The Woman In Transgression

[Sower]

8 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Please can you verify some of the speculations? 

Is the surely die one of the speculations? 

How can we know what is the "surely die"? 

Please 

 

Genesis 2:16-17 New King James Version.
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

[WilliamL]

On 8/21/2024 at 11:02 AM, other one said:

But she still didn't understand what she was doing was wrong until she ate of it.

On 8/21/2024 at 11:31 AM, Mr. M said:

I was not suggesting she understood what was wrong at any time! 

 

Why is this so hard to understand?? God said 'don't do it.' She did it. He did it.

So what was her transgression? Quite simply, the original transgression of Satan: rebellion against the Word of God.

Her being deceived doesn't change the fact that she rebelled, no matter what the reason or cause.

All rebellion, from Satan's on down, stems from denying the Divine Word, in whatever form it takes. Including the form of a Son of Man.

[other one]

34 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Why is this so hard to understand?? God said 'don't do it.' She did it. He did it.

So what was her transgression? Quite simply, the original transgression of Satan: rebellion against the Word of God.

Her being deceived doesn't change the fact that she rebelled, no matter what the reason or cause.

All rebellion, from Satan's on down, stems from denying the Divine Word, in whatever form it takes. Including the form of a Son of Man.

If three-year-old kids die, do they go to hell?

[WilliamL]

4 minutes ago, other one said:

If three-year-old kids die, do they go to hell?

Adam and Eve were full-grown adults, who had been with the Lord face-to-face for quite some time. They cannot be compared to 3-year-olds.

[other one]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Adam and Eve were full-grown adults, who had been with the Lord face-to-face for quite some time. They cannot be compared to 3-year-olds.

Just like three-year-olds, they did not know good from evil.  They did not understand what sin was, just like a three-year-old.   You are assuming that Adam and Eve were normal adults like us, and they were not.

God also just told them they would die, he didn't say they would go to hell.

[Sower]

25 minutes ago, other one said:

Just like three-year-olds, they did not know good from evil.  They did not understand what sin was, just like a three-year-old.   You are assuming that Adam and Eve were normal adults like us, and they were not.

God also just told them they would die, he didn't say they would go to hell.

I do not remember, but up until that time, I saw no reference to any thing, man or animal, dying. How could eve understand the meaning of death/dying?

[Mr. M]

12 minutes ago, Sower said:

I do not remember, but up until that time, I saw no reference to any thing, man or animal, dying. How could eve understand the meaning of death/dying?

It never has and never will be about understanding, just obedience.

For example, why would the Jewish people understand some of the dietary restrictions? and yet they were expected to not eat what God had said was unclean. Jews are not to eat shellfish, regardless of understanding why.

In Louisiana, there are many who indulge heavily into local seafood, including crabs, shrimp and crayfish. We now know just how nasty those foods are, but people still eat them. If they respected the wisdom of God's Word they would not. Heavy shellfish eaters in Louisiana have a high likelihood of congestive heart failure.

If God says don't, then just don't. Don't ask why, and don't experiment or your life will be cut short. So much of Torah is wisdom for life, to avoid the "plagues of Egypt and Canaan". 

Deuteronomy 7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which you know, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

[Your closest friendnt]

17 hours ago, Sower said:

I do not remember, but up until that time, I saw no reference to any thing, man or animal, dying. How could eve understand the meaning of death/dying?

She will later on. But when?

The first time they experience that it was when they witnessed God killed some animals to make covers for them. 

They were witnessed because they had to learn how to do it them selves, how to killed them and God reminded them that they are allowed to kill the animals for their different needs. 

But Eve said something that we should consider when she that "you will surely die" as suppose that "you will die".

We can tell from chapter three in Genesis that they did not died at the time when they ate from the forbidden fruit.  And not only they did not die but the Lord blessed them with a long life and many children. 

We also know that the Lord continued to give them His fellowship in a likely manner as when they were living in the Garden. 

There is nothing to suggest anything else. And the same thing happened with their children and not only Adam and Eve whom the Lord accepted them in his presence. 

Hope we understand that this can only happen because they were righteous people.  

The Lord out of the Garden He gave his fellowship to righteous people. And Kaine had also his fellowship and we have the witnessed that he was used to be in His presence till the Judgement of God after Kaine killed his brother Abel. 

We do not see a separation from God from Adam and Eve and their children. 

Their dosobedience to eat from the fruit they were not supposed to eat did not cause their separation from God while they were alive and while they remain righteous. 

The surely die has not yet be seen. Their separation from God has not yet happened but it was coming as it came to Abel at the time when he died. This is the time, the first time that Abel was separated from the presence of God. At the time of his death. The surely die no one could be excepted from it. All mankind will be subject to it at the time of their death. But with the peculiar exception with Abraham and his chosen descendants. 

And all this will change at the time of the death of Jesus Christ. The time Jesus Christ crushed the head of the Serpent and stripped him from his default authority to harvest mankind but Abraham and his children. 

Jesus Christ said all authority has been given to Me by the Heavenly Father. I have the Keys of Death and Hades. Every knee shall bow down before me. 

For Adam and Eve and their children and their children's children God was their God as long as they lived and they were  seperated from God at the time of their death. Unless they committed some Act that God had to seperated himself from them while they still lived, as it happened with Kaine. 

When death came to them they were seperated from their God they were not together and they were not gathered to Him after they died.  That was the default inheritance for mankind. 

Kaine because of his sin was seperated from God and he lived the rest of his life without the presence of God when he was seperated from God while yet he lived at the time when he killed his brother Abel. And his children were born and lived in Kaine's separation from God. 

At that time before Abraham and before Jesus Christ.  The default inheritance for mankind. No one went to Heaven to be with God at the time of their death. Till the time God gave Jesus Christ the Heaven as his Inheritance and not only for him but for everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. God made him the head of his people who were in him. In his redemtion in the Atonement made by his blood. Jesus the Lamb of God who died for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world. Till Jesus Christ opened the way to Heaven for Mankind. Those who believe in him. 

 

Edited August 23, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[WilliamL]

On 8/22/2024 at 5:10 PM, other one said:

Just like three-year-olds, they did not know good from evil.  They did not understand what sin was, just like a three-year-old.   You are assuming that Adam and Eve were normal adults like us, and they were not.

God also just told them they would die, he didn't say they would go to hell.

 

On 8/22/2024 at 6:10 PM, Mr. M said:

It never has and never will be about understanding, just obedience.

Bingo. To argue otherwise is to say -- like some of the Gnostics did, as well as many today -- that the OT God was a mean and arbitrary God.

When a parent tells his three-year old child not to go into the street, his child does not need to understand -- he  may not be able to understand -- the reasons why. But he does need to be obedient, and if he is not, then the parent must exact a punishment upon him that merits the seriousness of his disobedience. A punishment that he will never forget.

[other one]

Oh yeah,   listen to me Kid, if you go into that street you are going to die in about 8 to 900 years...   Really great comparisons.