The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Keras]

This thread is an attempt to prove the Church is in heaven before God sends His wrath.

That premise is wrong because the holy people of God are in the holy Land when the Anti-Christ 'beast', conquers them. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7

It is the Jewish people who are not mentioned as the faithful Christian peoples of God. Only 24,000, are chosen to represent Judah. Rev 7

They will be divided into two groups, as described in Revelation 12:14 & 17

[Diaste]

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

Well yes if that Israel is the Israeli nation only, the Church is of course, not Israel.

The only congregation of God that exists is the Israel of God. There is no 'church' apart from the Israel of God. 

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

Of course it is, you ate just not picking up the rhythm of God on these verses. And the lack of push back makes it obvious tbh.

Push back just means I'm directly over the target. 

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

 God looks at everything reverse from us

So can you post the video of your interview with God so we can see this direct quote?

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

the 1260 is how many days the Beast serves and how many days God's Wrath lasts AND how many days away it is until Jesus shows up to "END ALL THESE WONDERS as told in Dan. 12:7" The Beast can not go forth conquering until God's Wrath hits in Rev. 8, the First Four Trumps are merely just ONE Asteroid Event. The Fires come as the Asteroid Breaks apart via Trump #1. The IMPACT is Trump #2. The Fresh Water turning Bitter is the FALLOUT from the impact, but only in  1/3 of the world, or where it hits, in the New World, just off the California Coast (see Apophis is the DOTL it will hit on Friday the 13, on April 13, 2029 IT WILL HIT). Then Trump #4 is the Sun & Moon going DARK, or Seal #6 being fulfilled !! The Smoke from all the fires on earth (I mean 1/3 of the world is burning) starts to blot out the sun, and the moon looks Blood Red because of the red hue from all the fires on earth. 

Cool story, bro.

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

Then we are told clearly in Rev. 8:13 that the final Three Woes will ONLY COME from the Three Trumps when they are Sounded or Blown. So, Trump #5 has to be the 1st Woe, Trump #6 has to be the 2nd Woe and Trump #7 can ONLY BE the 3rd Woe !!

This is truly amazing, you got this part correct.

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

In Rev. 11 we are seeing a Parenthetical Chapter which is meant to show us the full 1260 days of the Two-witnesses ministry, which we know starts 75 days before the middle of the week 1260 DOTL events. How so? Because they DIE before the Beast dies to end his 1260 day reign which starts in the middle of the week, its simple math !! The Two-witnesses are the 1335 Blessing who shows up as Malachi 4:5 says BEFORE the DOTL (1260) arrives. So, we are just getting the rundown of the 2-Witnesse Ministry in Rev. 11, nothing else but it covers the exact same timeframe as Rev 8, plus Rev. 9 and 16 also, save the final 75 days BUT.......there prayer prays down the 3rd Woe which is SOON TO COME, and as we see it says the 7th Trump sounds and VICTORY is at hand, people misconstrue this, the see the 2nd Woe(6th Trump) and they understand that can be seen in REAL TIME in Rev. 9, but they do not understand that the 7th Trump sounding can also be seen in REAL TIME in Rev. 16, the 3rd Woe this emits from the 7th Trump, as Rev. 8:13 says. So, when we see the 7th Trump sound in Rev. 11 and were told the 3rd Woe comes quickly, we just have to MESH IT ALL TOGETHER, the 7th Trump emits the 3rd Woe, which is the 7 Vials. Thus as Rev. 15 says God's Wrath is FILLED UP (means made full or COMPLETED) with the 7 Vials. LETS LOOK !!

And then you follow up with this. smh

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

14 The second woe is past(Real time event is seen in Rev. 9); and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly(SEE BELOW, it comes when the 7th Trump is sounded, but AFTER the Two-witnesses die, meaning once they pray it down their ministry is finished).

Your conclusion doesn't follow. 

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;(So, we are told this brings Victory, but we get the 7 Vial Events which is the 3rd Woe in  Rev. 16, and Jesus shows up on Mt. Zion in Rev. 16:19 to end it all) and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

We have to understand the Parenthetical Chapters in order to ever grasp the Revelation timelines. The 7 Vials emit from the 7th Trump, they are the 3rd Woe, the 6th Vial is not a River Drying up, its God's Plagues DRYING UP in order to give the Three Liars (Dragon, AC and FP) a chance to entice the cowards who took the Mark of the Beast to come out of their hiding places in caves etc. If God just kept on slaying them they would never gather to all go to Jerusalem/Armageddon. 

