The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Dude.... 

What are you talking about?

Sport......

I'm talking about two raptures, Gentiles and 12 tribes.

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Earlier, you stated that there is a wheat harvest and a grape harvest.

There is a grain harvest and a fruit harvest. Do you not understand the Feasts of God? and what they represent?

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Now you are saying that there are two fig harvests as well?

They represent the same two raptures as grain and fruit.

Hosea 8

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

 

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

You forgot all the other harvests in Israel. You may as well have a rapture in those harvests too,

The grain and fruit harvests cover it all.

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

whatever floats your boat ... 

Fact and truth will get er done.

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

that would make, I don't know, about 7 or 8 rapture/harvests.

 

The spring barley harvest..........The dead in Christ rise.........Passover harvest feast.

The summer wheat harvest.........The alive that remained.......The true Pentecost harvest feast.

The fall fruit harvest.....The seed of the woman, twelve tribes.....Feast of Trumpets

 

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, The Light said:

Baalpeor is just Baal being worshiped by the Moabites on Peor mountain. 

Shalom, @The Light.

Sorry, brother, but פְּעוֹר or "P`owr" ("Peor") means a "GAP" or a "CLEFT" in the rock. It's not the name of a particular mountain. We just know it was on the east side of the Jordan River in what today is called "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan," mainly because that is where MoaV ("Moab") used to be.

23 hours ago, The Light said:

As for there is no Baal today, I don't think you understand who Baal is.

Well, I don't understand that בַעַל or "Ba'al" is what SOME think he is. The name means "lord" or "master" and it was just a title for a tribal god of MoaV. If you want to believe he was another name for HaSatan (Hebrew for "The Enemy"), go for it, but DO NOT teach it as fact! Say instead, "I BELIEVE him to be HaSatan." That's more honest.

Furthermore, mention of him in Hosea 9:10 is NOT the future to us. It is the PAST! It was the god of Moab to whom the children of Israel in the north gave worship and angered their TRUE, INFINITE God YHWH.

23 hours ago, The Light said:

John 10 

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So many of you want to jump right to the end after the cake is baked. You want to skip the ingredients and the steps necessary to make the cake.

Those who are Christ's at His coming will be the Gentiles first as the Gentiles currently hear His voice. This is the first fold. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, blindness will be removed from part of Israel. Then they will hear His voice. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest.......they that are Christs at His coming will be raptured before the wrath of God.

There are two folds, just as the Word says. Christ will come for the 1st fold pretrib. Then Christ will return for the second fold prewrath.

Actually, the FIRST fold would be the children of Israel. Gentiles are the "add-on." However, He shall have "ONE FOLD!" In Ephesians 2, Paul said to the Gentile Ephesians within the body there,

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by that which is called "the Circumcision" in the flesh made by hands; 12 That AT THAT TIME ye were without Christ (outside of the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (the citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without (outside of) God in the world: 

13 BUT NOW in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeeshuwa`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (of the Messiah). 14 For HE IS OUR PEACE, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, AND HATH BROKEN DOWN THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION BETWEEN US; 15 HAVING ABOLISHED IN HIS FLESH THE ENMITY, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; FOR TO MAKE IN HIMSELF OF TWAIN (TWO) ONE NEW MAN, SO MAKING PEACE; 16 AND THAT HE MIGHT RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD IN ONE BODY BY THE CROSS, HAVING SLAIN THE ENMITY THEREBY: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh (close; near). 18 For through him we BOTH have access BY ONE SPIRIT unto the Father.

19 NOW THEREFORE ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS WITH THE SAINTS, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (CAPSTONE); 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So, the Gentiles became "fellowcitizens with the holy ones (saints)." That would leave the children of Israel that had been displaced into Ephesus to be the "holy ones" - the ones washed and made clean to be set apart for God. One doesn't have to RIGHTEOUS to be HOLY (although it is an added blessing)! In fact, the two words are not on the same axis; they are TWO DIFFERENT measurements, as different as the y-axis is different than the x-axis on a Cartesian graph. The children of Israel are the HOLY ONES, and have been since they were led out of Egypt! They are the "people of the Book," and have been since the Scriptures were first written down by Mosheh ("Moses"). They are the ones through whom the Messiah was to come, and they are the primary subjects of His Kingdom. Yeeshuwa` is to be the King of Israel, just as were the other messiahs, David, Shlomoh ("Solomon"), and the kings of the Southern Kingdom of Yhudah ("Judah"). It's just that HE is the ULTIMATE Messiah, of whom it is said, "He shall reign over the house of Jacob FOR EVER; and of His kingdom THERE SHALL BE NO END!" (Luke 1:33).

