Rome or Islam?

[WilliamL]

On 12/16/2024 at 9:37 AM, JoeCanada said:

But when we look at Rome, things just don't seem to fit the criteria the bible lays out for  the fourth kingdom/beast in Dan 2 and 7.

Scripture says the fourth kingdom of iron will crush, trample, devour and pulverize the three kingdoms before it.... Dan 2:40

Depends on when you believe the Roman Empire ended. If you believe 476 BC, then you would be correct. But if you see the Roman Empire as the Beast's head that had the stroke of death and yet lived, per Rev. 13, then the understanding is that the Holy Roman Empire and its descendancy did indeed conquer all the lands of the first three kingdoms.

The Transition Era

Daniel 11:38 But in his place/estate/station he shall give glory to a god of fortresses; and to a god which his fathers knew not he shall give glory with gold, and with silver, and with precious stones, and with desirable things. 39 And/so he shall act for defenders of fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall cause to revere, cause to multiply glory; and he shall cause them to rule among the multitudes. And he shall divide/allot land at a profit.

The much-debated passage of Daniel 11:38-39 speaks only in general terms about the transition period between the time of the god-man Antiochus and “the time of the end.” This passage begins with the phrase, “in his [Antiochusʼs] place/estate/station,” a phrase used previously in verses 7, 20, and 21 to describe the transition of the Seleucid kingdom from a king to his descendant.

The Hebrew noun for “place/estate/station” literally means “something set up.” That is, each king inherited the cumulative “set-ups” of the kingly line, and then added his own acts upon them. These set-ups included, most importantly, the establishment of a belief system.

As noted above, the belief system culminating with Antiochus, which was then passed along to the Romans, was that great human rulers can become known as, and then should be worshiped as, gods.

Upon that “estate,” descendent rulers began to “give glory to a god of fortresses.” Dan. 11:38 Uniquely among the four beast-kingdoms of Daniel 7, the Romans were fort-builders. Previously, cities and temples were what had been fortified, and armies were garrisoned within them at need. But the Roman Empire became the greatest of the four through the practice of their legions building forts for themselves. By this means, their armies were able to concentrate their forces on the ever-expanding boundaries of the empire. There they were readily available to deal with incipient threats, without requiring the time and expense of moving soldiers, equipment, and supplies long distances. (Whereas, for example, the practice of Antiochus was to plunder and leave. This allowed the conquered peoples time to regroup and resist, as the Maccabees did.)

The practice of building military bases, not fortified cities, became the standard for the Anglo-European posterity of the Roman Empire. (That is, those Western governments principally deriving their laws, traditions, and governments from Roman ones.) In our day, such military bases are found throughout the world.

In Revelation 2:12-14, Jesus said the city of Pergamos was “where Satanʼs throne is…where Satan dwells.” According to Strongʼs (G4010), Pergamos means Fortified (Place); it was the capital of Roman Asia. In the Apostle Johnʼs day, the ancient Babylonian religion was practiced in its temple. Many tenets of that religion became infused within pagan Rome, and later within the Roman Church. Therefore, Pergamos may have been the source of the “foreign god” “which [Antiochusʼ] fathers knew not.” In the 1890s, a substantial part of Pergamosʼs ancient temple was disassembled, moved to, and reconstructed in Berlin, where it stands today.

This brings us up to “the time of the end” events of Daniel 11:40 – 12:13, to be examined in Part 3.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1418-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-2-the-transition-from-the-past-to-the-present/

 

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

X Fretensis, a legion of Arab conscripts, destroyed the Temple in defiance of orders from Titus

Depends on the date of Revelation.

Not if Revelation was the later date, there would be 13 kings

After whom was resurrected?

 

That's not evidence of Rome.

 

See #1

 

I don't see gematria as factual evidence.

A persecutor of the disciples isn't mentioned as evidence for the identification for the end of the age beast and empire anywhere in Daniel.

 

This prophecy may not be referring to a world power like Rome. I tend toward the religion of Catholicism, not a secular, military power.

