What does it mean to be 'Born Again?'

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

That`s right, Jesus only functioned in the power of the Holy spirt which had come UPON Him. (Matt. 4: 16) It was that UPON Him of the Holy Spirit that was lifted off Jesus when He was dying and bearing our sin. 

Jesus` divine nature is that part of Him as the Son of God. That was/is His essence and always a part of the Godhead. 

This doesn't address the kind of death Jesus experienced on the cross while bearing our sins.  And I don't see where the Holy Spirit was "lifted off Jesus" when on the cross.

Jesus specifically asked why He was being forsaken.  The Greek word is translated as "abandoned" elsewhere in the NT.  Pretty stong words.

Since the basic meaning of 'death' is separation, it should be obvious that when Jesus was being forsaken on the cross He was separated from the Father and Spirit.  Hence, spiritual death.

[Marilyn C]

Just now, FreeGrace said:

This doesn't address the kind of death Jesus experienced on the cross while bearing our sins.  And I don't see where the Holy Spirit was "lifted off Jesus" when on the cross.

Jesus specifically asked why He was being forsaken.  The Greek word is translated as "abandoned" elsewhere in the NT.  Pretty stong words.

Since the basic meaning of 'death' is separation, it should be obvious that when Jesus was being forsaken on the cross He was separated from the Father and Spirit.  Hence, spiritual death.

As the Holy Spirit came UPON Jesus in the first place, (Matt. 3: 16) then when Jesus cried out `Father why have you forsaken me, then the Holy Spirit would have been taken away. 

Jesus died as the Son of Man in His earthly body. The Holy Spirit was taken off Him and He felt forsaken. Only as a man was He separated from God. 

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

  FreeGrace said:

This doesn't address the kind of death Jesus experienced on the cross while bearing our sins.  And I don't see where the Holy Spirit was "lifted off Jesus" when on the cross.

Jesus specifically asked why He was being forsaken.  The Greek word is translated as "abandoned" elsewhere in the NT.  Pretty stong words.

As the Holy Spirit came UPON Jesus in the first place, (Matt. 3: 16) then when Jesus cried out `Father why have you forsaken me, then the Holy Spirit would have been taken away. 

This isn't stated in Scripture.  The dove landing on Jesus during His baptism shows that He lived His life in the power of the Spirit.  This is stated in Matt 4:1 - Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

But the issue of Jesus being forsaken is much more.  Jesus quoted Psa 22:1, and the repeat of "My God" twice indicates He was talking to both the Father and the Spirit.  So the Father was involved here.  To be forsaken is to be separated from.  That is obvious.  And the basic issue of death is separation, when the soul leaves the body, which is taught in Scripture.  So when the Father and Spirit forsook Jesus, Jesus was experiencing spiritual death.  And when the bearing of sins was over, Jesus made that clear by saying "tetelestai", which means "paid (completed action-aorist tense) in full."  He could NOT have said that if His physical death was necessary to pay for the sins of mankind.  That is simply not possible.  The reason Jesus dismissed His spirit was because His mission for the first advent was complete, BEFORE He died physically.

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Jesus died as the Son of Man in His earthly body. The Holy Spirit was taken off Him and He felt forsaken. Only as a man was He separated from God. 

The time Jesus spoke was with "a loud voice" per KJV.  But the Greek means to scream at the top of the lungs.  And He only screamed during the darkness, indicating that was when He was being forsaken by the Father and Spirit.  He did not physically die in the dark.  And He never even opened His mouth during all the physical torture that led up to the cross, or as He was being put on the cross.  But He screamed when He was being forsaken.

There is no evidence that the Holy Spirit was "taken off Him" while on the cross.  All we know is what Jesus said while on the cross.  Both the Father and Spirit had forsaken Him, the Son of God.

That is the "big deal" about the cross.  God the Son was spiritually separated from God the Father and God the Spirit.  A very big deal indeed.