And, just to be clear, this is NOT talking about "His church," defined as we define a "church" today, and ESPECIALLY NOT a "church" in "Heaven" that differs from the children of Israel!

23 hours ago, The Light said:

You're welcome.

LOL!

23 hours ago, The Light said:

Actually, I think the Jewish Church is considered the Chosen Bride. There are two brides as Jacob had two wives.

Nah, He said "ONE body." Remember: Yeeshuwa` Himself reminded the P'ruwshiym ("Pharisees"),

Matthew 19:4-6 (KJV)

4 And he answered and said unto them,

"Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female (Genesis 1:27), 5 And said,

"For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh" (Genesis 2:24)? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain (TWO), but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

Both "ἄρσεν" ("arsen") and "θῆλυ" ("theelu"), "male" and "female," are singular in number. I don't think He would contradict Himself.

23 hours ago, The Light said:

You are barking up the tree if you think I do not understand these things. There are two folds. The Gentiles are the first fold. Then there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of the second fold. Then there is the harvest of the second fold seen here.

Nope. There's only ONE body comprised of Goyim ("Gentiles") and Yhudiym ("Jews"). There's NO DIFFERENCE between them IN THE MESSIAH! (And, the "Church" is NOT the name for that "body," either!)

23 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Or two folds can be in heaven for the marriage supper during the wrath of God just as the Word says.

Neither the Judgment Seat of Christ nor the Wedding Supper of the Lamb are "in Heaven!" Nor are either of them for a short period of time!

First, the JOB of a King of Israel is to be the SUPREME COURT JUSTICE for the Land! Just as David was (2 Samuel 8:15) and Shlomoh was (1 Kings 3:5-28) before Him, He shall be the Judge of Israel, indeed the Judge over the whole earth (John 5:25-30), by the end of the first 1,000 years of His Kingdom (1 Corinthians 15:20-28). His Judgment Seat, the Messiah's Judgment Seat (Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10), will exist throughout the Millennium and beyond! (Revelation 22:3-5).

Second, Yeeshuwa` said, "But verily (truly) I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God." (Matthew 26:29 and Mark 14:25).

See, as demonstrated in His first miracle at Kana (Cana) of the Galiyl (See John 2:1-11), wine is associated with a marriage feast! So, why would He have His "Marriage Supper" without it?! Furthermore, He said to the Jews, "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.' (Psalm 118:26)" (Matthew 23:39).

So, the Marriage Supper is AFTER the Messiah has taken His throne over Israel!

23 hours ago, The Light said:

We can prove that your statement is incorrect with scripture. He is the Lord on the earth when He comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Revelation 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

I'm not disagreeing with you on this, but I don't think you're seeing the MAGNITUDE of this! The firstfruits are the first gatherings, out of the rest of the harvest, that are dedicated to YHWH God!

Second, "redeemed from the earth" - Greek: "ἠγορασμένοι ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς" = eegorasmenoi apo tees gees" = "they-had-been-bought-back away-from the land" - is referring to being "redeemed from all over the earth." They were also "redeemed from among men." He buys them back from their oppressors and has them delivered to Israel from all over the globe.

Consider Isaiah 49:

Isaiah 49:1-26

1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: [yet] surely my judgment [is] with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, [and] his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, [and] the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; 9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that [are] in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures [shall be] in all high places. 10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. 11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. 12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. 13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted. 14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. 15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. 16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of [my] hands; thy walls [are] continually before me. 17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee. 18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, [and] come to thee. [As] I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them [on thee], as a bride [doeth]. 19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away. 20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place [is] too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell. 21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where [had] they [been]? 22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in [their] arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon [their] shoulders. 23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with [their] face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me. 24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered? 25 But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children. 26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

 

Third, this is a voice "ek tou ouranou," which means "out of-the sky." It's a MEGAPHONE! a LOUD SPEAKER SYSTEM!