 

Rome and the RCC aren't synonymous

 

No. The prophecy says the kingdom was divided, not defeated. 

Don't underestimate, hungry, angry zealots.

All religions are based on the same ideology of elevating man, and that ideology comes from Satan. Satan is at the helm behind the scenes of every religion ever conceived. 

Your answer is noted. Thanks. I'll let my proofs stand. May the reader judge.

[Luther]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

With the takeover of Syria radical Islam is now the dominant ideology in the Middle East. 

Radical Islam nearly destroyed the world once. 

Most Muslims are not radical ( thank God). But for the ones that are, they present a grave danger to Christians, who are the minority. In America, Christians have been attacked, not physically, but by societal forces enlightened by cultural Marxism.

It's probably worse than a direct confrontation, because if you really stand with Jesus Christ, if He is your LORD and Savior, you are silently despised by everyone around you. You know that when the laws change in favor of Antichrist, you will then be persecuted. Bring it on. It only means that Jesus will come shortly thereafter. 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 12/15/2024 at 5:35 AM, Diaste said:

When I study the scripture and history about the end of the age empire I find the following:

It all starts in Daniel 2 in the interpretation of the dream.

You are that head of gold.

39But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours.

Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth

Yes, the Greek Kingdom has to rule the WHOLE EARTH, using the keys God gives us to unravel this riddle, we can understand why the Greek kingdom is said to rule the whole earth, when Greece never did, of course, nor did they rule the WHOLE EARTH being spoken about. Well, what do the keys show that land to be in each case? Well, where do the Beasts Arise from? The Great [Mediterranean] Sea so each kingdom is only about how it rules over Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region(MSR), the maps of each proves this out, but we will just compare the Greek and Rome maps of old.

 

So, Greece never ruled the whole world for sure, they did not even rule over the whole land being spoken about in these prophetic utterings. I do not think they even ruled over half the MSR.

Now NOTICE, Rome who tread the whole region down and crushed all the land that God is speaking unto us about, the Mediterranean Sea Region, Greece didn't, but God can not lie right RIGHT? Which means we have to KEY in on all of the clues to the last Beast, who has to fulfill that portion of Dan. 2's prophesy. You see guys, God is going to make the last beast man a conglomerate of three Beasts (OR MORE). He's going to have an Assyrian Bloodline so says Isaiah chapter 10 amongst others, he has to arise from  the Greek Empire, Dan. 8:9 MANDATES THIS because of the Direction he conquers in, towards the East (Seleucid/Turkey) and towards the South (Ptolemy/Egypt) and towards Israel. But alas, he also has to arise from the political apparatus of old Rome, so says Dan. 7:7-8, he arises AMIDST the 10 Horns (Complete Europe Reunited) this means this man has to be born in the 10 (E.U.) and of course Greece is in the E.U. So, God gave this to me about 8 or so years ago, via studying I saw it. This man will have an Assyrian bloodline, meaning he has blood that stretches back to old Assyria mostly Northern Iraq and Southern Turkey, and thus if he has to be born in Greece, somewhere down the line his family tree migrated across a common border from Turkey to Greece. This man is then born in Greece, which is in the E.U. fulfilling both Dan. 8:9 and Dan 7:7-8. So, if you were studying the coming of the Messiah a little over 2000 years ago, and you saw the passages that says My Son will come out of Egypt, and the one that states the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, would you have understood they must BOTH BE TRUE? If you think so, why doesn't all three of these Prophesies have to come true also? He must have Assyrian blood, he must be born in Greece and he must come unto his Political Power in the vestiges of Fourth Beasts 10 (Complete Revival of the E.U.) Horns. All three must mesh, just like the two I mentioned meshed, Jesus was born in Bethlehem, then Mary & Joseph fled unto Egypt. 

This is the ONLY WAY, a Greek King can conquer ALL THE WHO EARTH (land being spoken about), remember, 1/3 of the land (New World IMHO) is being burned. God is bringing forth a man who represents all the Beasts as he topples their statue. 