Of course they are, they are an ASTEROID EVENT, (Trump 1-4) and then the Three Woes. You read into the Vials bringing in the Fulness of God's wrath and do not understand that it is relaying they FINISH UP God's Wrath. 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 12/9/2024 at 9:00 AM, abcdef said:

I have not ignored anything that you have posted. I have responded to every post.

My question now is this, Why do you completely ignore Rome and it's rule over the children of Israel that started in 63 BC?

It appears that you believe that there is no mention of Rome in prophecy at all.

Did Greece kill Jesus or Rome?

Actually the Jews demanded Jesus death, the Roman governor found Jesus innocent.

If anything, Rome formally executed Jesus at the demand of the Jews. 

In any case, the problem with the Roman conclusion is the prophecy doesn't support it. Even if one thinks it's Rome or makes up some non biblical interpretive criteria such as; Rome ruled over Israel or Rome killed Jesus, the prophecy in Daniel makes the succession very clear, and Rome is nowhere to be seen.

Again, Daniel shows us the inspired prophecy and we get the interpretation of the succession: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, the Diadochi, and the little horn arising from one the Diadochi.

The correct conclusion is the beast of the end of the age comes out of one of these four: Macedonia, Egypt, Asia Minor or Mesopotamia. Daniel 11 follows the Seleucid Empire right up to the A of D committed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. 

You are free to conclude it's Rome and a revived Roman Empire. I cannot. 

I conclude Islam. And it's looking more and more like that is building to come to pass.

[Diaste]

On 12/9/2024 at 7:11 AM, The Light said:

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Twenty four elders with crowns in heaven and kings and priests around the throne. Cherry on top.......Church not mentioned after that. And there is more, you just don't want to see.

To make what you think happens you have to change the order of the seals. Wow.

Where is the connection equating the elders with the church? I need to see a biblical, prophetic connection like in Dan 8 where the angel identifies the ram and Medo-Persia and the goat as Greece. 

There are many books in the NT where the church isn't mentioned but it's clear the congregation is present and active. That absence of evidence thing to prove absence is weak. In reality the church is mentioned every time it's said, 'those who hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ'.

Not changing the order of anything. Just seeing the concurrent nature of seals and trumps. 

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

The only congregation of God that exists is the Israel of God. There is no 'church' apart from the Israel of God. 

On 12/9/2024 at 11:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

Of course there is, Israel married God LONG AGO, that is why the 144,000 (5 million Jews Men & Women) have the Fathers name on their forehead. Paul writes about both and continually cites THEM as Israel and the Church over and over. You fundamentally do not understand prophesy/eschatology. God chose Israel to deliver a Messiah/Sacrifice for the world, and Jesus is the Groom of the Church, God is married unto Israel. Jacob had two brides, the preferred in Rachel and Leah the forced bride.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

So can you post the video of your interview with God so we can see this direct quote?

On 12/9/2024 at 11:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

Do you even understand how to hear God's voice?  Now I know why you can not understand Prophesy AT ALL Brother.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

And then you follow up with this. smh

On 12/9/2024 at 11:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

The 1335 comes first, you can not see it because you are not open unto hearing from God (it seems). Its OBVIOUS, the Two-witnesses DIE before the Beast DIES explain how that can be if they do not show up first, THINK MAN.  Thus the 1335 Blessing is the Two-witnesses. 

So, in Dan. 12:6 the Angels asks Jesus (Man in Linen) HOW LONG UNTIL ALL THESE WONDERS END? And Jesus answers in vs. 7, and basically says from the time Israel is conquered it will be 1260 days until ALL THESE WONDERS END (Dan. 11:36-45, NOTICE the Anti-Christ dies in vs. 45)

Then in verse 8 Daniel asks the EXACT SAME THIG, and you can not put it together, well that is on you.

