The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Revelation Man]

53 minutes ago, Diaste said:

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. 

 44For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect.

33Be on your guard and stay alert!g For you do not know when the appointed time will come.

3 35Therefore keep watch, because you do not know when the master of the house will return—whether in the evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or in the morning

 37And what I say to you, I say to everyone: Keep watch!”

It's for everyone. Any one who says it's only for certain people is the deceiver. 

Not when those who dabble are plying people with WRONG INFORMATION which could lead to people not being ready when Jesus returns for his Church. 

You and those who do not see the pre trib. can't keep watch, you think we all go through the 70th week troubles, so WHY WATCH? I mean there is no need of watching right? We know Jesus shows up exactly 1260 days after the Anti-Christ conquers Israel to become THE BEAST. So, the very passages you post disagrees with your understandings. 

The Fact Jesus says no man knows the day nor hour is his way of telling us this is all pre trib., but it goes right over peoples heads. So, if the 2nd coming was Post Trib. everyone would know the EXACT DAY of Jesus' return, which would be on day 1260 of the Beasts rule over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region he conquers. But since no man knows the exact day nor hour, Jesus is telling his disciples and us the church, that he will return on a Jewish Feast day, in the order of the 7 Jewish Feasts which were simply holy convocations (dress rehearsals). So, Jesus must fulfill all 7 Feasts, GET THAT Brother? 

He has fulfilled the Three Spring Feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread and First-fruits) in that he died for our sins, he never sinned and he defeated death and rose from the grave. Jesus is CURRETLY Fulfilling the Summer Harvest or Church Age or Feast of Weeks. He is the head or high priest in heaven, and we the body are harvesting souls for God/Jesus as we speak. So, what always ended the Summer Harvest Season? (This is where you guys always go off track, or DODGE PERTINENT facts and just pretend this facts do not exist.)

The Feast of Trumps, and what Jesus meant by NO MAN can know the Day nor Hour, is the KEY COG in when the Rapture happens via a Pre Trib. only possibility. Israel were on God time or Lunar time, they never knew the exact day a New Moon would come in, lets says its a Tue., Wed. and Thurs. possibility, because the New Moon (Dark Phase) could come in pre sunset on Tue. after sunset on Wed. or the next day after sunset, that's just a 25 hour window, but its three days. This could never happen on a Sun Calendar, the Sunrise is the sunrise and the month is the month etc. but Lunar time is different. 

So, Israel could not know the exact day or hour of the Feast of Trumps, but they of course knew the Season. And THINK NOW, the order of all the Feasts have to be fulfilled IN ORDER (this is where you guys miss it all). So, the Church has to be Raptured on the Feast of Trumps but BEFORE Israel repents (Atonement) and before Jesus dwell with mankind (to Tabernacle means to Dwell with God). So, Jesus calls us the Church home when the Harvesting of Souls by the Church is finished (time of the Gentiles is FULFILLED) and then everything switches back to Israel, the 70th week kicks off the Rapture when the AC (E.U. Leader) signs a deal with Israel (IMHO, this is simply Israel joining the E.U.). 

Then the next Feast to be fulfilled is ATONEMENT (why can't people see this ORDER of events? maybe because of preconceived notions they already have) and we know EXXACTLY WHEN Israel repents don't we? In Zech. 13:8-9 we see the 1/3 (5 million Jews or the 144,000 in CODE) repents and then in the very next verse we see that the DOTL arrives (Zech. 14:1-2) Jerusalem is sacked, AND THEN, Jesus returns 1260 days later, so the Jews must repent JUST BEFORE the DOTL, and that Feast comes when?

THINK NOW....it comes of course, after the Feast of Trumps, which is the Pre Trib. Rapture. Finally at Jesus' return we see Jesus who is Go the Redeemer, DWELLING with mankind for 1000 years at when does it fall on the prophetic timeline? AFTER BOTH the Feast of Trumps and the Feast of Atonement. Just be honest with it all brother, take out the pre learned understandings and try to look with colorless glasses on.