23 hours ago, The Light said:

Absolutely agree.

Absolutely agree.

I'm encouraged to see that you're at least understanding that neither the "tribulation" nor the "great tribulation" is the "7 years" or "3.5 years" of the Seventieth Week of Daniel 9:27. HOWEVER,...

23 hours ago, The Light said:

The 70th week was not split. The 70th week is about the people of Daniel. And we know the week is not split because there is a confirming of the covenant for one week.

One should NOT fall into the Preterist view and say that the whole of the Week ended at the stoning of Stephen!

Rather, one must undersand that the 70th Seven was the FIRST Seven years of the Messiah's introduction to Israel to be Israel's King - or rather, GOD'S choice for King in Israel! The six purposes for the Seventy Sevens of years are...

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, 

(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy. ..."

These have to do with the Messiah of God for Israel, Yeeshuwa` Natsratiy ("Jesus of-Nazareth"). He is "the most Holy" or "Holy of Holies" since the veil was split down the middle at His death on the cross. Therefore, we are looking forward to the anointing of Him as Israel's King (WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN THE FIRST CENTURY A.D!) Just as David reigned in Hebron over the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") for 7 years prior to his reign over all of Israel, so too shall Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God reign for 7 years. The covenant that was strengthened was the DAVIDIC Covenant, which Gabriel pronounced at Yeeshuwa`s CONCEPTION! Compare Luke 1:30-33 with 2 Samuel 7:12-16.

Read through the rest of Gabriel's words:

Daniel 9:25-27 (KJV)

25 "Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven (7) weeks, and (+) threescore and two (62) weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And AFTER threescore and two (> 62) weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. ..."

Consider this: In English, "of the prince that shall come" is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE (with a subordinate clause), the preposition being the word "OF." A prepositional phrase can take on the properties of an adjective, if describing a noun, or an adverb, if describing a verb. The nouns within the prepositional phrase cannot be the subject or objects of the sentence.

The SAME is true in Hebrew! In Hebrew, the words "people of-prince" (עַם נָגִיד = `am naagiyd) is a NOUN CONSTRUCT STATE - two nouns placed back-to-back! As such the second noun is subordinate and descriptive of the first noun. It is USUALLY translated with the word "of" in between. A quick example is "ben David" meaning "son OF David." In the same way, the second noun cannot be the subject of a verb in the sentence.

27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Now, in the English translations, we've ended the sentence in verse 26 with a period, but Hebrew doesn't use such punctuation, and the antecedent for the verbs in verse 27 is not found in verse 27. The Hebrew sentence doesn't end in verse 26! So, to find the antecedent for the verbs in verse 27 one must go back to verse 26, and as previously noted, it cannot be "prince" which is subordinate to "people." One must go back farther to find a nominative, masculine, singular, personal noun (since the verbs show mascuilne and singular forms). The only noun that fits is "מָשִׁיחַ" "maashiyach" or transliterated as "Messiah" in verse 26.

Therefore, the antecedent of the verbs in verse 27 is "Messiah" in verse 26!

Substituting the noun for the pronouns in verse 27, we get ...

27 "And the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the Messiah shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations the Messiah shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Knowing that this is the Davidic Covenant in verse 27 means that He strengthens that Covenant for a 7-year period, just as His ancestor David did when he reigned for 7 years in Hebron. Gabriel said He would fulfill the Davidic Covenant in Luke 1:30-33, and the wise men confirmed that He was the King of the Jews! Furthermore, the scribes (transcribers of the Tanakh or Old Testament) confirmed the Messiah's birth would be in Beit-Lechem ("House of Bread," "Bethlehem") in Judah.

The Messiah DID "cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" when His death on the cross became the ULTIMATE Sacrifice for sin, and God was satisfied. (Isaiah 53).

MORE to come....

23 hours ago, The Light said:

None of this agrees with the Word of God.

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest. He will remain in clouds and gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper during the one year wrath of God.

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile when the two folds become one fold. 

 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @The Light.

Sorry, brother, but פְּעוֹר or "P`owr" ("Peor") means a "GAP" or a "CLEFT" in the rock. It's not the name of a particular mountain. 

Sorry brother, the Word is our proof.