Physical death is no big deal.  Everyone will experience that.  But for God to be separated from the rest of the Trinity is a completely different level.  And it is THAT death (spiritual) that took the justice of God judging man's sins.  

[PATrobas]

I enjoy exploring the scriptures and examining different viewpoints. You all make good points worthy of contemplation. As persuasive as some of these arguments are, it will be the Holy Spirit who gives understanding. If you are born again, each of you has the HS, and we must remember the the other guy has Him too. As was pointed out already, we know nothing now as we ought. So, I like to get back to the original thought and that is "...ye must be born again."  Whether dead in spirit, soul or someplace else, I DID NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. After I was born from above, I now have ETERNAL LIFE. How that happened, where it happened, why it happened etc. is something God knows and we try to figure out. So my admonition to us all is to keep trying to know, know that none of us knows it all, and don't take it personal, for "iron sharpens iron." which produces sparks. Listen to the testimony of God,

1 John 5:9-13  "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.:10  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.:11  And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.:12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.:13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." Blessings, PATrobus

[AdHoc]

31 minutes ago, PATrobas said:

I enjoy exploring the scriptures and examining different viewpoints. You all make good points worthy of contemplation. As persuasive as some of these arguments are, it will be the Holy Spirit who gives understanding. If you are born again, each of you has the HS, and we must remember the the other guy has Him too. As was pointed out already, we know nothing now as we ought. So, I like to get back to the original thought and that is "...ye must be born again."  Whether dead in spirit, soul or someplace else, I DID NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. After I was born from above, I now have ETERNAL LIFE. How that happened, where it happened, why it happened etc. is something God knows and we try to figure out. So my admonition to us all is to keep trying to know, know that none of us knows it all, and don't take it personal, for "iron sharpens iron." which produces sparks. Listen to the testimony of God,

1 John 5:9-13  "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.:10  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.:11  And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.:12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.:13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." Blessings, PATrobus

Man was designed and made for two reasons. 1. To be in the image and likeness of God, and 2. to rule the earth and its environs of sea and sky. To be able to fulfill point #1, something needed to be added to man. A dog can illustrate this. A dog is a wonderful partner. He is loyal, friendly at all times, does not complain, loves you even if you kick him and never leaves you whether the times are good or bad. But you would never marry a dog. Adam, when the time came to find a "help meet", though he became familiar with all the animals, found not a partner "up to his standard" (the meaning of "meet").

However innocent and quaint Adam was, he could only fulfill a certain percentage of th display of God. Then we learn how to fully display God. By God being IN the flesh!

 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh ... (1st Tim.3:15–16).

To fully display God (liness), man must have God and God's life and God's nature IN Him. The dog, to be a companion "up to the standard of man" must undergo a fundamental metamorphosis. So before the fall man is placed before the Tree of Life and commanded to eat.

Adam was not intrinsically disobedient, but he and Eve, possessing a free will, made their decisions IN THEIR FAVOR. This could explain why the Burnt Offering is first in sequence. Let that be as it may, but Eve made a decision in her interests, and Adam, i love with her, chose he way. The accusation against Adam was not that he had eaten wrong - but that he "hearkened to the voice of his wife". Be that as it may, Adam now had sinned (in his disobedience) and picked up a fatal nature in his veins that would lead to death (in his eating).

The illustration is in Numbers 21. Though God's people they were infused and polluted with death in their veins. If they looked upon a SUBSTITUTE serpent they were not healed. They LIVED!

Law was given to give LIFE, but because the poison was intrinsic, all the Law could do was condemn a man to die. Law was good, but man's intrinsic nature led to death. And so we come to John 3 and Nicodemus. Here was a sincere man well versed in God's Word. He approaches Jesus for some better Law - maybe one that was effective. Our Lord Jesus meets him with the ONLY solution - A FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE OF NATURE. Out with the dog-nature and in with the human nature. Or, more accurate, somebody had to deal a death blow to the poison in his veins and somebody or something had to REPLACE it.

