What is biblical discipleship and to whom was the Great Commission given?

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Thank you.

Probably because they aren't directly relevant to the GC.

Not clear what you mean by a "term not found in Scripture", and then talked about "gospel".  

Yes, Acts 2:38 has been poorly understood for centuries.  Peter told the crowd that the One they turned over to the Romans IS their Messiah.  "repent" literally means to change the mind, which they had to do.  They all understood Jesus' claim, but hadn't believed that He was who He said He was.  So Peter is directly telling them to change their minds.  And baptism there was the outward demonstration of an inward change.

Nobody gets saved through water baptism.  The entire Egyptian army was immersed (baptized) in the Red Sea and they all died.

I would appreciate an explanation of the difference.  

Could you give some Scriptural examples of this difference?

No, in Galatians Paul was warning of a fake gospel that was works salvation, which doesn't save.  The Galatians were turning back to animal sacrifice.

Is this a gospel that saves one from the LOF?

The English word "gospel" in the Greek means "good news".  There's lots of good news in the Bible.  The good news of how to earn reward in eternity and be blessed in time, the good news of how to be delivered, rescued saved from the LOF, etc.

Many what?  There is only 1 GC, found at the end of Matthew.  28:19,20.

Actually, Mark 16:9-20 was not found in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts, and was added later.  I cited 16:14 only to show the GC was given to "the eleven".  All that stuff about snakebites is clearly not part of inspired Scripture.

No difference.  Or do you think the Bible tells us to evangelize rocks, trees, fish, etc?

I think you've covered it well above.  I'm still not convinced that there is a difference between gospel of kingdom vs gospel of grace.  

God's entire plan for all of mankind is based on grace.  Unfortunately, many are confused and think that salvation was by works or law keeping in the OT.  Gal 3 refutes that notion.  The Law was given to prove to man that he can't be perfect and needs saving from the LOF.  The Law was given as a tutor to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:26).  And Paul preached exclusively from the "Scriptures", meaning the OT, that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God.  And Paul's message was clearly one of grace.

It was Paul who wrote Eph 2:8.  "we are saved by grace through faith".  That is the eternal message from Adam forward.

I am a little nonplussed. Up until now you have proven above average insight suddenly you claim ignorance. I suspect a trap. Do you think that the Holy Spirit made no difference between the various gospels, but called them by different names anyway? What gospel of Christ's death did the 70 preach when He had not yet died?What will the death of Christ hep the poor?

To avoid addressing me you discard Mark 16. First Peter is to be discarded without an answer although the King had said that they were to occupy 12 thrones - and the qualification was "... you who have followed me ... ". Now you discard the fact that because of Abel the earth was cursed by the cry of Abel's blood, but now we have One Who's blood flowed into the earth "and speaks better things than Abel's blood". The "regeneration" means just that - something that has been dormant for a long time suddenly comes to life (Mat.19:28). But even if you refuse that, on what basis does God introduce a "New Heaven and a New Earth" if the old is under curse? Did not the shed blood, sexual immorality and idol worship pollute the Land? Does not the creation groan now awaiting the "sons' of God resurrection"?

As to the gospel of grace versus the gospel of the kingdom, I will not speak at length. In Matthew 7:21-23 Believers, who knew Jesus and His coming Kingdom, claim the Kingdom. They did miracles in their lifetime in His name and belong to the same resurrection and the beam. They are not refused because of no faith. They are refused because of DISOBEDIENCE - their response to orders! And why did they not react "iniquitously". The Greek word "knew" means "intimate knowledge" - like Joseph not "knowing" Mary until Jesus was born.

In Matthew 19 a rich man is plainly told to keep the Law to ENTER LIFE. But "ENTERING life" is used interchangeably with the Kingdom. And those disciples who listened to the Master's teaching for 3 + years, interchanged ENTERING the Kingdom with being saved!

Is being saved from the Lake of Fire by the substitutionary death of Jesus the same as exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees to enter the Kingdom. The grammar is plain. Has a mistake been made in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5 where WORKS will get one ejected from the Kingdom? What then shall we say about the talents in Matthew 25. The slothful is refused the kingdom for not WORKING the Master's money. And so on.

Come now, esteemed brother. Reinstate Mark 16 and Peter's inspiration and we will together find who really survived the snakes! We need to affirm an Apostle.

If not, and you maintain your position, well and good. I bid you God's blessings.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

 

 

Good summary of the subject, but self contradictory when talking about foundation building. Marilyn answers this by pointing out that individual assemblies are still being founded.

Thank you brother. Hopefully I can clear up the contradiction. Marilyn addresses a LOCAL Assembly. God's Household is the UNIVERSAL Church. She answered apples with pears.