Numbers 23

28 And Balak brought Balaam unto the top of Peor, that looketh toward jeshimon.

Peor is indeed a mountain where Baal was worshiped by the Moabites.

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Well, I don't understand that בַעַל or "Ba'al" is what SOME think he is. The name means "lord" or "master" and it was just a title for a tribal god of MoaV. If you want to believe he was another name for HaSatan (Hebrew for "The Enemy"), go for it, but DO NOT teach it as fact! Say instead, "I BELIEVE him to be HaSatan." That's more honest.

Baal is Nimrod the king of Babylon, the Assyrian who was and is not and will come again

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Actually, the FIRST fold would be the children of Israel. Gentiles are the "add-on." However, He shall have "ONE FOLD!" In Ephesians 2, Paul said to the Gentile Ephesians within the body there,

No sir. The first fold is the Gentiles. The Gentiles know that Jesus is the Messiah. They hear His voice. The Gentiles will be the first harvest.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

It is not until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in that blindness will be removed from part of Israel.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Nope. There's only ONE body comprised of Goyim ("Gentiles") and Yhudiym ("Jews"). There's NO DIFFERENCE between them IN THE MESSIAH! (And, the "Church" is NOT the name for that "body," either!)

Right. Two folds into one fold or one body. The Gentiles will be the first fold. Then blindness will be removed from part of Israel and the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. Then there will be 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes and they will be redeemed from the earth. Then there is the harvest of the 12 tribes from the earth at the 6th seal seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

All return to heaven for the marriage, during the wrath of God. We see them in heaven as the great multitude in Revelation 7

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Neither the Judgment Seat of Christ nor the Wedding Supper of the Lamb are "in Heaven!" Nor are either of them for a short period of time!

The marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven according to the Word of God.

Revelation 19

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Second, Yeeshuwa` said, "But verily (truly) I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God." (Matthew 26:29 and Mark 14:25).

See, as demonstrated in His first miracle at Kana (Cana) of the Galiyl (See John 2:1-11), wine is associated with a marriage feast! So, why would He have His "Marriage Supper" without it?! Furthermore, He said to the Jews, "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.' (Psalm 118:26)" (Matthew 23:39).

So, the Marriage Supper is AFTER the Messiah has taken His throne over Israel!

You are mistaken. You are proving you are in error. First off, we can see that the marriage supper is in heaven in Revelation 19. Secondly, it was custom for the groom to take the bride to his father's house. Thirdly, Jesus went to prepare a place for us at His father's house.......heaven. And the verse you quoted proves that.

 until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God."

Additionally, you need to understand the difference between Israel, the woman, and her seed, the 12 tribes across the earth. It is the 12 tribes that are raptured to heaven at the 6th seal, for the marriage supper. Jacob had two brides. The first bride Leah and the Chosen Bride, Rachel.

So the marriage supper take place in heaven with the Church and the 12 tribes across the earth. The woman Israel remains on earth, in her place of protection during the great tribulation and also during the one year wrath of God.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I'm not disagreeing with you on this, but I don't think you're seeing the MAGNITUDE of this! The firstfruits are the first gatherings, out of the rest of the harvest, that are dedicated to YHWH God!

That's correct. That is why we see the 144,000 first fruits before throne in Rev 14. 

Revelation 14

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Second, "redeemed from the earth" - Greek: "ἠγορασμένοι ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς" = eegorasmenoi apo tees gees" = "they-had-been-bought-back away-from the land" - is referring to being "redeemed from all over the earth." They were also "redeemed from among men." He buys them back from their oppressors and has them delivered to Israel from all over the globe.

Above you want to say they are gathered and dedicated to God. Well God is in heaven which is why the 144,000 are before the throne in heaven.

Revelation 14

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

I'm encouraged to see that you're at least understanding that neither the "tribulation" nor the "great tribulation" is the "7 years" or "3.5 years" of the Seventieth Week of Daniel 9:27.

I will be encouraged when you understand that there are two folds, Gentiles and the twelve tribes across the earth that join to one fold........Israel.

There are two raptures as we can prove that over, and over.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

HOWEVER,...

One should NOT fall into the Preterist view and say that the whole of the Week ended at the stoning of Stephen!