The Tree of Life was good for giving a new and living and divine nature, but it had no means to deal the death blow. Now the serpent must be judged and bitten must have FAITH (to look for life needs faith). Introduce the TREE of death and God's plan is in place. We take the serpent (a picture of our sinful nature), put it on One Who Knew no sin (Jesus), judge it (brass) on a tree (the cross) and those who only look (by faith) and call upon, or confess (get wind into the system), WILL be released from the retribution and thus the way for LIFE to enter is free.

As the New Life flows into a man it is a New Birth - not to replace one that was dead or injured, but a fully New Creation of an EMPTY MAN being filled. To avoid an immediate catastrophic battle, the man experiencing the NEW birth has this momentous event LIMITED TO THE SPIRIT. The man new part is separated from the old part - the flesh and an unholy battle begins (Gal.5:17). The Newly Born is like Israel. In the one end is the Tabernacle with God's presence and opposed to it is the AMALEKITES. God has declared a WAR "from generation to generation" and all the Newly Born man must do is DECLARE THIS WAR AND ITS LOGICAL OUTCOME by being immersed in the death-waters of Baptism.

From God's side all is well. Sin and sins are put away. the forgiven man has a new nature and the flesh is buried in the flood. To SEE the Kingdom you mut be BORN-ANEW - meaning a SECOND BIRTH totally replacing the effects of the Tree of Life - and because the flesh is as DAD under the waters of Baptism - Christ can "draw ALL men unto Himself". the stage is set for ALL men, NOT to be born again, but TO BE RESURRECTED (1st Cor.15:22).

But there remains a problem. How does God get a Gentile to be an HEIR of the Promises made to Abraham? He has no way to make them Jews because then they really would have to climb back into Sarah's womb. This would in turn, put them under Law. God solves it sovereignly. The new Birth is by the Holy Spirit - not a woman through Jesus Christ. This makes the New Born sons of God and Heirs, not to Canaan, but the whole world (Rom.4:13). The New Born are HEIRS by being the sons of God. But seed of Abraham they must be - for the Covenant for about 15 promises is made only with seed of Abraham. God solves this by making Jesus the seed of a New Creature, a New Man. He is a universal grain of Wheat (Remember Matthew 13) and the New Man comes out of this grain of Wheat (Jn.12:24). And so, if Jesus is a "seed of Abraham, and we come out of Him - we are seed of Abraham without becoming Jews and without the Law (Gal.3:29).

God is brilliant. he solves about 6 problems by a Lamb and a Tree. Adam was commanded to eat of the Tree of Life. Now we eat the Lamb - and LIVE.Law is excluded as a mean to justification and the Life of a most perfect Man is imputed to us.

[AdHoc]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Matt, 10: 28 Ànd fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the `psuche:`but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both `psuche`and body in hell.`

Greek `psuche` implies spirit. 

There is no mention of God destroying a man`s soul - the rational and immortal soul. 

Greetings esteemed sister;

"psuche" implies "Psuche". It does no good to change the meaning.

In the creation of man God used clay and "formed" the man - his BODY. "Yatsar" in the Hebrew
He "made" the man with His exiting breath - his SPIRIT. "Asah" - to make of existing materials
He CREATED the soul from nothing - the SOUL. "bara" in the Hebrew.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul Ge 2:7

The word "became" means "was not before and now is"

7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created (bara) him for my glory, I have formed (yatsar) him; yea, I have made (asah) him. Isa.43:7

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour

In Luke 1:46-47 the soul is joined to the spirit with "and" ("kai" - Gk) It is a conjunction. "and" is copulative, cumulative and sequential. Therefore, in Luke 1:46–47. soul and spirit are two different things.

In following the lord you LOSE your "soul-life". But your spirit is built up.
In the Temple, which you are, there is a Holy Place (the soul) and a Holy of Holies (the spirit) - two distinct places.