 

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, Jaydub said:

I appreciate that statement and your humility, though I do think it matters. You are right, it makes good conversation

 

Matthew 24 is a great chapter and and one of my favorites. Have you ever compared it to Luke 21? Matthew and Luke are talking about the same event, when Jesus tells them not one stone will be left upon another and the disciples ask when will this be?

you are using Matthew 24:21 as a end time passage

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

First, if its an end time passage, isn't it a little strange that he said nor ever shall be. If we are to read this as the very last days, why did he say, nor ever shall be? Doesn't make much sense if there is no time left, but it would make sence if it was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem/Israel

In Luke we read

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Here in Luke we can see more clearly that this wrath/tribulation is not an end time prophecy, but about the destruction of Jerusalem/Israel

Matthew chapters 24 and 25 contain so much that could be discussed. I will endeavor to be as brief as possible in my reply.

Matthew and Luke both give a synopsis of the same events from their perspectives—Matthew a Jew, and Luke a Gentile. Luke accompanied Paul for much of his ministry, tended to him, and witnessed much of what he did. The Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts can be viewed as one volume. Many believe that Luke was Paul's primary amanuensis.

I will use the apostle Matthew and chapter 24 to explain my view of the prophetic discourse. I view the prophecies of Israel in pretty much sequential order.

[Matt. 24:1-2] The destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem by Titus 10^th Legion occurred about forty years after Jesus ascended to Heaven, fulfilled in 70 A.D.

[Matt. 24:3] The apostles want to know when, and the Jews always demanded a sign(s) for authenticity. So, Jesus expounded on what to look for with warnings for that generation. Four times in the chapter, for emphasis so they did not miss it, Jesus gave the number one sign of the end time: deception.

It is clear and evident that the remainder of Matthew 24 does not discuss the type, figure, and shadow of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-164 B.C.) with verse 24 alone. It was a future prophecy then, and it is still a future prophecy, in my opinion.

 

[Jaydub]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Matthew chapters 24 and 25 contain so much that could be discussed. I will endeavor to be as brief as possible in my reply.

Matthew and Luke both give a synopsis of the same events from their perspectives—Matthew a Jew, and Luke a Gentile. Luke accompanied Paul for much of his ministry, tended to him, and witnessed much of what he did. The Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts can be viewed as one volume. Many believe that Luke was Paul's primary amanuensis.

I will use the apostle Matthew and chapter 24 to explain my view of the prophetic discourse. I view the prophecies of Israel in pretty much sequential order.

[Matt. 24:1-2] The destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem by Titus 10^th Legion occurred about forty years after Jesus ascended to Heaven, fulfilled in 70 A.D.

[Matt. 24:3] The apostles want to know when, and the Jews always demanded a sign(s) for authenticity. So, Jesus expounded on what to look for with warnings for that generation. Four times in the chapter, for emphasis so they did not miss it, Jesus gave the number one sign of the end time: deception.

It is clear and evident that the remainder of Matthew 24 does not discuss the type, figure, and shadow of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-164 B.C.) with verse 24 alone. It was a future prophecy then, and it is still a future prophecy, in my opinion.

 

Well, that was brief. Thank you for your thoughts

[The Light]

On 12/15/2024 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

 

As I said, where is any interpretation of the elders equated with the church? 

See the last post on page 20.

On 12/15/2024 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

 

The elders aren't a prophetic sign like the woman in Rev 12, they aren't a representation of something else like the Whore of Babylon. 

You got it. They are likely on the dead in Christ that rise first.

On 12/15/2024 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

So beyond scripture stating the elders are equivalent to the church, the elders are not designated as a sign, allegory, metaphor or analogy. They are a group existing unto themselves.

You got it. He is coming in an hour that you think not. Nothing chiseled in stone for you to tell exactly when He is coming.

On 12/15/2024 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

You have made category error based on crowns as if the only group that could ever be wearing crowns in heaven are only ever translated believers.

If Jesus is passing out crowns before He comes then talk to Him. He said His reward is with Him.

On 12/15/2024 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

And it's just a likely 'crown' in Rev 2 and 3 is a metaphor for the reward of eternal life and not a golden crown like the elders wear, as described in Rev 4. 

