What is biblical discipleship and to whom was the Great Commission given?

[WilliamL]

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Let's get back to the OP.  The GC was specifically given face to face to "the eleven".  And Paul as well, later on.

Agreed. But that does not necessarily exclude others down the line. Billy Graham preached to far more than all of these twelve combined.

4 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

What name will be on the 12th foundation of the New Jerusalem, per Rev 21:14?  I say it will be Paul

No argument here!

[AdHoc]

@FreeGrace @Marilyn C @Marathoner @Michael37 @WilliamL and others

It may not be in accordance with the OP but the belief that the Gifts, or "the inspired" as some translate, have ceased, is worthy of debate.

If we include the gifts of Romans to those of Ephesians and 1st Corinthians we have quite a few. I think that the question is relatively easily answered. The gifts, or gifted ones are given these Gifts to build the Church, both in numbers and in maturity. So all I have to establish is, is our Lord Jesus Christ still building His Assembly, both in numbers and in spiritual maturity? If so, then the gifts are available as the Lord and Head sees fit.

Because of the duties of the prophets of the Old Testament, and because of excesses among Pentecostals, the gift of Prophet has fallen into somewhat disrepute. 1st Corinthians 14:3 defines a prophet, and one can see that a prophet/ess is a very normal duty for just about anybody.

But, there is one exception to a general acceptance of the Gifted ones in the Assembly. That is; Apostle. The Greek we translate as "Apostles" means "sent one". That is, as we see from both Paul and Barnabas, they are both called "apostlle" because they were "sent" by the Church. But in the Lord's scheme of building the Church, the Lord gave the Keys of the Kingdom to the Assembly. That means there is GOVERNMENT.

And in this government there is a hierarchy. "Apostles FIRST" (1st Cor.12:28). This proposes an OFFICE of an Apostle. Besides the Apostles being chosen and sent by the Head - the risen Lord, some incidents and events show a certain "power" invested. In 1st Corinthians 5 the assembly is authorized to excommunicate the incestuous brother, but if Paul was with them, present or in spirit, he could order the death penalty. And it was not a once-off thing for Alexander the coppersmith met the same fate.

But there is an argument that the OFFICE of Apostle, with its authority, has ceased. In Hebrews Chapter 5 going into 6 the Lord expresses His displeasure at the lack of growth of the Hebrew converts and states, in the complaint that the FOUNDATIONAL doctrines should not be laid again. That is, it is against the Lord's (and just about every architect) building plan to lay a foundation more than once. In 1st Corinthians 3 Jesus is the foundation of the Church and there is no record of Him being laid a second time. Likewise in Ephesians 2:19-21, the Household of God is built on the foundation of prophets and APOSTLES.

If the foundation is laid what purpose would there be for the OFFICE of Apostle? It would seem - none. But there is one more matter to settle. By the time Revelation was written (ca. 96 AD) the 12 Apostles would have died, except for John. Although this is not reported in scripture it can be reasonably assumed. If this be the case, why would the Lord commend Ephesus in Revelation 2:2 for testing Apostles? This would indicate that Apostles are still given and must be subjected to the three-point test of an Apostle. I vote for the reason being that throughout the Church-age, men would CLAIM to be Apostles but that the Assembly should not be intimidated and test them - even the gentlest of saints.

In summary, I propose that all gifts are still available except the office of Apostle, seeing as they are a foundation and the Master builder, Christ, refuses double, treble and/or multiple foundations.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

@FreeGrace @Marilyn C @Marathoner @Michael37 @WilliamL and others

 

In summary, I propose that all gifts are still available except the office of Apostle, seeing as they are a foundation and the Master builder, Christ, refuses double, treble and/or multiple foundations.

Hi Ad Hoc,

And here I thought you were going so well with your comment. So, I do disagree with you on that last point. You see I was brought up in the Apostolic Denomination, (4th generation) which came out of the Welsh Revival. 

My grandfather and Uncle were recognized Apostles and sent to Australia to bring the revelation of the 5 fold ministries (back in 1930`s). They both became Leaders of the denomination in Australia and New Zealand and travelled preaching, worldwide also.

My understanding and experience of Apostles is that they have a deep revelation of the Lord and manifest His character in a marked way. They often exhibit the 5 fold ministries in their own life.

And the Prophet works closely with them giving a deeper, far reaching word (for the whole body) than just someone prophesying for a local assembly.

I remember the early days when my mother and other ladies would take the Prophets words down in short hand and then it would get typed up. I still have many of those early prophecies. If you would like an example I can put one on for you here.

When the Prophet (or Prophets) had finished the Apostle would give an exposition of it to encourage the people. 

 

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

And here I thought you were going so well with your comment. So, I do disagree with you on that last point. You see I was brought up in the Apostolic Denomination, (4th generation) which came out of the Welsh Revival. 

My grandfather and Uncle were recognized Apostles and sent to Australia to bring the revelation of the 5 fold ministries (back in 1930`s). They both became Leaders of the denomination in Australia and New Zealand and travelled preaching, worldwide also.

My understanding and experience of Apostles is that they have a deep revelation of the Lord and manifest His character in a marked way. They often exhibit the 5 fold ministries in their own life.

And the Prophet works closely with them giving a deeper, far reaching word (for the whole body) than just someone prophesying for a local assembly.

I remember the early days when my mother and other ladies would take the Prophets words down in short hand and then it would get typed up. I still have many of those early prophecies. If you would like an example I can put one on for you here.

When the Prophet (or Prophets) had finished the Apostle would give an exposition of it to encourage the people. 