Now, does this jibe with the AREA the King of the North is said to conquer? Well yes, if we combine the E.U. current Landmass with this man Conquering Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, and then all of North Africa as Dan. 11:40-43 shows is in the 7th Syrian War to come (7 = Completion ). 

Blue is the E.U. light blue is Turkey and Orange is all those nations who are in a signed agreement as we speak with the E.U. it is called the European Neighborhood Policy (ENP). These Agreements have run in 7 years cycles. ABOVE is Dan. 11:40-43 go read it, he conquers Turkey as Dan. 8:9 says, and as Dan. 11:40-43 says he conquers COUNTRIES to get at Israel. The E.U. King would conquer in what direction? To the East and to the South, just as Dan. 8:9 says, and Dan. 11:40-43 says he conquers COUNTRIES............Israel, then All of North Africa. BOOM, This is when the Anti-Christ becomes the end time Beast, NOTICE, like Rome he will have treaded down every square inch of the Mediterranean Sea Region Coastline. The Fourth Beast lives again, but the AC is the MAN BEAST himself, because he never passes his Kingdom on to an heir. 

On 12/15/2024 at 5:35 AM, Diaste said:

When the prophetic narrative foretells a Syrian kings from the line of Seleucid will commit the A of D, then what immediately follows is a prophecy of the beast of the end of the age, do we conclude an Arabic, Muslim, Islamic end of the age beast, or Rome?

 

We have to mesh all of the qualified prophesies, not just one.

Edited December 18, 2024 by Revelation Man

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

So, Greece never ruled the whole world for sure, they did not even rule over the whole land being spoken about in these prophetic utterings. I do not think they even ruled over half the MSR.

Greece ruled over all the same land mass that  King Neb ruled, Babylon being the key.

If you look at the Roman empire extent under Emperor Trajan on the map that you posted, it covers Babylon but not Persia. Rome never defeated Persia.

Now, if you look at this map (https://www.worldhistory.org/image/14936/the-journey-of-hadrian-117-118-ce/) sorry I couldn't post the map ... of the Roman Empire under Emperor Trajan 117-118 AD, it shows Rome had pulled way back to the eastern Syrian border .... less than one year after marching on Babylon. They could not defeat the Arabs in their guerilla warfare, so they pulled back, never able to take control of Babylon.

So Rome never defeated Persia or Babylon, which were part of King Nebs kingdom. 

This is part of the criteria that Scripture lays out for the 4th kingdom/beast empire,.... the 4th terrifying beast/kingdom would crush and devour and trample on all the empires before it.

Rome just does not fit the bill.

But ... you are welcome to try and drive a square peg in a round hole.

Get a bigger hammer !

 

[Diaste]

On 12/17/2024 at 6:46 PM, Revelation Man said:

Yes, the Greek Kingdom has to rule the WHOLE EARTH, using the keys God gives us to unravel this riddle, we can understand why the Greek kingdom is said to rule the whole earth, when Greece never did, of course, nor did they rule the WHOLE EARTH being spoken about. Well, what do the keys show that land to be in each case? Well, where do the Beasts Arise from? The Great [Mediterranean] Sea so each kingdom is only about how it rules over Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region(MSR), the maps of each proves this out, but we will just compare the Greek and Rome maps of old.

 

So, Greece never ruled the whole world for sure, they did not even rule over the whole land being spoken about in these prophetic utterings. I do not think they even ruled over half the MSR.