Yeah....er ah.....ok. Then those 24 elders are tossing those metaphors at before the throne. If you are correct, they just tossed away eternal life.

Revelation 4

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

On 12/15/2024 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

Because the dead rise first that means the elders are the church? Non sequitur.

Your non sequitur comment is non sequitur.

On 12/15/2024 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

Another non sequitur.

No. I expect a road uncluttered of potholes, dead ends and forks to no where.

It's as simple as some see, some don't. There are five wise and five foolish. 

[Keras]

The fundamental error of the premise that the church is in heaven by Rev 4, is the fact of Gods holy people being present when the Anti-Christ 'beast' takes world control. Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:7

The idea that the Jewish people are Gods holy people and that title doesn't apply to  Christians, is a serious violation of many scriptures. Anyway; that false belief is simply wrong because the apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews cannot be in Gods favour now and the pre-trib rapture theory of the Jews becoming Christians by the end of the Tribulation, means it is impossible that Daniel 7:25 and Rev 13:7, refers to them at the beginning of the GT. 

Proofs that the Jewish people are not in Gods favour, are:  Matthew 21:43, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 27:25, Like 19:27, Revelation 2:9

[abcdef]

On 12/12/2024 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

Actually the Jews demanded Jesus death, the Roman governor found Jesus innocent.

If anything, Rome formally executed Jesus at the demand of the Jews. 

Yes

On 12/12/2024 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

In any case, the problem with the Roman conclusion is the prophecy doesn't support it. Even if one thinks it's Rome or makes up some non biblical interpretive criteria such as; Rome ruled over Israel or Rome killed Jesus, the prophecy in Daniel makes the succession very clear, and Rome is nowhere to be seen.

Rev 17:10, "One is", the 6th head of the beast nation "is" in the time of John. 

This means that John identified the beast as being alive in his time of 85-96 AD ish.

If you wish not to acknowledge 2000 years of persecution by Rome on the children of Israel and believe that their are no prophecies about it, that is up to you. 

But the timeline that you are suggesting does not match with history or other prophecies. The point that you cannot see Rome in the Dan 2 & 7 timelines will distort your perception of what is coming.

 

On 12/12/2024 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

Again, Daniel shows us the inspired prophecy and we get the interpretation of the succession: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, the Diadochi, and the little horn arising from one the Diadochi.

Yes, there is a Greek horn and a Roman horn. 

The Greek horn comes from the Diadochi, one of the four.

The Roman horn comes up among the 10 other horns, devours 3, and then 7 remain and he is the 8th.

 

On 12/12/2024 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

The correct conclusion is the beast of the end of the age comes out of one of these four: Macedonia, Egypt, Asia Minor or Mesopotamia.

The beast at the end of the ages is Rome and has been Rome for 2000 years as the statue of Dan 2 shows in the iron.

The Antichrist is Caesar and Rome, the RCC and the Bishop of Rome.

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If you think that Islam is the impending danger, I agree completely.

Where in the Revelation does it show Islam? The 6th trumpet and the 6 vial/bowl.

Those are happening right now.

 

On 12/12/2024 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

Daniel 11 follows the Seleucid Empire right up to the A of D committed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. 

Yes, Dan 11 is fulfilled. It's not future. 

To say some future to us Antichrist must fit the template of Antiochus, can have varied interpretations.

Titus fits the template. 

 

On 12/12/2024 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

You are free to conclude it's Rome and a revived Roman Empire. I cannot. 

That's okay, sometimes brothers disagree.

 

On 12/12/2024 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

I conclude Islam. And it's looking more and more like that is building to come to pass.

I agree.

 

[Diaste]

On 12/23/2024 at 9:58 PM, abcdef said:

Rev 17:10, "One is", the 6th head of the beast nation "is" in the time of John. 

This means that John identified the beast as being alive in his time of 85-96 AD ish.

If you wish not to acknowledge 2000 years of persecution by Rome on the children of Israel and believe that their are no prophecies about it, that is up to you. 

Okay. But if Revelation is the later date, 85-96 AD, then that would be in the reign of Domitian, the 11th Roman emperor. This is one reason why many like to place the Revelation on 65 AD, so Nero can be the 'one is' as he is the 6th Roman Emperor. 

