Faith vs. Saving Faith

[Dennis1209]

This will probably be the mother of threads in length, but I will try to limit it to 2-3 pots of coffee for those that can endure.

We started discussing this in another thread talking about Nicodemus. As usual, I began drifting off-topic, so I transferred that drifting to here. The questions I started to ask:

• Was Nicodemus saved?
• Did Nicodemus possess saving faith?
• What is saving faith, even the devils believe?
• Is there such a thing as a closet Christian (fire insurance)?

Our new pastor started a Bible study titled “Levels of Faith.” On the second Wednesday night of study, I asked him to return to ground zero, quantify faith, and explain how much faith translates into saving faith (Salvation-eternal life-the process). His answer reaffirmed what I have been studying for quite some time: is there a difference? I fretted over this question for a long time, and it wasn't very pleasant.  

According to the apostle Paul in Romans 12:3, 2 Cor. 10:15, and Eph. 4:13, everyone who asks is given a measure of faith. I assume that measure is not proportional to each individual. Most start with the milk, and faith is to grow from there.

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

I use mustard seeds in some of my canning. They are among the smallest seeds and can grow into some of the most significant trees, as I have seen in pictures from Israel. In other words, a minuscule of faith.

I have heard R. C. Sproul explain it this way when someone was concerned and questioned him about saving faith. He asked the person about his love and the two greatest commandments:

1. Do you love Jesus perfectly? His answer was no.
2. Do you love Jesus as much as you should? Again, his answer was no.
3. Well, do you at least love Jesus a little? His answer was affirmative.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In James' example above, does this man possess saving faith, or is he lazy, useless, or a closet Christian?

What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Who would be with Him that day in Paradise? The thief had no chance or opportunity to perform any works for the kingdom of Christ. There is no mention of repentance, asking for forgiveness of his sins, or public confession of Jesus as his Savior. Jesus had not died yet, so the thief was still under the OT Law and Covenant, was he not?

We know the story of Nicodemus going to inquire about Jesus at night. Jesus lovely mentored Nicodemus one-on-one. Ye must be born again, not by water but by spirit.

At significant risk, Nicodemus performed what James above would write later, works. His faith was alive, not dead.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

To the point: I think it is obvious there are different levels and stages of faith. We are to aspire to grow. Some people have more faith and trust in Jesus than others. Would you agree? All who ask the Lord for forgiveness and Salvation are given a measure of faith. I interpret James and Paul as saying that we are each given different levels of faith and knowledge. It is what we do with what is given to us.

How about the closet Christian with faith the size of a mustard seed who did no work for the kingdom of Jesus? Is that saving faith?

James 2:14 (KJV) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [Can you have one without the other? I submit no.]

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Is saving faith conditional with true repentance, change of heart, lifestyle, and attitude?

There is a lot to discuss here. How do you all view the difference between faith and saving faith, if any?

 

[missmuffet]

Here are some levels of faith:

Little Faith	We can see great signs and wonders and still have little faith.
Genuine Faith	This faith is sincere and real; solid and unchanging.
Growing Faith	Our faith must always be growing.
Unwavering Faith	Unwavering faith is steady; holding on to God's Word.

[BornAgain490]

I heard a pastor once say: "If you're on the fence as to whether you're going to submit and commit to Christ, just remember: the fence belongs to Satan. You're either in Christ or you're not."  

Jesus made it very clear, crystal clear: "You must be born again." 

If you're not born again, it doesn't matter what you say or how you say it or how many times you say it.  Unless you're born again, you're still lost. 

If you are born again, you will know it because God will convict you of your absolute need to know that you belong to Him.  

I pray this blesses you. 

[missmuffet]

6 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

I heard a pastor once say: "If you're on the fence as to whether you're going to submit and commit to Christ, just remember: the fence belongs to Satan. You're either in Christ or you're not."  

Jesus made it very clear, crystal clear: "You must be born again." 

If you're not born again, it doesn't matter what you say or how you say it or how many times you say it.  Unless you're born again, you're still lost. 