Dan. 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half;(after 1260 days it will ALL  END) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Well, it is the exact same question as the Angel asks, why is it you can not understand that the question regards Jesus ending it all at the 2nd coming, after 1260 days via the Angels question, but Jesus then gives Daniel two more NUMBERS that do what? END ALL THESE THINGS !! Why is this like pulling teeth? These things were meant to be kept a secret until the very end, tat is what Jesus told Daniel. So, instead of giving us a DETAILRED EXPLANATION, we are given three numbers and we have to figure out THE EVENTS and who is being spoken about in each case, and there is a reason for this. Notice John in 93ish AD was given the name of the figurehead as the False Prophet, but Daniel was only told about an AoD in Dan. 9:27 and given a number, the 1290 in Dan. 12.

Just like King Herod tried to kill baby Jesus, if God had given Daniel the moniker False Prophet to come, every other High Priest might have been killed over the next 500 years fearing that they were the coming False Prophet, so God knows what He is doing and gave us only NUMBERS until the 2nd coming ends all these wonders r things for a reason. NOTICE, nowhere in vs 7 is the Little Horn or AC mentioned, but we figured it out by using OTHER PASSAGES, that is what I did with the 1290 and 1335 because this is my calling.

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. The exact same message is given in the 1290 and 1335, what will END ALL THESE THINGS? 

Dan. 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand(END TIMES).

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away(The 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260, you getting it or nit changes nothing brother), and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Rev 13 states the False Prophet places the IMAGE in the Temple and you know this is true hence you can not make a valid argument against it)

12 Blessed (WHY?)is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Israel are BLESSED when the Two-witnesses SHOW UP before the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord SO SAYS Malachi 4:5-6, look it up)

It marvels me that al because we were all taught wrongly that the Anti-Christ was the one who defiles the Temple, when he only goes forth conquering 30 days after that event. GUESS WHAT, it all fits and jibes, do you really think that God would give Israel a WARNING SIGN after they had been conquered? Makes NO SENSE right, psstt, but guess what does make sense that the False Prophet places the AoD at his behest from afar and thus gives the Jews who repented 30 days to Flee Judea, wow, making the passages JIBE. God would NEVER wait until Israel were already conquered and then give them a warning, that sounds more like something Biden would do. You ALWAYS DODGE THIS of course, the Two-witnesses DIE before the Beasts DIES, so they have to show up BEFORE he becomes the Beast. Thus they are the 1335 Blessing. You getting it or not will not change these facts brother.

We have the Archetype Anti-Christ in Antiochus, but we also have the Archetype False Prophet in Jason (real name Yeshua) who welcomed Antiochus into the Temple to defile it with a pig sacrificed unto Zeus but he also MANDATED that all Jews become Hellenized, which led to the Maccabean Wat which wrested control away from  Greece, then God killed Antiochus WITHOUT HAND via a Virus of some sort on the Eastern Front of a battle, likewise Jesus will kill the AC by speaking. 

The key unto ALL End Time Eschatology is the 1335, 1290 and 1260. You have been given what most have never been given, but you can not see it. We are not all called unto Prophesy. It is what it is brother. 

[Diaste]

On 12/9/2024 at 7:50 PM, Keras said:

This thread is an attempt to prove the Church is in heaven before God sends His wrath.

That premise is wrong because the holy people of God are in the holy Land when the Anti-Christ 'beast', conquers them. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7

It is the Jewish people who are not mentioned as the faithful Christian peoples of God. Only 24,000, are chosen to represent Judah. Rev 7

They will be divided into two groups, as described in Revelation 12:14 & 17

Then you may have misunderstood. This thread was to discuss the idea the church isn't on earth for the last 7 years at the end of the age, to dispute the idea that because the 'church' isn't mentioned past Rev 4, the 'church' isn't on earth during any of the last 7 years of the government of man and the rule of Satan.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Do you even understand how to hear God's voice?  Now I know why you can not understand Prophesy AT ALL Brother.

Do you realize there are hundreds of people that claim to hear God's voice that all contradict each other? Someone claiming to hear God's voice is just evidence of personal agenda; especially when the supposed hearing contradicts the written evidence. 

[Jaydub]

On 11/9/2024 at 1:21 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Why are these particular Tribulation saints asking how long. Thoughts?