 

Thanks for sharing your view. I commend the individual saints who served the Lord within the structure they believed was correct. Our doctrine however motivates our behavior, so it is in our, and ultimately God's interests, to study the Word. Nothing is in the Bible by accident. In John Chapter 4 the Lord acknowledge the Samaritan "mountain" (Gerezim), and he equally admitted the Jews mountain of worship (Moriah). But he said that "the hours is coming - and now is" that God wants worship in the human spirit. The Samaritans had God's Word in the Pentateuch, and Israel had God's Word in the Torah.

If you quizzed one or the other, you would hear a good coherent argument for the mountains of worship, but all their efforts would not bring God His deserved worship. Moses received a "pattern" on the mountain on how he was to structure God's first House, and David received instructions on how Solomon was built the second House of God. We have detailed instructions on how to build the Church. And we have the added admonition to build according to the wise "masterbuilder" (1st Cor.3). The Apostles formed that crucial substructure. We had better be sure about whether we we build on sand or rock, or whether the foundations are Gold, silver and precious stones, or whether we build with hay and stubble.

With your above average knowledge of the Bible, would you say that your grandfather and uncle would pass the threefold test for an Apostles? When the true Apostles, trained by Christ Himself, sought eligible candidates, they laid down two stipulations:
1. the candidate had to have walked with the Lord while he was on earth
2. the candidate had to have seen the resurrected Lord bodily (Act.1:21-22)

Paul, who met the Lord personally, and was trained personally by Him, added a third stipulation;
3. The Apostle's sign is multiple miraculous works (2nd Cor.12:12).

The Church in Ephesus, in Revelation 2:2, no doubt applied these tests. Who can stand before the Bible? This view of mine, in no way detracts from a lifetime of diligent service by a pious saint. Your grandfather and uncle are not called into question for their dedication, diligence and loyalty to the Lord. But if a was a young Christian at Ephesus, and I took the courage to test such formidable men, what would the results of the test be?

[BibleStudent100]

On 5/16/2024 at 4:30 PM, FreeGrace said:

Yes, and that isn't a command nor a commission.  It's for those who have been well trained and can explain the gospel clearly.

Does not every Christian have a responsibility to preach the gospel, whether one is "well trained" or not?  There is Biblical precedent for children providing a message for the Lord.  2 Kings chapter 5 comes to mind.

[AdHoc]

6 minutes ago, BibleStudent100 said:

Does not every Christian have a responsibility to preach the gospel, whether one is "well trained" or not?  There is Biblical precedent for children providing a message for the Lord.  2 Kings chapter 5 comes to mind.

Well said. This section out of Romans should settle the issue.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. (Romans 10:12–18)

It is particularly pertinent when one realizes that the Church at Rome came into being without an Apostle. Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles, had never been there (Rom.1:10-13, 15:22-28). The "untrained" had simply reported (or testified) and the Holy Spirit had done His work on those who "heard".

 

[FreeGrace]

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

  FreeGrace said:

Let's get back to the OP.  The GC was specifically given face to face to "the eleven".  And Paul as well, later on.

Agreed. But that does not necessarily exclude others down the line.

If you can find ANY command in any of the epistles for believers to fulfill the GC you would have a point.  But there simply isn't any such commands.

Rather, the commands are to "be prepared to answer".

Col 4:6 - Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

1 Peter 3:15 - But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

This is for every believer.  

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Billy Graham preached to far more than all of these twelve combined.

He had the gift of evangelism, obviously.  And as such, he faithfully executed the first half of the GC, to "go into all the world and preach the gospel".  But how much time or effort into the second part of the GC?

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

@FreeGrace @Marilyn C @Marathoner @Michael37 @WilliamL and others

In summary, I propose that all gifts are still available except the office of Apostle, seeing as they are a foundation and the Master builder, Christ, refuses double, treble and/or multiple foundations.

The extent of the spiritual gifts is up for debate.  That's not what the OP is about.  

The traditional view is that the GC is for EVERY believer, which is simply not true.

Jesus commissioned His trained 11 to spread the gospel, to make disciples and to TEACH them everything He had taught them.

iow, the GC was to evangelize the known world of that time.  And by the 2nd Century, "the eleven" had done just that.  Of course, each generation needs to be evangelized, so God gives specific spiritual gifts for that purpose.

The closest evidence for who and what the GC is for in the NT is found in Eph 4:11,12

11 - So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,

12 - to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

[FreeGrace]

29 minutes ago, BibleStudent100 said:

  FreeGrace said:

Yes, and that isn't a command nor a commission.  It's for those who have been well trained and can explain the gospel clearly.

Does not every Christian have a responsibility to preach the gospel, whether one is "well trained" or not?

No, but that is the "traditional view".  The issue here is truth vs tradition.  

The responsibility of every believer is found in Col 4:6 and 1 Peter 3:15.

There are no commands in any of the epistles for believers to fulfill the GC.

The spiritual gifts of communication ARE given for evangelization and teaching.

If every believer is to really fulfill the GC, they would not only be traveling all over to preach the gospel, but then they would be teaching their converts, which is what Jesus commanded the apostles to do.  And they did.  All in the book of Acts.

29 minutes ago, BibleStudent100 said:

  There is Biblical precedent for children providing a message for the Lord.  2 Kings chapter 5 comes to mind.

Col 4:6 and 1 Peter 3:15 is how every believer is able to share their faith and witness to others.

If you feel called to preach on street corners, then be sure you follow up and teach all the converts as well.  

[BibleStudent100]

46 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

If you can find ANY command in any of the epistles for believers to fulfill the GC you would have a point.  But there simply isn't any such commands.

 

Matthew 28: 19, 20:  "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."