If you are born again, you will know it because God will convict you of your absolute need to know that you belong to Him.  

I pray this blesses you. 

You worship God or you worship Satan. There is no in-between.

[D. Adrien]

Saving faith may also differ in intensity or strength with each Christian. A preacher usually will have more saving faith than a believer who has not yet progressed very far within the teachings of Christianity. The successful practicing of Christianity will increase intensity of faith through the seeing and the experiencing spiritual growth along with praying for an increase in faith. I suppose works may improve the quality of faith.

[Cntrysner]

Faith is in Christ, His faith in the Father is imputed to us when we are placed into His body. Our part is to realize we are lost in sin and without hope then we are fit to freely receive Christ's unconditional love. His love for us givens us all things including saving faith. Christ came into this world to save sinners of who I am chief.

[Neighbor]

13 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Our faith must always be growing.

Hi, Begs the question (From me anyway) if one thinks and declares they have perfect discernment regarding their own faith already, how do they then grow further in their own faith? 

How does that work?

[kwikphilly]

@Dennis1209  thanks for the link,I have to get my chores done,get the coffee ready and I will read when I've time to sit and stay put- I don't want to quickly read and run because I'm sure this will be fun and profitable ❤️

[PATrobas]

15 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

This will probably be the mother of threads in length, but I will try to limit it to 2-3 pots of coffee for those that can endure.

We started discussing this in another thread talking about Nicodemus. As usual, I began drifting off-topic, so I transferred that drifting to here. The questions I started to ask:

• Was Nicodemus saved?
• Did Nicodemus possess saving faith?
• What is saving faith, even the devils believe?
• Is there such a thing as a closet Christian (fire insurance)?

Our new pastor started a Bible study titled “Levels of Faith.” On the second Wednesday night of study, I asked him to return to ground zero, quantify faith, and explain how much faith translates into saving faith (Salvation-eternal life-the process). His answer reaffirmed what I have been studying for quite some time: is there a difference? I fretted over this question for a long time, and it wasn't very pleasant.  

According to the apostle Paul in Romans 12:3, 2 Cor. 10:15, and Eph. 4:13, everyone who asks is given a measure of faith. I assume that measure is not proportional to each individual. Most start with the milk, and faith is to grow from there.

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

I use mustard seeds in some of my canning. They are among the smallest seeds and can grow into some of the most significant trees, as I have seen in pictures from Israel. In other words, a minuscule of faith.

I have heard R. C. Sproul explain it this way when someone was concerned and questioned him about saving faith. He asked the person about his love and the two greatest commandments:

1. Do you love Jesus perfectly? His answer was no.
2. Do you love Jesus as much as you should? Again, his answer was no.
3. Well, do you at least love Jesus a little? His answer was affirmative.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In James' example above, does this man possess saving faith, or is he lazy, useless, or a closet Christian?

What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Who would be with Him that day in Paradise? The thief had no chance or opportunity to perform any works for the kingdom of Christ. There is no mention of repentance, asking for forgiveness of his sins, or public confession of Jesus as his Savior. Jesus had not died yet, so the thief was still under the OT Law and Covenant, was he not?

We know the story of Nicodemus going to inquire about Jesus at night. Jesus lovely mentored Nicodemus one-on-one. Ye must be born again, not by water but by spirit.

At significant risk, Nicodemus performed what James above would write later, works. His faith was alive, not dead.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

To the point: I think it is obvious there are different levels and stages of faith. We are to aspire to grow. Some people have more faith and trust in Jesus than others. Would you agree? All who ask the Lord for forgiveness and Salvation are given a measure of faith. I interpret James and Paul as saying that we are each given different levels of faith and knowledge. It is what we do with what is given to us.

How about the closet Christian with faith the size of a mustard seed who did no work for the kingdom of Jesus? Is that saving faith?

James 2:14 (KJV) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [Can you have one without the other? I submit no.]

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Is saving faith conditional with true repentance, change of heart, lifestyle, and attitude?