On 12/23/2024 at 9:58 PM, abcdef said:

But the timeline that you are suggesting does not match with history or other prophecies. The point that you cannot see Rome in the Dan 2 & 7 timelines will distort your perception of what is coming.

In the timeline of Dan 2-7 it can be construed that Rome is the 4th beast. From Dan 8 and 11 it cannot be. The Great kingdoms are shown in Dan 2 as well at the succession. In Dan 7 we see the 4 beasts, the same order of succession exists there as well. In Dan 8 we see the succession of Medo-Persia to Greece, knowing from history that Babylon was defeated by the same Medo-Persian empire that is defeated by Greece in Dan 8.

Now the succession is etched in stone with history confirming the prophecy: Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece. 

Dan 8 continues with the Grecian kingdom given to four notable ones. Turns out that's the Diadochi of Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus and Seleucid. Dan 11 iterates this in the first 4 verses.

Dan 11 goes on to prophesy about the wars of the Diadochi, right up to  AE IV, a Syrian King and grandson of Seleucus Nicator, committing the A of D. 

I see Rome nowhere in the detailed description of the succession of kingdoms well explained in Dan 8 and 11. That's why I don't conclude Rome as the 4th beast. Not because I labor in muddled perception, but because the prophecy doesn't support a Roman conclusion but instead supports the conclusion it's the Diadochi in general and the template, archetype, of AE IV specifically.

[Diaste]

On 12/23/2024 at 9:58 PM, abcdef said:

Yes, Dan 11 is fulfilled. It's not future. 

To say some future to us Antichrist must fit the template of Antiochus, can have varied interpretations.

Titus fits the template. 

Dan 11 is only fulfilled up to v 36. Verse 35 switches focus to the future. What assures me of this is consistent description of behavior, to wit:

will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods. "

 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

Two of the above quotes are from after the time of Jesus and mirror Dan 11. This entity has not yet arrived on the scene. This is also one of the several identifiers of the beast: in the Temple, exalting himself above every god. 

That was not Titus. 

[abcdef]

On 12/26/2024 at 6:22 AM, Diaste said:

Okay. But if Revelation is the later date, 85-96 AD, then that would be in the reign of Domitian, the 11th Roman emperor. This is one reason why many like to place the Revelation on 65 AD, so Nero can be the 'one is' as he is the 6th Roman Emperor. 

Rev 17, The 7 & 8th heads are not individual Caesars. It doesn't work. 

The heads represent the life time of the beast/Roman Empire. When the 7th head dies, the main body Roman Empire dies and divides in to 10 horns.

Think about how long that this beast nation lives, centuries and centuries.

There were many Caesars more than 7 or 8. So the centuries are expressed as 7 & 8.

7 Heads for the Roman Empire and 8 for the time after the Empire divides into the 10 horns with 1 Roman Caesar. 

 

On 12/26/2024 at 6:22 AM, Diaste said:

In the timeline of Dan 2-7 it can be construed that Rome is the 4th beast.

yes

On 12/26/2024 at 6:22 AM, Diaste said:

From Dan 8 and 11 it cannot be.

yes

On 12/26/2024 at 6:22 AM, Diaste said:

The Great kingdoms are shown in Dan 2 as well at the succession. In Dan 7 we see the 4 beasts, the same order of succession exists there as well.

yes

On 12/26/2024 at 6:22 AM, Diaste said:

In Dan 8 we see the succession of Medo-Persia to Greece, knowing from history that Babylon was defeated by the same Medo-Persian empire that is defeated by Greece in Dan 8.

yes

On 12/26/2024 at 6:22 AM, Diaste said:

Now the succession is etched in stone with history confirming the prophecy: Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece. 

Dan 8 continues with the Grecian kingdom given to four notable ones. Turns out that's the Diadochi of Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus and Seleucid. Dan 11 iterates this in the first 4 verses.

yes

On 12/26/2024 at 6:22 AM, Diaste said:

 

Dan 11 goes on to prophesy about the wars of the Diadochi, right up to  AE IV, a Syrian King and grandson of Seleucus Nicator, committing the A of D. 

yes

On 12/26/2024 at 6:22 AM, Diaste said:

I see Rome nowhere in the detailed description of the succession of kingdoms well explained in Dan 8 and 11.