But I have a question for you. What Apostle raised up the Church in Rome?

[luigi]

53 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

So, that would include yourself.  Obviously no one is perfect.  Since you acknowledge that you don't think anyone is doing what Jesus did, that should be a clue as to whom Jesus was actually referring to.  The apostles of Jesus' day.  They DID do what Jesus did.  So Jesus' comments were specifically about "the eleven".

 

While the Lord was addressing the 11 apostles, the Lord also stated that all who believe in Him will do the miracles He did, and greater miracles. So your saying that it was only about the 11 apostles, makes what He said about all who believe in Him doing the miracles He did, and greater miracles, void. I therefore do not agree with a perspective that denies the Word.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your argument is good, but you did not deal with my arguments. Here they are in summary.

 

Hi Ad Hoc,

I did answer your arguments. I said -

Those qualifications were ONLY for the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, (for Israel). They were to witness to Israel of the Lord and Christ. (Acts 2; 36)

The other Apostles were given when Christ ascended to the Father and are for the building up of the Body of Christ. The 5 fold ministries are of Christ`s Headship and certainly needed till we come to full maturity as a Body in Christ. (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

Then I gave a list of 8 Apostles of the ascended Lord. None of those walked with the Lord or saw Him ascend. That was NOT the qualifications of the Apostles to the Body of Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I am a little nonplussed. Up until now you have proven above average insight suddenly you claim ignorance. I suspect a trap.

Huh?  I explained my confusion.  What "term" are you referring to that is not found in Scripture.  

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Do you think that the Holy Spirit made no difference between the various gospels, but called them by different names anyway?

In a previous post, I noted what the Greek word for "good news" means, which is good news.  And the Bible is full of lots of different kinds of good news.  The GC is clearly about the gospel that saves.  Rom 1:16  Not any other kind.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

What gospel of Christ's death did the 70 preach when He had not yet died?

That is all covered in the OT.  Paul preached 'from the Scriptures' that Jesus is the Messiah.  That includes the prophesied death on the cross.  

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

What will the death of Christ hep the poor?

Nothing directly.  Christ's death paid the full sin penalty for everyone.  So that satisfies God's justice and allows grace to those who believe.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

To avoid addressing me you discard Mark 16.

No, I only pointed out that v.9-20 aren't found in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts.  Do you disagree?  What evidence do you have that those verses are found in the earliest manuscripts?  And what is your point anyway about snake handling, when the OP is about to whom the GC was given?  Seems like a dodge to me.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

First Peter is to be discarded without an answer although the King had said that they were to occupy 12 thrones - and the qualification was "... you who have followed me ... ".

What?  Peter was among the "inner circle" of apostles, along with James and John.  Next to Paul, Peter gets more "face time" in Acts than any other apostle.  Why do you say Peter is to be discarded.  And Peter did follow Jesus.  Yes, there were hiccups.  That didn't disqualify him.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Now you discard the fact that because of Abel the earth was cursed by the cry of Abel's blood, but now we have One Who's blood flowed into the earth "and speaks better things than Abel's blood".

Could you provide where I supposedly "discarded" what you claim here?  I haven't even mentioned Abel.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The "regeneration" means just that - something that has been dormant for a long time suddenly comes to life (Mat.19:28).

Exactly!  Most believers are quite unaware of that.  And have no idea what EXACTLY does 'come to life'.  Regeneration regards the human spirit, which DIED "on that day" when Adam ate the forbidden fruit.  That resulted in spiritual death, which is reversed when one places their faith/trust in the finished work of Christ and they (their dead  human spirit) is born again.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

But even if you refuse that, on what basis does God introduce a "New Heaven and a New Earth" if the old is under curse?

"on what basis"?  What kind of question is that?  The Bible speaks clearly about a new heaven and earth in Rev 21.  And I don't "refuse" anything that you have been accusing me of.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Did not the shed blood, sexual immorality and idol worship pollute the Land? Does not the creation groan now awaiting the "sons' of God resurrection"?

Yes and yes.  Where are you going with this?

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

As to the gospel of grace versus the gospel of the kingdom, I will not speak at length. In Matthew 7:21-23 Believers, who knew Jesus and His coming Kingdom, claim the Kingdom. They did miracles in their lifetime in His name and belong to the same resurrection and the beam. They are not refused because of no faith. They are refused because of DISOBEDIENCE - their response to orders! And why did they not react "iniquitously". The Greek word "knew" means "intimate knowledge" - like Joseph not "knowing" Mary until Jesus was born.

You're losing me here.  The paragraph seems to wander.  I don't know what you are talking about.  As to Matt 7:21-23, the GLARING absence is faith.  There is no mention of it among anyone in that crowd.  One has to ASSUME they did have faith.  