At death the spirit returns to God (in heaven). Your body is rotted to the elements. and your SOUL goes to Hades in the heart of the earth. Three distinct parts with three distinct functions and three distinct destinations at death.

No mention of God destroying the soul?  Try Matthew 10:28;

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

 

[AdHoc]

18 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Shown by the FACT that Gen 2:17 includes TWO deaths.  We know he didn't keel over when he ate the fruit, so what could the other death be?  Please share.

It's time for you to share. Every good translation except Young's Literal uses a less cumbersome rendering. To build a doctrine on a controversial rendering can be done, but should have backup. It is uncertain that two deaths are revealed.

But maybe there are two deaths. On that fateful Passover our Lord Jesus faced the wrath of His Father. He first faced "The Second Death" and from 9 a.m. till 3 p.m He faced death. But then you didn't bring this up. I did - and you gave it symbolic value.

I have shown a willingness to discuss at length and asked you to document your crucial statements. This you refuse to do. I judge the reason for this to be your low estimation of my Bible knowledge and my character traits. But this is a strange tactic as in the Christian world we know 1. that the genuine follower of the Lord will be reviled, and 2. that to suffer insult at the hand of opponents only increases one's heavenly bank account. Further, such tactics automatically puts you on the side of prophet-killers according to Matthew 5:11-12.

Now, I suggest that we stop here and you build a grammatically sound and logical case for spiritual double death, with examples and enough scripture to show it in plain language. Then we can move on to show why Christ's blood is only to be taken symbolically, even though it is needed to ratify the New Covenant, and used to correct the demand of Abel's blood. Then, you can also briefly show why there are animal sacrifices in the millennium WITH Jesus Himself sacrificing the Passover (Lk.22).

Of course, if you regard such an exercise frivolous then no need to even answer.

Go well.

[FreeGrace]

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

FreeGrace said:

Shown by the FACT that Gen 2:17 includes TWO deaths.  We know he didn't keel over when he ate the fruit, so what could the other death be?  Please share.

It's time for you to share.

I have been.  Google Gen 2:17 and the Hebrew.  You will see that there are 2 deaths in that warning.

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Every good translation except Young's Literal uses a less cumbersome rendering. To build a doctrine on a controversial rendering can be done, but should have backup. It is uncertain that two deaths are revealed.

None of the English translations include "dying" but it is in the Hebrew.  It is easily googled.

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But maybe there are two deaths. On that fateful Passover our Lord Jesus faced the wrath of His Father. He first faced "The Second Death" and from 9 a.m. till 3 p.m He faced death. But then you didn't bring this up. I did - and you gave it symbolic value.

The Bible only describes one "second death" and that is another word for the lake of fire.  Rev 20:14 and several more.

The death He faced from 9am to 3pm was spiritual death, when the Father and Spirit forsook Him.

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I have shown a willingness to discuss at length and asked you to document your crucial statements. This you refuse to do. 

I have not.  What Jesus SAID on the cross is my documentation, along with Gen 2:17.

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I judge the reason for this to be your low estimation of my Bible knowledge and my character traits.

Not at all.  Please don't "judge" me.  You have no basis for it.

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But this is a strange tactic as in the Christian world we know 1. that the genuine follower of the Lord will be reviled, and 2. that to suffer insult at the hand of opponents only increases one's heavenly bank account. Further, such tactics automatically puts you on the side of prophet-killers according to Matthew 5:11-12.

Are you suggesting that I am reviling anyone??  Or insulting anyone??

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Now, I suggest that we stop here and you build a grammatically sound and logical case for spiritual double death,

No.  There is NO "spiritual double death" and I have no idea where you are getting your ideas from.  But it's not my claim.

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

with examples and enough scripture to show it in plain language. Then we can move on to show why Christ's blood is only to be taken symbolically, even though it is needed to ratify the New Covenant

The new covenant was ratified by the spiritual death of Jesus.

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

and used to correct the demand of Abel's blood.

What are you referring to here?  "correct the demand"??

