.  What's going on?

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

You, in a somewhat mocking manner, called into question preaching Christ's Work to all the creature.

This is another false claim.  I've never mocked Christ's preaching.  What are you referring to by "Christ's Work"?  The GC?  What have I mocked?  Only those who totally misunderstand to whom Jesus commissioned to fulfill the command.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I answered by showing that the restoration of the creature is very much part of Christ's grand work.

Please explain this.  And provide Scripture that says what you say.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Instead of justifying or retracting your tone in the light of such a a grand thought, you switch direction to the above sentence.

Rather, you are rather unclear about what you criticize.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Well, let me tell you that it was I who mentioned Abel, as you well know, and the question was about his blood's cry and God's curse on the creature.

Then why did you drag me into that by accusing me of discarding something about his story?

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Furthermore, as a well-versed student, you would know that God dos what He wants among men and we have Mark 16's disputed verses WITH connecting applications like Romans 8.

Oh, handling poisonous snakes?  Really?  If you don't want to believe what scholars have said about Mark 16:9-20, that's ok.  

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

In nearly every counter argument you have proposed you need to discard.

So now you're changing tunes and instead of claiming that I'm discarding something, I need to discard something.  If you want me to discard something, you will need to address specifically what it is and prove from Scripture that my "counter argument" is false.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

You discard Peter's inspiration in Acts 2, not with any scholarly argument

I think you need to stop all your false charges.  You know good and well my point was valid.  There is nothing in the text that says that God directed Peter to roll the dice.

The plan was presented by Peter.  Therefore, his plan.  He did not give God any credit for giving him the plan either.  And who chose the 2 men?  The text does NOT credit God with that.  The only credit God gets is who "wins the toss".  Give me a break.

There is NO evidence of Peter being "inspired". 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

but because it would defeat your opinion.

That is nonsense.  All I said about the choice of Matthias is true.  The text doesn't back your "inspiration" idea.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

So also Romans 8. It supports Mark 16.

I'm a Berean.  So peasae show me the parallels between the 2.  Thanks.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Discarding it in such a demeaning way is unbecoming of a serious student. Much better you show why we MUST NOT preach to all the creature especially when at every major judgement God has the creatures He will restore in audience.

I conclude from this that you haven't been reading my posts very carefully.  I've NEVER argued that any believer "MUST NOT preach" to every creature.  That's never been my argument.  My only point is that the GC was specifically for "the eleven" in order to establish "the church universal", as the book of Acts covers in detail.

What is taught as "discipleship" today misunderstands the GC totally.  It's not given to everyone, as so commonly taught.  

Further, discipleship seminars seem to ignore, or avoid, the second equally important part of the commission:  "teaching them EVERYTHING I have commanded you".  How many believers even know all that Jesus taught "the eleven"?  Precious few.

If you want to know how the GC works in the church age (these days), Eph 4:11 and 12 explains it.  v.11 is a list of the communication spiritual gifts and v.12 is the result of exercising these gifts; the building up of the church.  

Not every believer is called to "go into ALL the world".  But missionaries are.  Pastors are charged with "teaching them EVERYTHING I have commanded you".

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Then you water down the grammar of Matthew 19 because you can't answer why the Lord said that in order to ENTER the Kingdom, the rich man must keep the Law.

From all your comments, it seems that you believe that man must "do things" in order to be saved, whether by keeping the Law, or most/some of it, or just being "faithful/obedient" all, most, some of the time.  That, sir, is a works salvation system, just like the Pharisees, and Jesus condemned them for it.

Salvation is by GRACE.  That excludes ANYTHING and EVERYTHING beyond faith in the finished work of Christ.  Eph 2:8,9 teaches that clearly.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

You fail to apply the grammar that commands the rich man AN ADDITIONAL WORK to ENTER the Kingdom - sell all and give.

Ok, I see that you've missed the point entirely.  The point of the account is that the RYR thought he was good enough to enter the kingdom (go to heaven).  Jesus gently pointed out that he wasn't even keeping the FIRST commandment.  That's why he went away sad.

It seems your view is in direct contradiction with what Paul taught in Romans.

Rom 2:6-8  God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

It sounds as though one CAN keep the law and receive eternal life.  But Paul wrote a lot more than that.

Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
So here, Paul makes very clear that NO ONE can keep the law perfectly, which is the point of Rom 2:7.  That's precisely WHY Jesus came to earth, lived a perfect life, and died on the cross for ALL of your sins and mine and everyone else's sins.  So that those who believe in His finished work on the cross will receive eternal life (John 5:24) and shall never perish (John 10:28).

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Your going off a tangent about salvation by works doesn't fool anybody.

Hardly a tangent.  From your own words you have clearly indicated that is your view.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Your tone again is not worthy of scholars of Jesus for the rich man got rich by keeping the Law.

My "tone"?  What does "tone" have to do with anything?  On forums, there is no "tone".  Only words.  The supposed scholars that you refer to would obviously be in the same theological camp as you, and therefore misunderstand the whole account of Jesus and the RYR.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

It is part of the Covenant of Sinai. His refusal to sell all means that he BELIEVED God. God it was Who PROMISED wealth for keeping the Law. The Old Testament economy of Law ended with John Baptist. Why, who told the rich man that it had changed?

As I've just shown from Rom 2 and 3, NO ONE can keep the Law perfectly, which is required to earn eternal life.  Rom 3:20 expands on Rom 2:7.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

And you fail not only to mention this, but that our Lord Jesus had a high regard for this man (Mk.10:21). He LOVED him.

There is a difference between "high regard" and love.  Since Jesus died for everyone, you could say He had a high regard for everyone.  

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

And of lack of faith no one can deny that the grammar shows the rich man BORN AGAIN as He had recognized the rank of Jesus.

If the RYR was born again, why did he go away sad?  Jesus had just deflated his ego by showing him that he loved his wealth more than God.  That's a violation of the FIRST commandment.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

His question was how to HAVE eternal life, but Jesus answer was that it was not a matter of HAVING LIFE but for him to ENTER LIFE.

There is no difference.  Eternal life is a gift, given at the moment of faith in Christ.  John 5:24 are the words of Jesus.  And salvation most cerrainly IS a matter of having life; eternal life.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

\To ENTER the Kingdom (used interchangeably with "life"), he had to be born again (Jn.3.3-5). And THAT only happens by FAITH.

There is no evidence that he recognized Jesus as the Messiah.  

Matt 19:21 - Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

The man left sad because it is obvious he couldn't be "perfect".

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The rich man HAD eternal life but was in need of WORKS needed to ENTER Life - one of which was to deny oneself and the soul.

If he had eternal life, he was saved and w0uld enter life at death.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Your appreciation of Matthew 7 is equally distorted.

What is distorted in your view of salvation by works.  Having to deny yourself isn't for salvation but for eternal reward.  It is earned, not salvation.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

"That day" must be the day of judgement, for a place in the kingdom was at stake. To be eligible for the Kingdom you must be born again (Jn.3:3).

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

It's all about entering.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The judgment takes place at the Bema. To stand before the Bema you must be resurrected a Christian

Which means to have died a Christian.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

No, my friend. These were believers. They knew the Lord during their lives.

No they weren't.  They were basing their entrance into the kingdom on THEIR OWN WORKS.  There is no mention of what Christ did for them.  Which is the basis for their salvation.  They won't be at the Bema but at the GWT judgment of Rev 20:15.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

They had the power to cast out demons - a sign of a believer.

That is not what Jesus taught.  Mark 3:22-27 - And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.” And he called them to him and said to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.

It is quite clear from this that Satan is crafty enough to have false teachers/prophets casting out demons to deceive people.  So I disagree with your view.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

They did so in Jesus' name.

So?  By the time this crowd gets in front of the King at the GWT, EVERYONE will know exactly who He is.  And it will be too late for repentance.  

This crowd thought they could earn heaven.  They were obviously religious, but they didn't have eternal life because they never believed in the Savior for their salvation.

Rather, they believed in their own (stinking-Isa 64:6) works.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

They are present a the assize that decides who enters the Kingdom.

Tht was determined before the foundation of the world.  God already knows who will believe.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

As to 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5, there is nothing obscure about them. They say what they say. Evil WORKS and WORKS of the flesh bar entry to the Kingdom. They were written to BELIEVERS!