There is a lot to discuss here. How do you all view the difference between faith and saving faith, if any?

 

There seems to be much mis-understanding on this subject and to sort it out we must look first to the source of faith. Romans 10:17 Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. It does not say faith comes by simply reading the Word or even hearing it read or preached but rather it comes by hearing and the hearing of what? (or better who) which is the living Word of God - Jesus. It is the faith of Christ, Hebrews 12:2. We hear His voice (John 10:27) and make the decision to either obey or turn away, (thus hardening our heart.) When we obey His voice, God then calls that decision 'our faith' and He puts it to our account. (Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.)

If we look at this section of Luke in context we can begin to understand the meaning of the mustard seed faith.

Luke 17:5  And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. :6  And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. :7  But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? :8  And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? :9  Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. :10  So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

There is no heading break nor break in thought between vs. 6 and 7. They continue His thought. Jesus was telling them how faith works. He is not telling them to buck up and get more faith, He is telling them that faith doesn't originate with them, it originates in God. If we had even the tiniest amount of faith (in order to exhibit the power of God) we would be going about to try and impress each other by moving mountains and throwing trees into the sea, exhibiting how full of faith we were compared to others. Have you seen any mountains being moved or trees growing in the sea lately? I haven't. This tells me that we don't have even a teeny bit of faith of OURSELVES. But, if the will of God is to move a mountain or toss a tree and He tells us to speak thusly, then the mountain and tree will do what God commands them to do using us as His servants.

So, in the parable, He is comparing us to the servants and the owner as God. The owner provides the direction to his servants of what the work is he wants done. The servants duty is to listen and obey until all the work for the day is done then they shall fulfill their needs to eat. They have added nothing to the owners estate but only have done what he asks. (unprofitable). The servant doesn't tell the owner what to do or how it should be done.

Likewise we are never to use 'our faith' to dictate to God what He should do at our command, as if believing in God will give us supernatural power. It won't. But if we hear His voice (the will of God) and obey it (agreeing with Him as to His will) then we will see God work. Ehenever God works, it is 'supernatural', so that even the simplest of tasks done by faith are miracles; i.e. God is working in us both to will and do of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

So, to answer your question Dennis, saving faith, working faith, insurance faith are all just adjectives describing the results (or lack thereof) of the faith of Christ working in us and us responding to His commands. Look at Eph. 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: The faith is what is not of ourselves. It is of God. When we respond positively, it is counted to us for righteousness.

[AnOrangeCat]

15 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Is there such a thing as a closet Christian (fire insurance)?

There's a lot of interesting stuff in your post. For the sake of time and keeping things in digestible chunks I'll only go over a few at a time. I'd say yes to this. The Bible tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and Jesus reminded us that we should fear God as He can destroy us body and soul if He chooses. Ideally we move on from fear and into a relationship of love, realizing that God isn't out to get us and actually does love us, but I think for some they never move on. The very famous Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God sermon seemed to operate in fear as an initial motivator.

The thing is God sees our hearts. He can tell the difference between someone who thinks sitting on a pew in church and saying a few prayers every now and then and someone who's trying to walk in Christ even if the motivation is fear/fire insurance.

 

16 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Who would be with Him that day in Paradise? The thief had no chance or opportunity to perform any works for the kingdom of Christ. There is no mention of repentance, asking for forgiveness of his sins, or public confession of Jesus as his Savior. Jesus had not died yet, so the thief was still under the OT Law and Covenant, was he not?

I personally feel like this is a bit deeper than it might seem on the surface level. At first glance yes, it seems like he did nothing for the kingdom. The way I've come to look at it is that he believed, but then he spoke. He asked. It's a not immediately obvious example of faith paired with works. How many people have been moved toward God because this man believed the One dying on a cross next to him was the Son of God? In showing contrition and daring to ask to be remembered he became a powerful witness for God's mercy. Truly an example of God using the lowly. We don't even know the man's name but because of what little he did one could argue he's been witnessing for thousands of years.