But it that were true, and all of them are kept out of the kingdom (heaven), then Jesus wasn't telling the truth in John 10:28, because He said those He gives eternal life "shall never perish".  I absolutely believe that.  

And back in John 5:24, Jesus said that whoever believes HAS (means possess) eternal life.  Therefore, the MOMENT one believes (is a believer), HAS eternal life.  

 So, eternal security is from the MOMENT one believes in Christ for salvation.

Matt 7:21-23 has been very misunderstood by a lot of people.  What was the basis for their appeal for entering the kingdom?  Their own works.  Period.  Yes, they address Him as Lord.  So what.  That's just formality religion to them.  They were works-salvation oriented and that is why Jesus rejected them.  They had no faith in Christ.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

In Matthew 19 a rich man is plainly told to keep the Law to ENTER LIFE. But "ENTERING life" is used interchangeably with the Kingdom. And those disciples who listened to the Master's teaching for 3 + years, interchanged ENTERING the Kingdom with being saved!

Another misunderstood text!  Jesus never got to how to enter the kingdom.  The RYR was seeking affirmation by a rabbi and he bragged about how he had been "keeping the law", since his youth, no less.  Well, bully bully.  But Jesus knew his thoughts and nailed him gently by telling him to sell everything and give it all to the poor, and then follow Him.  His response?  He went away SAD.  Why?  Because he loved his money MORE THAN he was keeping the very first command.  Jesus pointed out to him that he wasn't even keeping the first commandment, so all his bragging was trashed in one fell swoop!  Jesus in NO WAY taught him that he would be saved by keeping the law.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Is being saved from the Lake of Fire by the substitutionary death of Jesus the same as exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees to enter the Kingdom.

Of course it is.  The righteousness of the Pharisees was based on keeping the law.  iow, works salvation, which Jesus condemned.

How does one have a righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees?  To have imputed righteousness that comes ONLY from faith in Christ.

Romans 3 and 4 clearly teach that God imputes Christ's righteousness to those who believe in Christ for salvation.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The grammar is plain. Has a mistake been made in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5 where WORKS will get one ejected from the Kingdom?

Another very misunderstood set of texts.  First, in NONE of the passages is there any idea, much less words, about being "ejected from the kingdom".  You seem to be reading much more INTO the text than what is there.

In 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5, the wording is "not inherit the kingdom", while in Eph 5 the wording is "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".  Yet, all 3 passages are parallel in that all include a list of sinful lifestyles.

So, to "not inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".  So why do I capitalize the word 'in'?  For emphasis.  

iow, such a believer DOES get IN the kingdom, but will have no inheritance there.

In Scripture, inheritance is used in 2 ways.  One way is the obvious inheritance of being God's child.  Rom 8:17a.  But there is another type of inheritance that is EARNED, and is about reward in eternity.  Rom 8:17b.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

What then shall we say about the talents in Matthew 25. The slothful is refused the kingdom for not WORKING the Master's money. And so on.

That parable is also about eternal reward, or LOSS thereof, based on lifestyle.  Not loss of salvation.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Come now, esteemed brother. Reinstate Mark 16 and Peter's inspiration and we will together find who really survived the snakes! We need to affirm an Apostle.

I believe I've proven from Scripture that Paul will have his name on the 12th foundation of the New Jerusalem.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

If not, and you maintain your position, well and good. I bid you God's blessings.

From all you've posted and the verses you've commented on indicate that you have been following the TRADITION of works for salvation.  Just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

Eph 2:8,9 are the clearest verses that refute any and every form of works salvation.

No one will enter heaven based on works, lifestyle, etc.

Do you know what eternal condemnation will be based on?

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Same words in both verses:  "have not believed".  Do you know what that really means?

Have NEVER believed.  That is who will be condemned.  Anyone who HAS believed HAS eternal life (John 5:24) and shall never perish (John 10:28). 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you brother. Hopefully I can clear up the contradiction. Marilyn addresses a LOCAL Assembly. God's Household is the UNIVERSAL Church. She answered apples with pears.

But I have a question for you. What Apostle raised up the Church in Rome?

If you read my comments more closely you would see that my grandfather and uncle travelled the world preaching and they were also the Leader of the denomination in Australia and New Zealand. That is a wide scope. 

Note the Apostolic Church of which I speak only started in the early 1900`s after the Welsh Revival. There have been many who use that name but are not the same denomination. 

Now that the 5 fold ministries has been clarified, (or being) across the Body then we are all of `one-mind` so far and denominational names do not mean what they used to. As also other names, Baptist, and most denominations believe and practice that without having to have that name. 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

While the Lord was addressing the 11 apostles, the Lord also stated that all who believe in Him will do the miracles He did, and greater miracles.