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Then, you can also briefly show why there are animal sacrifices in the millennium WITH Jesus Himself sacrificing the Passover (Lk.22).

I don't know why there.  God clearly hasn't given every fact that's out there.

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Of course, if you regard such an exercise frivolous then no need to even answer.

Go well.

My views are solidly based on the very words of Jesus.  That isn't frivolous to me.

[TheBlade]

The way,  Truth and life All for The King.. its playing as I read this thread.  He is the way the truth the life, He is the way the truth the life". You know side note.. I wonder.. the moment we start praising Him... oh hmm to the angels around us just start doing the same? How can you not want to.. ALL creation worships Him.. He is the way the Truth the life.. He is the way the truth the life!.. haha I want to do this all day.. 

Oh it would be so wonderful to hear Him say it. You would see the love the mercy the grace the compassion. No judging no condemnation just love. 'but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Gift.. ever give someone a gift? How do you do it? It seems born again some make sure to say "you better read the fine print or your doomed". "The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

"He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,"

I'm free from the fear of tomorrow,
I'm free from the guilt of the past;
For I've traded my shackles for a glorious song,
I'm Free! Praise the Lord! Free at last!

I'm free from the guilt that I carried,
From that dull empty life I'm set free;
For when I met Jesus, He made me complete,
He forgot how foolish I used to be.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 11/24/2024 at 10:32 AM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Yes, the purpose of why he came and died was finished but that does not mean all of what the Law and Prophets said of Messiah are finished.  The law and prophets also spoke of many more prophecies that have not been fulfilled and will not be fulfilled until his return.  There are still future prophecies that are still unfulfilled regarding his 2nd coming, Millennial reign,  New Jerusalem, and the New Heaven and New Earth spoken of in the Law and Prophets.

This is why Jesus said said it would be easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the Law to pass away, and not one jot or tittle will of the Law and Prophets will in no wise pass from the law until ALL be fulfilled.    

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Mat 5:17-19 

Luke 22:40–44 NKJV

40 When He came to the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may no enter into temptation.”

41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not my will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 

44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. 

      In verse 42 in Luke 22 Jesus said: “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not my will, but Yours, be done.”

From the above passage Jesus knowing that the time has come to obey the Father in what he us asking him to go through and at the end die on the Cross. Jesus is asking the Father if it is possible to accomplish the purpose God had in his plans with his suffering and his death on the Cross by some other way.

And Jesus saying not my will but yours be done indicates that there was not any other way and Jesus said that He is ready to go through in what the Father was asking him which indicates that this was the appointed time from the Heavenly Father. 

As Jesus had said that there are some things that only the Father knows the appointed time. That shows that the Father was in charge and in command about Jesus mission and Jesus knowing what it will happen to him and what had to take place he followed up in what the Father was asking him because The Father was in charge. The Father was in command and Jesus surrender in what was happening to him and he did not try to resist or try to do anything but he left everything in the Father's Devine Providence. 

In verse 43 in Luke 22 after Jesus said to the Heavenly Father not my will but your be done, which indicates that Jesus was in comunion with the Father that the Father was talking to him at that precise moment and time and when Jesus said that he is ready to drink this cup something happened. 

Verse 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 

For this to happened it indicates that the Father was not in active communication with Jesus and Jesus was on his own and then an Angel came to strengthen Him.

And at that moment whike Jesus briefly spoke to his disciples the noise of a crowd coming his way was heard.

The last time we have Jesus with an Angel who was sent from the Father to strengthen him. Jesus was in the knowledge that it was everything done according to the will of God and the divine time because an Angel of God came to him to be with him and strengthen him. 

The Angel walked with Jesus in Jesus suffering and was strengthen him along the way to let Jesus know that he was in the will of God and protect him from anything that could have resulted in his premature death before the right time. 

This is not the first time the Father has sent Angels to minister to Jesus and strengthening Him.  

Edited November 30, 2024 by Your closest friendnt