Now NOTICE, Rome who tread the whole region down and crushed all the land that God is speaking unto us about, the Mediterranean Sea Region, Greece didn't, but God can not lie right RIGHT? which means we have to KEY in on all of the clues to the last Beast, who has to fulfill that portion of Dan. 2's prophesy. You see guys, God is going to make the last beast man a conglomerate of three Beasts. He's going to have an Assyrian Bloodline so says Isaiah chapter 10 amongst others, he has to arise from  the Greek Empire, Dan. 8:9 MANDATES THIS because of the Direction he conquers in, towards the East (Seleucid/Turkey) and towards the South (Ptolemy/Egypt) and towards Israel. But alas, he also he to arise from the political apparatus of old Rome, so says Dan. 7:7-8, he arises AMIDST the 10 Horns (Complete Europe Reunited) this means this man has to be born in the 10 (E.U.) and of course Greece is in the E.U. So, Gd gave this to mean 8 or so years ago, via studying I saw it. This man will have an Assyrian bloodline, meaning he has blood that stretches back to old Assyria mostly Northern Iraq and Southern Turkey, and this if he has to be born in Greece, somewhere down the line his family tree migrated across a common border from Turkey to Greece. This man is then born in Greece, which is in the E.U. fulfilling both Dan. 8:9 and Dan 7:7-8. So, if you were studying the coming of the Messiah a little over 2000 years ago, and you saw the passages that says My Son will come out of Egypt, and the one that states the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, would you have understood they must BOTH BE TRUE? If you think so, why doesn't all three of these Prophesies have to come true also? He must have Assyrian blood. he must be born in Greece and he must come un to his Political Power in the Fourth Beasts 10 (Complete Revival of the E.U.) Horns. All three must mesh, just like the two I mentioned meshed, Jesus was born in Bethlehem, then Mary & Joseph fled unto Egypt. 

This is the ONLY WAY, a Greek King can conquer ALL THE WHO EARTH (land being spoken about), remember, 1/3 of the land (New World IMHO) is being burned. God is bringing forth a man who represents all the Beasts as he topples their statue. 

Now, does this jibe with the AREA the King of the North is said to conquer? Well yes, if we combine the E.U. current Landmass with this man Conquering Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, and then all of North Africa as Dan. 11:40-43 shows is in the 7th Syrian War to come (7 = Completion ). 

Blue is the E.U. light blue is Turkey and Orange is all those nations who are in a signed agreement as we speak with the E.U. it is called the European Neighborhood Policy (ENP). These Agreements have run in 7 years cycles. ABOVE is Dan. 11:40-43 go read it, he conquers Turkey as Dan. 8:9 says, and as Dan. 11:40-43 says he conquers COUNTRIES to get at Israel. The E.U. King would conquer in what direction? To the East and to the South, just as Dan. 8:9 says, and Dan. 11:40-43 says he conquers COUNTRIES............Israel, then All of North Africa. BOOM, This is when  the Anti-Christ becomes the end time Beast, NOTICE, like Rome he will have treaded down every square inch of the MSR Coastline. The Fourth Beast lives again, but the AC is the MAN BEAST himself, because he never passes his Kingdom on to an heir. 

We have to mesh all of the qualified prophesies, not just one.

One must account for critical information in the conclusion. False premise after false premise does not result in a true conclusion.

What you miss it the obvious succession in Dan 11:1-4 and the identity of the king in Dan 11:29-31. Dan 11:29-31 is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He is a grandson of Seleucus I Nicator. This points in the correct direction. 

It's like you're on a flight from MPLS to Dallas insisting the flight is going to Greenland. 

In no way is this:

" 21The shaggy goat represents the king of Greece,b and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation but will not have the same power."

Or this:

"Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. 4But as soon as he is established, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the authority with which he ruled, because his kingdom will be uprooted and given to others."

 ...the EU, or whatever European group du jour is on the menu. The EU is not a part of what the scriptures tell us about the end of the age beast.

As @Marilyn C says, the beast is Assyrian, by the scriptures.

As @JoeCanada says, Babylon is key, also by the scriptures.

You just keep ignoring what's right in front of you in favor of a weak ideology. 

Edited December 19, 2024 by Diaste

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Dan. 11:38 Uniquely among the four beast-kingdoms of Daniel 7, the Romans were fort-builders. Previously, cities and temples were what had been fortified, and armies were garrisoned within them at need. But the Roman Empire became the greatest of the four through the practice of their legions building forts for themselves.

I have looked through Dan 7 multiple times, I do not see Rome. In Dan 7 Rome is a conclusion looking for supporting evidence; as is Rome in all eschatology concerning the beast and his authority. 