I don't believe that nonsense. The 70th week will start when a covenant has been made with many.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Rather, one must undersand that the 70th Seven was the FIRST Seven years of the Messiah's introduction to Israel to be Israel's King - or rather, GOD'S choice for King in Israel! The six purposes for the Seventy Sevens of years are...

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, 

(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy. ..."

These have to do with the Messiah of God for Israel, Yeeshuwa` Natsratiy ("Jesus of-Nazareth"). He is "the most Holy" or "Holy of Holies" since the veil was split down the middle at His death on the cross. Therefore, we are looking forward to the anointing of Him as Israel's King (WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN THE FIRST CENTURY A.D!) Just as David reigned in Hebron over the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") for 7 years prior to his reign over all of Israel, so too shall Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God reign for 7 years. The covenant that was strengthened was the DAVIDIC Covenant, which Gabriel pronounced at Yeeshuwa`s CONCEPTION! Compare Luke 1:30-33 with 2 Samuel 7:12-16.

Read through the rest of Gabriel's words:

Daniel 9:25-27 (KJV)

25 "Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven (7) weeks, and (+) threescore and two (62) weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And AFTER threescore and two (> 62) weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. ..."

Consider this: In English, "of the prince that shall come" is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE (with a subordinate clause), the preposition being the word "OF." A prepositional phrase can take on the properties of an adjective, if describing a noun, or an adverb, if describing a verb. The nouns within the prepositional phrase cannot be the subject or objects of the sentence.

The SAME is true in Hebrew! In Hebrew, the words "people of-prince" (עַם נָגִיד = `am naagiyd) is a NOUN CONSTRUCT STATE - two nouns placed back-to-back! As such the second noun is subordinate and descriptive of the first noun. It is USUALLY translated with the word "of" in between. A quick example is "ben David" meaning "son OF David." In the same way, the second noun cannot be the subject of a verb in the sentence.

27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Now, in the English translations, we've ended the sentence in verse 26 with a period, but Hebrew doesn't use such punctuation, and the antecedent for the verbs in verse 27 is not found in verse 27. The Hebrew sentence doesn't end in verse 26! So, to find the antecedent for the verbs in verse 27 one must go back to verse 26, and as previously noted, it cannot be "prince" which is subordinate to "people." One must go back farther to find a nominative, masculine, singular, personal noun (since the verbs show mascuilne and singular forms). The only noun that fits is "מָשִׁיחַ" "maashiyach" or transliterated as "Messiah" in verse 26.

Therefore, the antecedent of the verbs in verse 27 is "Messiah" in verse 26!

Substituting the noun for the pronouns in verse 27, we get ...

27 "And the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the Messiah shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations the Messiah shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Knowing that this is the Davidic Covenant in verse 27 means that He strengthens that Covenant for a 7-year period, just as His ancestor David did when he reigned for 7 years in Hebron. Gabriel said He would fulfill the Davidic Covenant in Luke 1:30-33, and the wise men confirmed that He was the King of the Jews! Furthermore, the scribes (transcribers of the Tanakh or Old Testament) confirmed the Messiah's birth would be in Beit-Lechem ("House of Bread," "Bethlehem") in Judah.

The Messiah DID "cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" when His death on the cross became the ULTIMATE Sacrifice for sin, and God was satisfied. (Isaiah 53).

MORE to come....

 

This is not correct. The covenant has nothing to do with the Davidic Covenant. Also, the people of the prince that shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The Jews will not destroy their own city and Temple. 

[JoeCanada]

22 hours ago, The Light said:

The spring barley harvest..........The dead in Christ rise.........Passover harvest feast.

The summer wheat harvest.........The alive that remained.......The true Pentecost harvest feast.

The fall fruit harvest.....The seed of the woman, twelve tribes.....Feast of Trumpets

Good grief ... 

Myself and others have already shown you that there is only ONE main harvest.

Yet you refuse to acknowledge scripture and instead you rely on your own interpretation ... or what you have been taught by some wayward minister.

This is a classic case of "cognitive dissonance"

 

When is the harvest?

Matt : 13:30, 39

‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn..... and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels."

Read it again, carefully.

Allow BOTH to grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST .... not a year..... or 2 years .... .....or 3 years before .... but UNTIL THE HARVEST. 

The harvest is one event, not two.... not three

The angels are the reapers. They reap the entire harvest. One group reaps (gathers) the righteous and carries them to the Father's "barn" .... the other angels reaps (gathers) the unrighteous and throws them into the winepress of Almighty God ... the Wrath of God. 