I didn't say they were obscure.  I said many misunderstand them.  And I explained WHY.  Such people think their own works are required to be saved.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Selectively downplaying scripture will not work.

Could you please provide evidence when you throw out claims against my posts.?  I've never done that.   So please prove your claim.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Denying God's power to have what He wants won't help.

Again, please prove this empty claim with what you think supports your claim.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The Bible as we know it stands, including Mark 16.

Scholars who actually study manuscripts from antiquity know the passages that AREN'T found in the earliest manuscripts.  But you are free to disagree with anyone you wish.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Peter did not dream up the election of Mattias.

I never said he dreamed up anything.  The plan was his.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

It was prophesied in the Psalms, validated by Jesus and executed with unanimity among 120 praying people.

Sure the crucifixion was prophesied in the OT, including Jesus' betrayal.  There is NOTHING about replacing the betrayer.  Or, if there is, please quote the verse.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Mark 16 has such a wealth of internal evidence. And a dismissive argument usually confirms the opponent's argument.

Go ahead and disagree with scholars who actually know the facts.  It seems you must think that study Bibles that include commens about passages that aren't found in the earliest manuscripts were lying.  Wow.

[FreeGrace]

3 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

When you are born again, you effectively become a witness to the gospel and the grace of Jesus Christ. The holy spirit is your teacher, when you lack words in times of testimony, that is what he is there for , your helper.

I've never said otherwise.  Read the OP.   It was NOT given to more than 11 guys.

3 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

Many verses in scripture was given to the eleven as you speak of.  If we took those to mean that they are only applicable to them,  then much of scripture believers would not take as personal teachings.

Well, I'm talking specifically about Matt 28:19,20.  Not "every" verse in Scripture.  Let's not move the goal posts.

3 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

I wonder what you would do when opportunities presents itself to you to witness to people in your everyday walk.

I've already explained all this.  I guess you haven't read enough of the posts to know that.

For example, Col 4:6 and 1 Pet 3:15 (look them up) command believers to be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

iow, every believer is commanded to be able to give an answer to those who see the difference in their lives and ask about it.

So, the real question is; how many times do unbelievers ask believers about such an obviously changed lifestyle from the norm?

3 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

  Do you refer them to your pastor, or you speak from your heart what the gospel or good news is all about and then let the seed germinate from there.  

Every believer is commanded to ANSWER everyone who asks the reason for the hope they have.  

iow, every believer is to be prepared to give a good (biblical) answer to questions.

Hopefully, believers are being asked for the reason for their hope.

[luigi]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But you have included yourself in the condemnation of believers of today.

 

As I said in an earlier post FreeGrace; we are all currently double minded, having faith in God and the world. Who here is willing to part from their modern technological goods (idols)? Most all of us here have our cars (chariots), our big screen tv's, computers, smart phones, refrigerators, etc.,etc.,etc., that we cannot live without. I acknowledge my double mindedness for these things of this world that I care about, and know that the love for these things is contrary to belief in and on Christ. While I continue in the acknowledgement of this truth, rather than its denial; the truth shall then in the future set me free.

The only condemnation of believers as you state, are of those who do not acknowledge the truth for their love of these things of the world, and therefore cannot be freed from these things of the world.

[WilliamL]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But I have a question for you. What Apostle raised up the Church in Rome?

Why, Peter, of course!! Every good Catholic will tell you that.

[luigi]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You've already admitted that you are no better than all the believers of today.  

So it seems you think you will be ultimately saved by "continuing to strive".  But you've already admitted that you AREN'T striving to believe solely, that you are double minded, etc.

Anyway, it does appear you have a works-salvation system; that there are things that you must do to ultimately be saved.

How sad.  Jesus taught in John 5:24 that those who believe (present tense) HAVE (possess, also in the present tense) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life, which is WHEN they believe, per Jn 5:24, "shall never perish".

Why do you believe a different "gospel" than what Jesus taught?

No FreeGrace,

So long as I continue in truth to acknowledge my error (sin) to the Lord about my double mindedness; the truth shall then set me free. That's gospel.

And, yes; those who believe (present tense), in and on Christ have eternal life. So the question is: How many of us do believe in Christ's Way, and not also the way of the world? There's a reason why James is informing 1st century Christians of their double minded ways; and it is because of the seductions back then, which do not even compare to the seductions of todays modern technologies (sorceries according to Revelation 9:21).