Wouldn't theses saints be martyrs through out the Church age?

REV 1:9

 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

As John writes Revelation he is calling us partners with him in the tribulation, to me it would then make sense, that they ask the question, how long shall we wait.

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Jaydub said:

Wouldn't theses saints be martyrs through out the Church age?

REV 1:9

 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

As John writes Revelation he is calling us partners with him in the tribulation, to me it would then make sense, that they ask the question, how long shall we wait.

These are my thoughts; some differences may lie in the translation used.

Revelation 1:9 (KJV) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:9 (NASB) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in the tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The apostle John was not in THE Tribulation, but they were under persecution and tribulation from the Romans and Jewish religious leaders. Both they and we are appointed tribulation:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

There will be no doubts when THE Tribulation arrives:

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The following is recorded after the 4^th Seal, billions have died, including many who accepted the Lord as their Savior before the 5^th Seal:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Naturally, I could misunderstand this verse, but the subject matter and context seem limited to those martyred in the Tribulation, not the martyred saints of all time.

As I understand, we Christians in the church age at the Rapture/Resurrection will be given our white robes at the Bema Seat of Christ. I also realize that OT saints will not be resurrected until the 2^nd Advent.

Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

In structure, context, and vocabulary, I surmise the above is limited to the martyrs before the beginning of the 5^th Seal, vial, and trumpet judgments. Many more are to be martyred, and they are to wait patiently.

Revelation 1:19 (KJV) Write the things which thou hast seen (past), and the things which are (present in John's day), and the things which shall be hereafter (starting @ chapter 4); [Emphasis mine]

Starting in Revelation chapter 4, this is all future from John's day and perspective. One of several divisions of Revelation is that it is divided chronologically into past, present, and future beyond John's lifetime. Therefore, it stands to reason that these martyred saints under the altar are yet future, beyond John's day. If so, that cannot include the martyred saints of all time. 

Again, I am not claiming my exegesis is correct, but if it is, that leads me to my question. Why do those martyrs not know where they are in time and sequence in THE Tribulation? If those martyrs read and retained Daniel and Revelation alone, they would know exactly how long.

It would make a lot more sense if these were martyred saints of all time. But I cannot manipulate my understanding to see it that way yet.

[The Light]

On 12/12/2024 at 4:46 AM, Diaste said:

Where is the connection equating the elders with the church? I need to see a biblical, prophetic connection like in Dan 8 where the angel identifies the ram and Medo-Persia and the goat as Greece. 

The connection is Jesus will come, and His reward is with Him.

Revelation 3

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

The connection is that the 24 elders are before the throne WITH CROWNS.

Revelation 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The connection is the dead in Christ rise first.

1 Thes 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The connection is He is coming in an hour that you think not.

1 Thes 4

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You are expecting a paved highway with road signs so you can have absolute 100% chiseled in stone proof of when He comes. He tells you He is coming when you think not. You don't believe Him? All you get are bread crumbs. You either see them or you don't.

On 12/12/2024 at 4:46 AM, Diaste said:

There are many books in the NT where the church isn't mentioned but it's clear the congregation is present and active. That absence of evidence thing to prove absence is weak. In reality the church is mentioned every time it's said, 'those who hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ'.

The Church is mentioned 19 times in the 1st 3 chapters of Revelation, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22 at the end. Is that absolute proof that the Church has been raptured? Of course not. But when you put everything together them not being mentioned in Chapters 4-21 should make you stand up an take notice.

Further, and most importantly, the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel who we can prove are of the 12 tribes......as the first 69 weeks took place before the Church was born.

Even further those who are the seed of the woman are seen in Revelation 15 singing the song of Moses. They are of the 12 tribes, obviously

And further still, blindness cannot be removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

It would be wise to realize the master is coming when you think not. Watch and be ready as instructed.

On 12/12/2024 at 4:46 AM, Diaste said:

Not changing the order of anything. Just seeing the concurrent nature of seals and trumps. 

The seals go in order 1 thru 7. That is why order is given to them. You fail to understand that Jesus comes for a harvest at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened. You want to pretend that those 7 trumpets of wrath are occurring during the tribulation period. You don't know the difference between tribulation and the wrath of God.