One harvest event ... multiple things going on.

One harvest ... the resurrection and rapture of the righteous ...

And 

The gathering of the unrighteous ... simultaneously..... and the commencement of the wrath of Almighty God.  

It's going to be a big colossal day with multiple things going on ... but it is only one event .... the HARVEST!

[Diaste]

On 12/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, The Light said:

The Church is in heaven during the GT. Those are the seed of the woman that go through the GT and are raptured to heaven as part of the great multitude at the 6th seal...........BEFORE the wrath of God.

You have everyone on earth during Gods wrath though we are not appointed to wrath. Paul makes that clear.

Okay, the church is in heaven. Where is that shown in the text? I only see a multitude from the GT in heaven and then in Ch.20 I see those in heaven who were beheaded and refused the forced worship of the beast and his image. 

Pretrib would have us believe there is another great multitude taken off the earth in a rapture before the last week begins. This pretrib group must also be as pure as those depicted in Rev 7, and it must be as large or larger than the group from all nations, tribes and languages that came out from within GT. 

Where is this group described in scripture? 
I do not have believers on earth during wrath. Jesus makes the structure of the timing of the last week very clear: Birth pangs from the onset of the week to the midpoint, the A of D at the midpoint, the flight of those in Judea, GT begins. None of that is God's wrath.

Wrath only occurs after GT and after the signs of Jesus arrival and then His arrival.

According to the outline of the last week in Matt 24 and Mark 13, God's wrath only begins sometime past the midpoint. Ergo, there is no issue with believers on earth throughout the balance of the last week up the moment Jesus arrives.

 

On 12/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, The Light said:

The people of Daniel are the second fold of the Israel of God. Daniels people are clearly the ones that God through 70 weeks. There was no Church on earth during the first 69 weeks, so the Church is not part of the people of Daniel.

Sure. I doubt you have that correct, but you do you.

On 12/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, The Light said:

 

Proven to be wrong by the 69 weeks that were upon the people of Daniel before the Church ever came about. Since 70 weeks are determined upon Daniels people and the Church missed the first 69 week, It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to be Daniels people.

Since Paul said there is no Jew or Greek but all are one in Christ, and he was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and learned for many  years from the Apostles that walked with Jesus, I guess you'll have to take that up with them. 

On 12/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, The Light said:

But the 6th seal has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trumpet. Do you not understand this?

It very much does. The 6th seal is the sign of Jesus arrival and the impending wrath. The 7th Trump is the gathering and Jesus appearance and the onset of wrath; just like the scripture says.

The text denotes wrath as existent in both Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18. Since Jesus does not arrive twice, and wrath does not occur twice, the 6th seal and the 7th trump are concurrent/successive. 

 

On 12/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, The Light said:

Agreed. But it is obvious that you don't understand the order as you seem to think that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, the second coming, before the Day of the Lord has something to do with the coming of Jesus, the second advent, at the end of the Day of the Lord.

They are one and the same. One coming only, not two. You seem to manufacture events as needed to support your dogma.

On 12/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, The Light said:

The 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are completely separate events.

While the events are distinct, both are like rivers streaming to the confluence. They will occur in close proximity in time/space. 

On 12/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, The Light said:

I need one and only one.

But you claim multiple rapture events. We all see you post there are at least two raptures.

On 12/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, The Light said:

However, there are two raptures as there are two folds,

See?

On 12/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, The Light said:

as the fig tree has two harvests, as one like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot. One at the trump of God or voice of God and one at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Fig harvests, wheat, grapes, pumpkins and on and on...Where does it end?

[Diaste]

On 12/3/2024 at 11:19 AM, The Light said:

The Church will not be on the earth when the AOD and GT occur.

And yet scripture depicts a great multitude in heaven having come out of GT. There are clearly elect, precious, lauded, rewarded, in white robes standing about the throne, eternal, and in close fellowship with God and the Lamb. Isn't that the very definition of the church?

And telling is there complete origin: "After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. "

This is not limited to Jews and national Israel.

On 12/3/2024 at 11:19 AM, The Light said:

Jesus is talking to the Jews as His ministry was to the whole house of Israel. It is the Jews that will see the AOD and GT as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Well then, you are going to have to remain consistent and remove everything Jesus said from your doctrine. 