 Revelation 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

[WilliamL]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

On 5/22/2024 at 2:04 PM, WilliamL said:

Good summary of the subject, but self contradictory when talking about foundation building. Marilyn answers this by pointing out that individual assemblies are still being founded.

Thank you brother. Hopefully I can clear up the contradiction. Marilyn addresses a LOCAL Assembly.

On 5/20/2024 at 4:01 PM, AdHoc said:

Likewise in Ephesians 2:19-21, the Household of God is built on the foundation of prophets and APOSTLES.

On 5/20/2024 at 4:01 PM, AdHoc said:

In summary, I propose that all gifts are still available except the office of Apostle, seeing as they are a foundation and the Master builder, Christ, refuses double, treble and/or multiple foundations.

You omit that you, quoting Ephesians, said  that prophets also built the foundation. And then say that prophets still exist, but not apostles. Contradiction.

This is one of those arguments that get so in the weeds, and yet is not really relevant to much of anything. Suffice it to say, from my point of view, that there have been men throughout the Church age, including today, that have done and are doing "greater things" than even Jesus did (as Luigi noted), because He went to His Father.

Remember, in Paul's list of the gifts of the Spirit, wisdom and knowledge are at the top of the list, and sign works such as healing are accounted of a lesser value. So whether people call those doing the greater works to be "officially" apostles or not is really not all that important to me.

[warrior12]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, I'm talking specifically about Matt 28:19,20.  Not "every" verse in Scripture.  Let's not move the goal posts.

You are just coming up with legalistic views to highlight your topic.   The Christian is a soul winner and is to go forth in his daily walk ready and willing to give a testimony of Christ his saviour.   Don't hinder those vital virtues that are to be practiced and shone light to the lost.

Proverbs 11

³⁰ The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

It seems the real "ducker" here is yourself.  You claimed that I have "discarded" things.  So I ask where I did that, and you simply ignore my question and throw out another false claim.  What's going on?

This is another false claim.  I've never mocked Christ's preaching.  What are you referring to by "Christ's Work"?  The GC?  What have I mocked?  Only those who totally misunderstand to whom Jesus commissioned to fulfill the command.

Please explain this.  And provide Scripture that says what you say.

Rather, you are rather unclear about what you criticize.

Then why did you drag me into that by accusing me of discarding something about his story?

Oh, handling poisonous snakes?  Really?  If you don't want to believe what scholars have said about Mark 16:9-20, that's ok.  

So now you're changing tunes and instead of claiming that I'm discarding something, I need to discard something.  If you want me to discard something, you will need to address specifically what it is and prove from Scripture that my "counter argument" is false.

I think you need to stop all your false charges.  You know good and well my point was valid.  There is nothing in the text that says that God directed Peter to roll the dice.

The plan was presented by Peter.  Therefore, his plan.  He did not give God any credit for giving him the plan either.  And who chose the 2 men?  The text does NOT credit God with that.  The only credit God gets is who "wins the toss".  Give me a break.

There is NO evidence of Peter being "inspired". 

That is nonsense.  All I said about the choice of Matthias is true.  The text doesn't back your "inspiration" idea.

I'm a Berean.  So peasae show me the parallels between the 2.  Thanks.

I conclude from this that you haven't been reading my posts very carefully.  I've NEVER argued that any believer "MUST NOT preach" to every creature.  That's never been my argument.  My only point is that the GC was specifically for "the eleven" in order to establish "the church universal", as the book of Acts covers in detail.

What is taught as "discipleship" today misunderstands the GC totally.  It's not given to everyone, as so commonly taught.  

Further, discipleship seminars seem to ignore, or avoid, the second equally important part of the commission:  "teaching them EVERYTHING I have commanded you".  How many believers even know all that Jesus taught "the eleven"?  Precious few.

If you want to know how the GC works in the church age (these days), Eph 4:11 and 12 explains it.  v.11 is a list of the communication spiritual gifts and v.12 is the result of exercising these gifts; the building up of the church.  

Not every believer is called to "go into ALL the world".  But missionaries are.  Pastors are charged with "teaching them EVERYTHING I have commanded you".

