Are We Mistaken In The Teaching Of The Pre-trib Rapture????

[Keras]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not a 'rapture' as popularized by pretrib dispensationalists, but there is a gathering of the elect as prophesied in Matt 24.

Which is plainly stated to happen when Jesus Returns. Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess 4:16-17   He will be in Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:4, and those who remain alive, will be transported there. 

The scriptures saying we are not appointed to Gods wrath, do not in any way mean removal, but that God will protect His people as they pass through it all. Psalms 23, Isaiah 43:2, +

 

[WilliamL]

On 8/24/2024 at 7:22 AM, Progressive Truth said:

Hate to be a bearer of bad news, but for believers as well as unbelievers the tribulation will be earth's darkest hour(Period of time) that is why it is referred as the "time of wrath." (Dan. 8:19)

Pure spec on your part, without any evidence to support it.

[Progressive Truth]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Pure spec on your part, without any evidence to support it.

Please explain the sixth trumpet judgement, and seven last bowls, the mark of the beast? 

[Diaste]

On 8/24/2024 at 6:52 AM, Progressive Truth said:

Absolutely! but that gathering/harvest is at the end of the tribulation during as you know both saints and unbelievers shall experience. 

So the scripture indicates. 

[Diaste]

On 8/24/2024 at 7:22 AM, Progressive Truth said:

Hate to be a bearer of bad news, but for believers as well as unbelievers the tribulation will be earth's darkest hour(Period of time) that is why it is referred as the "time of wrath." (Dan. 8:19) All will experience God's wrath during the trumpet judgements, and Satan's wrath, including much killing because of the "Mark" Satan will impose. You most understand, that the tribulation has been predetermined by the Father, as a means of testing all the living, just before Jesus returns. Who will the living choose to worship, God or Satan. This is a time when the livings faith will be tested. At the end of the seven trumpet judgements God's offer of salvation ends, all decisions will be made. Those who choose to worship Christ will have His seal, those who refuse will have Satan's literal mark. Then the seven last bowl judgements are poured out (God's full wrath) on the wicked only, then Christ returns. 

To keep, or watch over, is to be understood in the same sense in which the disciples, early believers, and the reformers were faithful unto death. God's spirit will be poured out to keep ones faith strong to the very end of their trial.

I understand, but you seem to have made a prophetic casserole.

GT is not wrath. The elect are not subject to wrath. The elect will be in the time of 'great tribulation that was not nor ever will be again.', but that is not God's wrath.

You can believe as you like, but given the great mercies and love of our Father repentance and salvation are never off the table until the books are opened, the book of life is opened, and the name is either found or not found in the book of life.

I personally cannot judge who lives or dies or who is saved or not saved. 

The point I was making about 'keep watch' is that it's not a removal, but a guard over while within. 

 

[Diaste]

On 8/26/2024 at 5:39 PM, Progressive Truth said:

Please explain the sixth trumpet judgement, and seven last bowls, the mark of the beast? 

The sixth seal is a herald of the arrival of Jesus and impending wrath. It's going to be terrifying for sure. I see no judgement here. I do see the preparation for judgment, for the unleashing of the bowls. 

Also, at the 6th seal, the gathering occurs. I have never seen the trumps called judgements in all scripture. I do see 3 of them called woes. 

In fact I wonder if any of the seals trumps or bowls are any kind of judgement at all. 

I do see judgment in Matt 25:31-46.

I see judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

I see in the 8 occurrence of the concept of 'judge' the authority to judge, the impending judgement, the judgment of Babylon, but not the type of judgment you refer to. I only see the action of judgement of the people in Rev 20:11-15 when it's said the dead are 'judged' by what is written in the books. 

Edited August 28, 2024 by Diaste
I didn't respond correctly. In fact, I may have have misread the entire post. My apologies.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

I think there will be a man made staged rapture.
People wake up one day and their loved ones are just gone,
all over the world people just go missing,
and they call it the 'rapture'.

And then what seems to be a false prophet
beheading Christians.

And then what seems to be Jesus saving the day.

 

And so the idea and doctrine of a 'rapture'
of people just suddenly disappearing,
has been a deception, part of the deception leading to the real anti-Christ.

[Progressive Truth]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

GT is not wrath. The elect are not subject to wrath. The elect will be in the time of 'great tribulation that was not nor ever will be again.', but that is not God's wrath.