On 12/3/2024 at 11:19 AM, The Light said:

There are many things that Jesus did not mention in the Olivet Discourse.

Stay on point. We are talking about what He did say and contrasting that to what you say. Jesus told us to watch and what to watch for. You add in what you'd like to see. Jesus said, "when you see all these things...", and he did not mention harvests.

On 12/3/2024 at 11:19 AM, The Light said:

Of course, the great multitude is from every nation and tribe and people and tongue. That because the Church is raptured pretrib and then comes back with the Lord when He comes for the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman, at the gathering from heaven and earth. The great multitude contains the Gentiles, the first fold and the 12 tribes across the earth, the second fold. Both are joined to together as one fold....the great multitude.

Nope. The time/space origin of the great multitude is: 

“These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; 

They did not come from heaven, not a single one. They came from GT, on earth. Not a one was gathered pretrib.

On 12/3/2024 at 11:19 AM, The Light said:

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

And there shall be one fold. Not two, one. 

On 12/3/2024 at 11:19 AM, The Light said:

 

They are the first fruits of the second harvest. They are of the 12 tribes. That is why after the rapture at the 6th seal they are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Both folds are elect.

 

So where is this first harvest group in scripture?

[The Light]

17 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Good grief ... 

Myself and others have already shown you that there is only ONE main harvest.

No. You attempted to show it, but the scripture does not support what you are saying. 

17 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Yet you refuse to acknowledge scripture and instead you rely on your own interpretation ... or what you have been taught by some wayward minister.

This is a classic case of "cognitive dissonance"

What you are passing around is the same old rhetoric that has been slathered around since what.......the 17th century? The Book of Daniel has been sealed till the time of the end which appears to be now.

17 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Allow BOTH to grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST .... not a year..... or 2 years .... .....or 3 years before .... but UNTIL THE HARVEST. 

Which harvest? I don't think you realize there is more than one.

17 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The harvest is one event, not two.... not three

Thought so.

17 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The angels are the reapers. They reap the entire harvest. One group reaps (gathers) the righteous and carries them to the Father's "barn" .... the other angels reaps (gathers) the unrighteous and throws them into the winepress of Almighty God ... the Wrath of God. 

One harvest event ... multiple things going on.

One harvest ... the resurrection and rapture of the righteous ...

 

Now let's prove what you are saying is incorrect.

Matthew 13

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

In the wheat harvest the tares are gathered first. When we read Revelation 14 below we see the righteous are gathered first. This cannot be the same harvest according to scripture.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Wheat is harvested in the summer. Grapes are in the fall. The wheat harvest does not occur at the time of the grape harvest. There is more than one harvest........ACCORING TO THE WORD OF GOD.

 

[The Light]

On 12/5/2024 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

Okay, the church is in heaven. Where is that shown in the text? I only see a multitude from the GT in heaven and then in Ch.20 I see those in heaven who were beheaded and refused the forced worship of the beast and his image. 

Pretrib would have us believe there is another great multitude taken off the earth in a rapture before the last week begins. This pretrib group must also be as pure as those depicted in Rev 7, and it must be as large or larger than the group from all nations, tribes and languages that came out from within GT. 

The Church is part of the great multitude in Revelation 7. The great multitude is in heaven after the gathering from heaven and earth.

On 12/5/2024 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

I do not have believers on earth during wrath. Jesus makes the structure of the timing of the last week very clear: Birth pangs from the onset of the week to the midpoint, the A of D at the midpoint, the flight of those in Judea, GT begins. None of that is God's wrath.

Wrath only occurs after GT and after the signs of Jesus arrival and then His arrival.

Totally agree. So how do you think the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal before the wrath of God, is the some coming of Jesus at the 7th trumpets AFTER the wrath of God.

Are the trumpets not the wrath of God? If you think not, you might want to reread the 7th seal again.

On 12/5/2024 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

According to the outline of the last week in Matt 24 and Mark 13, God's wrath only begins sometime past the midpoint. Ergo, there is no issue with believers on earth throughout the balance of the last week up the moment Jesus arrives.

No, no. Let keep things in order. How can you even say this when you know that the tribulation is not the wrath of God.