From all your comments, it seems that you believe that man must "do things" in order to be saved, whether by keeping the Law, or most/some of it, or just being "faithful/obedient" all, most, some of the time.  That, sir, is a works salvation system, just like the Pharisees, and Jesus condemned them for it.

Salvation is by GRACE.  That excludes ANYTHING and EVERYTHING beyond faith in the finished work of Christ.  Eph 2:8,9 teaches that clearly.

Ok, I see that you've missed the point entirely.  The point of the account is that the RYR thought he was good enough to enter the kingdom (go to heaven).  Jesus gently pointed out that he wasn't even keeping the FIRST commandment.  That's why he went away sad.

It seems your view is in direct contradiction with what Paul taught in Romans.

Rom 2:6-8  God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

It sounds as though one CAN keep the law and receive eternal life.  But Paul wrote a lot more than that.

Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
So here, Paul makes very clear that NO ONE can keep the law perfectly, which is the point of Rom 2:7.  That's precisely WHY Jesus came to earth, lived a perfect life, and died on the cross for ALL of your sins and mine and everyone else's sins.  So that those who believe in His finished work on the cross will receive eternal life (John 5:24) and shall never perish (John 10:28).

Hardly a tangent.  From your own words you have clearly indicated that is your view.

My "tone"?  What does "tone" have to do with anything?  On forums, there is no "tone".  Only words.  The supposed scholars that you refer to would obviously be in the same theological camp as you, and therefore misunderstand the whole account of Jesus and the RYR.

As I've just shown from Rom 2 and 3, NO ONE can keep the Law perfectly, which is required to earn eternal life.  Rom 3:20 expands on Rom 2:7.

There is a difference between "high regard" and love.  Since Jesus died for everyone, you could say He had a high regard for everyone.  

If the RYR was born again, why did he go away sad?  Jesus had just deflated his ego by showing him that he loved his wealth more than God.  That's a violation of the FIRST commandment.

There is no difference.  Eternal life is a gift, given at the moment of faith in Christ.  John 5:24 are the words of Jesus.  And salvation most cerrainly IS a matter of having life; eternal life.

There is no evidence that he recognized Jesus as the Messiah.  

Matt 19:21 - Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

The man left sad because it is obvious he couldn't be "perfect".

If he had eternal life, he was saved and w0uld enter life at death.

What is distorted in your view of salvation by works.  Having to deny yourself isn't for salvation but for eternal reward.  It is earned, not salvation.

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

It's all about entering.

Which means to have died a Christian.

No they weren't.  They were basing their entrance into the kingdom on THEIR OWN WORKS.  There is no mention of what Christ did for them.  Which is the basis for their salvation.  They won't be at the Bema but at the GWT judgment of Rev 20:15.

That is not what Jesus taught.  Mark 3:22-27 - And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.” And he called them to him and said to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.

It is quite clear from this that Satan is crafty enough to have false teachers/prophets casting out demons to deceive people.  So I disagree with your view.

So?  By the time this crowd gets in front of the King at the GWT, EVERYONE will know exactly who He is.  And it will be too late for repentance.  

This crowd thought they could earn heaven.  They were obviously religious, but they didn't have eternal life because they never believed in the Savior for their salvation.

Rather, they believed in their own (stinking-Isa 64:6) works.

Tht was determined before the foundation of the world.  God already knows who will believe.

I didn't say they were obscure.  I said many misunderstand them.  And I explained WHY.  Such people think their own works are required to be saved.

Could you please provide evidence when you throw out claims against my posts.?  I've never done that.   So please prove your claim.

Again, please prove this empty claim with what you think supports your claim.

Scholars who actually study manuscripts from antiquity know the passages that AREN'T found in the earliest manuscripts.  But you are free to disagree with anyone you wish.

I never said he dreamed up anything.  The plan was his.

Sure the crucifixion was prophesied in the OT, including Jesus' betrayal.  There is NOTHING about replacing the betrayer.  Or, if there is, please quote the verse.

Go ahead and disagree with scholars who actually know the facts.  It seems you must think that study Bibles that include commens about passages that aren't found in the earliest manuscripts were lying.  Wow.

Your reply is read and noted. I think we've both had our say. I'm happy to leave you with the last word.