What prophecies describe the events of the tribulation as you understand it?

In your view are the trumpets of Rev. 8, past or future, and who sent/sends them?

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

You can believe as you like, but given the great mercies and love of our Father repentance and salvation are never off the table until the books are opened, the book of life is opened, and the name is either found or not found in the book of life.

You state, "until the books are open, the book of life is opened," I believe you are referring to (Rev. 20:12) as it is the only texts that mentions that books (plural/books of individuals deeds, by which all are judged) and at the same time the last of seven seals on the book of life is opened. Prophectic chronology places this GWTJ here on the earth after the saints return, having spent a thousand year reign with Christ in heaven.

Are we in agreement on this?

However, between the seventh trumpet, and the return of Christ in which He gathers up His saints and takes them to heaven, we have the seven bowl judgements of Rev. 16. I understand the third angles message of (Rev. 14:9-11) is a warning to all living at that time, and their fate if they should receive the devils mark. They shall receive the full wrath of God as mentioned in the seven bowl judgements.

Do you believe that salvation is still on the table for those who receive the mark and experience the bowl judgements, since these events proceed the GWTJ by a thousand years?

[enoob57]

You can draw a picture even speak directly to them but still they refuse to hear or see…Revelation consist of this
 

Revelation 1:19 (KJV)

¹⁹Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

So after The Lord speaks of the Church Rev 1-3 The Lord raptures the Church 

 

Revelation 4:1 (KJV)

¹After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

then the Church returns with Jesus Rev 19 … it’s that simple, that exact …
 

[Progressive Truth]

On 8/27/2024 at 5:07 AM, Diaste said:

The sixth trumpet is a herald of the arrival of Jesus and impending wrath. It's going to be terrifying for sure. I see no judgement here. I do see the preparation for judgment, for the unleashing of the bowls. 

Certainly the sixth trumpet is opened before the coming of Christ but note this  action originates from heaven. When the sixth trumpet sounds in heaven, four demonic angels (that were released from the abyss along with Satan and all of his angles in the fifth trumpet appear on earth in human form) are given authority from God too kill a third of mankind.

Note (Rev. 13:4-7) Satan gives his power to the beast from the sea, and working through it, he will in a short time defeats Gods people. This is how it happens: When the fifth trumpet sounds He appears on earth. When the sixth trumpets sounds he does away with the beast of the sea and sets himself up as Lord of Lords and King of Kings of all the earth, establishing a one would church/state.  He then sets up His mark. and this is when a third of mankind is killed.

On 8/27/2024 at 5:07 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/27/2024 at 5:07 AM, Diaste said:

Also, at the 6th trump, the gathering occurs. I have never seen the trumps called judgements in all scripture. I do see 3 of them called woes. 

In fact I wonder if any of the seals trumps or bowls are any kind of judgement at all. 

 

You can read the story of Noah and the destruction of the earth by a flood, and not find the word, "judgement" used in the account. But everyone understands, I'm sure you as well, that it was because God had determined it was to wicked, therefore He pasted judgement on it and destroyed it. In the same way even through the seven trumpets and seven bowls are not called judgements, there is no doubt they come from God. Each of the first four trumpets send by God, effect a third of the earth specifically. First trumpet: meteorite shower of burning hail, third of the trees and grass consumed. Second trumpet: Astroid hits and ocean, third of ships destroyed and a third of the sea life. Third trumpet: Blazing star/Astroid hits a land mass. causes the earths crust to fracture, spilling toxic pollutants into river, streams and underground aqua streams and poisons the water, many die. Forth trumpet: The sun, moon, and stars to not provide light on the earth. Without light crops can't mature, therefore famine follows. 

Two questions, First how can each of these physical events from God, fall upon a third of the earth and not effect both the righteous and the unrighteous? Israel was sent into Babylon captivity for their rebellion against God.  Daniel and his three friends that were thrown into the furnace were among them, as was Ezekiel.  My point is that when God punished the nation of Israel, the righteous and the unrighteous suffered as well. 

2nd, doesn't it seem reasonable (its ok to use common sense and reasoning here) that before God sends the trumpets He has predetermined (passed judgement) that the world is just as wicked, as in the time of Noah, therefore He is justified in sending his wrath/anger upon them, in the form of these trumpets. Is it then unreasonable to call them judgements?

Edited August 30, 2024 by Progressive Truth
better clarity