You squatted in your own chili. Immediately after the tribulation............Jesus comes.

So if Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation, WHERE DOES THE WRATH OF GOD FIT. 

I'll tell you because you don't know. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation of those days, occurs before wrath. Wrath is the 7th seal. As I said, you have the Church on earth during the wrath of God.

 

On 12/5/2024 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

 

Since Paul said there is no Jew or Greek but all are one in Christ, and he was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and learned for many  years from the Apostles that walked with Jesus, I guess you'll have to take that up with them. 

Paul also says there is no male and female. Is this a trans situation?

No. There are males and females until after the two folds become one fold. At that time we will have new bodies.

On 12/5/2024 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

It very much does. The 6th seal is the sign of Jesus arrival and the impending wrath. The 7th Trump is the gathering and Jesus appearance and the onset of wrath; just like the scripture says.

Sorry Bub, that's not what it says

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus comes for a harvest and then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.

On 12/5/2024 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

The text denotes wrath as existent in both Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18. Since Jesus does not arrive twice, and wrath does not occur twice, the 6th seal and the 7th trump are concurrent/successive. 

In Revelation 6..........the day of wrath is come.

In Revelation 11.............wrath is come. It is the time of judgement.

There is a difference between the day of wrath and wrath.

The 6th seal concludes with the coming of Jesus in the clouds for the harvest. Then the day of wrath is come. Then the 7th seal opened and the trumpets of wrath happen in order. When the 7th trumpet sounds, Armageddon is already over, and Jeus is setting up His kingdom on the earth. Wrath is over and it is the time of judgement.

On 12/5/2024 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

 

They are one and the same. One coming only, not two. You seem to manufacture events as needed to support your dogma.

You seem to skip events. Those trumpets of wrath are nonexistent in your timeline because the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus comes and the Day of the Lord has come. It will come when the 7th seal is opened. Why you are unable to grasp this, I don't know.

On 12/5/2024 at 5:04 AM, Diaste said:

 

Fig harvests, wheat, grapes, pumpkins and on and on...Where does it end?

It ends when the harvests come in. The feasts of God are a shadow of things to come. I am amazing that God talks about the harvests and you want to think there is only one and you seem to think that harvest is after the 7 trumpets of wrath. You don't understand the order of Revelation......simple as that.

Edited December 6, 2024 by The Light

[The Light]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

And yet scripture depicts a great multitude in heaven having come out of GT. There are clearly elect, precious, lauded, rewarded, in white robes standing about the throne, eternal, and in close fellowship with God and the Lamb. Isn't that the very definition of the church?

And telling is there complete origin: "After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. "

This is not limited to Jews and national Israel.

The Church is already in heaven. When the Lord returns for the seed of the woman, 12 tribes across the earth, the Church will go with Him. This happens at the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well then, you are going to have to remain consistent and remove everything Jesus said from your doctrine. 

I am consistent. There are two folds. The Church is the first fold. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth are the second fold. Two folds into one become the great multitude.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Stay on point. We are talking about what He did say and contrasting that to what you say. Jesus told us to watch and what to watch for. You add in what you'd like to see. Jesus said, "when you see all these things...", and he did not mention harvests.

He is talking to the Jews. The Church can escape ALL THESE THINGS and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Nope. The time/space origin of the great multitude is: 

“These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; 

They did not come from heaven, not a single one. They came from GT, on earth. Not a one was gathered pretrib.

There is a great multitude which includes the Church that will be raptured pretrib. Then there is a group..........the second fold...........that comes out of great tribulation. Not too hard to understand.

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

And there shall be one fold. Not two, one. 

exactly.......two folds into one fold.

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

So where is this first harvest group in scripture?

I already showed........several times. Read Revelation 4 and 5.

[Diaste]

On 12/5/2024 at 4:09 PM, The Light said:

The Church is already in heaven. When the Lord returns for the seed of the woman, 12 tribes across the earth, the Church will go with Him. This happens at the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

You and all others who ascribe to the doctrine keep saying that, but where do we see them in scripture described as being in heaven. We see a large group coming out of GT described in great detail answering all the questions of: When? Where? Who? What? Why? and we even see the new and greater altered state in which they exist; peaceful ease of eternity.  

Nothing like that exists for a pretrib group. Why not?