I agree

On 12/26/2024 at 6:22 AM, Diaste said:

That's why I don't conclude Rome as the 4th beast. Not because I labor in muddled perception, but because the prophecy doesn't support a Roman conclusion but instead supports the conclusion it's the Diadochi in general and the template, archetype, of AE IV specifically.

In Dan 8:1-9, Shows that the little horn in that passage comes out of one of the 4 previous Greek horns.

In Dan 7 the 4th beast rises up from the sea and it not part of the Greek leopard.

In Rev 13:1, the beast rises up from the sea (of the gentile nations).

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Dan 7, The 4 leopard heads are the 4 generals of Antiochus. 

 The 4th beast rises from the sea, lives for awhile and then becomes divided. After that the little horn rises among the 10.

If the 4 leopard heads are the Greek generals, and Antiochus is the little horn among the 10, then who is the body of the 4th beast. That is, what nation would it be that is between the 4 and Antiochus? It can't be the 4 generals because they are seen as the 4 leopard heads and come to an end when the 4th beast rises from the sea.

It seems that it can only be Rome and that the 11th horn comes after Rome is divided.

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[abcdef]

On 12/26/2024 at 6:31 AM, Diaste said:

Dan 11 is only fulfilled up to v 36. Verse 35 switches focus to the future. What assures me of this is consistent description of behavior, to wit:

Dan 11, Context. Can we just suddenly say that one verse is BC and the next verse is 2000 AD, then return to BC in v 40 (chariots)?

Again, which "time of the end" is it? The end of Jerusalem time? The end of Trib time? The end of the age Time? Etc.

The best fit is the end of Antiochus and the Greek rule time. That would fit the context.

 

On 12/26/2024 at 6:31 AM, Diaste said:

will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods. "

Why do you think that Antiochus didn't fulfilled this? 

This could be said about almost every ruler who ruled over the children of Israel. I can think of people doing the same thing today. It's not really that unusual and Antiochus would certainly be an example. (Vatican)

 

On 12/26/2024 at 6:31 AM, Diaste said:

4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Titus did that.

 

On 12/26/2024 at 6:31 AM, Diaste said:

The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

Caesar, Rome, and the Vatican.

The 42 months is symbolic and not literal. The 42 months is centuries and centuries. 

 

On 12/26/2024 at 6:31 AM, Diaste said:

Two of the above quotes are from after the time of Jesus and mirror Dan 11.

Thee abomination of Dan 11 is Antiochus.

The abomination of Dan 9:25-27 is Titus. This is shown by the timeline anchor of the 70 weeks. Jesus comes after the 69th week, at the beginning of the 70th week.

This puts the AoD that Jesus referred to as being related to the time when He bean His ministry. The Abomination that Jesus talked about happened 40 years later when Titus leveled the temple and Jerusalem.

 

On 12/26/2024 at 6:31 AM, Diaste said:

This entity has not yet arrived on the scene.

Antichrist Antiochus has been fulfilled.

Antichrist Titus has been fulfilled.

The little horn that rises when the beast nation is divided is fulfilled, he has been here for centuries attacking the children of Israel, the Vatican.

 

On 12/26/2024 at 6:31 AM, Diaste said:

This is also one of the several identifiers of the beast: in the Temple, exalting himself above every god. 

Titus did that.

On 12/26/2024 at 6:31 AM, Diaste said:

That was not Titus. 

Did Antiochus exalt himself above every god?

Did Nebuchadnezzar exalt himself above every god, with a golden statue?

Did the Caesars exalt themselves above every god?

Do men exalt themselves above every god when they lie, steal, betray, and kill?

Does the Caesar/Bishop of Rome exalt himself above God when he forgives sins, is called "Holy Father", says that he is the head of the church, orders people, Jews, to be killed?

The Antichrist of Dan 9 has been over the children of Israel since 63 BC.

He is just not one person. He is the leader/god of the Roman nation over centuries.

The pretrib teaching has hidden him very well.

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