Are you saying that Jesus said that WHEN He was commissioning the apostles?  

1 hour ago, luigi said:

So your saying that it was only about the 11 apostles, makes what He said about all who believe in Him doing the miracles He did, and greater miracles, void.

It would be helpful to quote the verse you are thinking of.  I need to see the context.

1 hour ago, luigi said:

I therefore do not agree with a perspective that denies the Word.

Neither do I.  

[Marilyn C]

To those who would like some detail of my grandfather and uncle.

In WW1 my grandfather was shot and lay on the battle field for 3 days with a boot full of blood. He cried out to God that if he saved him he would serve him all his days. 

Then my uncle was training as a pilot in WW2. One day he took off and a another young pilot took off too close to him. They hit and both came down in a fiery crash. My uncle survived but one of his legs gave him trouble all his life. 

They were both marked by an important requirement, a sign of an Apostle - patience.

``truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you in all patience, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.` (2 Cor. 12: 12) 

If the Apostleship needs anything, it needs patience. It is a divine virtue, "The God of all patience." Without patience we can, as an Apostleship, squander what we have received. We can fail to finish the course.

Then what of faithfulness? In Hebrews 3: 1 - 2 Christ Who is spoken of as `the Apostle` was declared to be `faithful to Him that appointed Him.` The true Apostles were men that were faithful to the end.

The Apostles, the messengers, the sent-ones finished their circuit in the perfect will of God at the feet of the glorious Christ Who sent them.

Patience and faithfulness are lovely jewels set side by side. Humility is a virtue of an Apostleship that magnifies the Master, it is another sign. neither as being `Lords over God`s heritage...` What is more wonderful than the meekness and humility of the Apostle-Christ? That is the spirit!

Listen to true Apostleship! "Have I committed an offence in abasing myself? (2 Cor. 11: 7) How it humbles us when we think of the exalted ministry if this servant of God. What of this? "Ye have reigned as kings...God has set forth us the Apostles last..." (1 Cor. 4: 8 & 9)

All these and many other such virtue signs have their base in holiness, the great virtue sign, "Holy Apostles and Prophets...` (Eph. 3: 5)

Power needs passion to balance and control it. So does vision demand virtue. The supernatural calls for the practical in both cases. Vision must be accompanied by virtue for "Without holiness no man can see God."

Let us then pray for a greater world-wide manifestation and recognition of Apostleship and for its development in power and grace. It is Christ`s own persona gift and appointment. 

reference: `One Lord, One Faith,` By (Apostle) W.A.C. Rowe. (my first pastor) 1960

[luigi]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Are you saying that Jesus said that WHEN He was commissioning the apostles?  

It would be helpful to quote the verse you are thinking of.  I need to see the context.

Neither do I.  

The verse I quoted was John 14:12; and what I said was that everyone who is not double minded and believes solely on Christ, will do the miracles that Christ did, and do even greater miracles, as Christ says in the passage. I also said that when one is not double minded and believes solely on Christ, is what constitutes a true disciple of Christ.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

I did answer your arguments. I said -

Those qualifications were ONLY for the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, (for Israel). They were to witness to Israel of the Lord and Christ. (Acts 2; 36)

The other Apostles were given when Christ ascended to the Father and are for the building up of the Body of Christ. The 5 fold ministries are of Christ`s Headship and certainly needed till we come to full maturity as a Body in Christ. (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

Then I gave a list of 8 Apostles of the ascended Lord. None of those walked with the Lord or saw Him ascend. That was NOT the qualifications of the Apostles to the Body of Christ.

 

You are an astute lady with a good command of English. Acts 2:36 dos not say anything of the sort. Peter addressed an audience that represented "all Israel" - it being the Feast of Pentecost and many pious men from the diaspora being in Jerusalem. It says nothing of the Apostles' qualifications. Added to this Peter went to Cornelius, just to void your theory. I do not pit Galatians 2 against Acts 10 either, for there is a very g0od reason why Peter was selected by the risen Lord to go to the Gentiles. Both the Gentile Believers (Acts 10) and Baptism in Jesus name (Acts 19) must be connected to the events at Jerusalem so that none of the coming False Christs could claim to be the initiator of the Christian religion. All is traced to that fateful Passover and the (known) and witnessed empty tomb. Peter, chiefest of Apostles, must be the unmovable  connection to Jesus Christ (as was manifest at Jesus' trial).

To the rest, you exercise your right to ignore my arguments. Well and good. But your silence tells all. How simple it would have been to answer the question about God laying foundations again and again.