In Dan 7 we see the prophecy of the 4th beast:

"After this, as I watched in my vision in the night, suddenly a fourth beast appeared, and it was terrifying—dreadful and extremely strong—with large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed; then it trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the beasts before it, and it had ten horns. 8While I was contemplating the horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like those of a man and a mouth that spoke words of arrogance."

And the interpretation:

"This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it. 24And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. 25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time."

Focusing on the highlighted sections, what makes the 4th kingdom different? Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar, the Medo-Persian kingdom and the Grecian Empire under Alexander were all pretty much same socially giving lots of freedom to their citizens. Rome was modeled in the same vein. Rome, and the three known kingdoms above, gave citizens great latitude in business, politics and religion. About the only thing one had to do was pay taxes and not be a rebel or a danger to peace in the realm. 

I suggest the difference we will notice is the change from a secular political governance to a theocratic rule. This is obvious to me from Rev 13, et al, where the beast is to be worshiped on pain of death as well as self exaltation of the beast above all gods. 

Then, Rome rather preserved than destroyed. They wanted peace and taxes and working population, this coming kingdom is set to destroy the earth and trample and crush.

I don't see the parallels.

 

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Greece ruled over all the same land mass that  King Neb ruled, Babylon being the key.

If you look at the Roman empire extent under Emperor Trajan on the map that you posted, it covers Babylon but not Persia. Rome never defeated Persia.

ANYTHING more than the Mediterranean Sea Region and Israel is not relevant to the Beast Prophesies. The Beast is used by God against Israel, so each Beast has to rule over Israel and parts of the Mediterranean Sea Region. Also, Israel must be an entity in the land, that is why the British Empire nor the Ottoman Empire can be seen as Beasts, because God saw Israel as Dead Men's Bones until 1948. This is why the beasts all arise from the Great Sea and are spoken about in reference unto that region only.

So, Rome not covering all of what Babylon did, nor Greece which went all the way to India is not relevant, the relevant part is in accordance to how much of the Mediterranean Sea Region they covered. That is the ONLY LAND being spoken about in each Beast System's reign hence they rose out of the Great Sea. Babylon and Persia wasn't even on the Great Sea, so why say they rose out of the Great Sea? Because THE STORY God is telling us is about these Kingdoms who rule over Israel and the MSR only. 

10 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

So Rome never defeated Persia or Babylon, which were part of King Nebs kingdom. 

 

Yes, that is true brother, but its not about the other regions, it is only about the Mediterranean Sea Region. That is THE LAND or "WHOLE EARTH" being spoken about. If Greece had defeated India and China, it would still not have been relevant to them being a Beast over Israel and the MSR. 

10 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

This is part of the criteria that Scripture lays out for the 4th kingdom/beast empire,.... the 4th terrifying beast/kingdom would crush and devour and trample on all the empires before it.

 

When one understands that it only pertains to the MSR, then each Kingdom succeeded the other kingdom, Babylon conquered the MSR first (out of these 4, Assyria and Egypt did also of course) then Persia pushed their way past them, then Greece took over from them, then Rome took over from Greece, and this is well known. 

Dan. 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

It conquers only Greece and that is not even a straight up conquering,  Rome and Greece kind of ruled side by side for years and Rome got stronger and stronger and Greece got weaker and weaker, so it stamped the RESIDUE [of all the other kingdoms] with its feet. Why did their rule somewhat overlap? Because the LAST BEAST will be born in Greece but come to power out of the Head of the Fourth Beast amidst the 10 (Complete E.U.) and Greece is in the E.U. Jesus came while the Fourth Beast Ruled ON PURPOSE, the Pax Romanus is what allowed the Gospel to be spread so successfully, the Disciples were citizens of Rome, thus they could travel throughout the Empire freely, and they spoke Koine Greek throughout the Roman Empire. The Fourth Beast is not Muslim, they will be wiped out by the Anti-Christ if they live in his Kingdom.

 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

One must account for critical information in the conclusion. False premise after false premise does not result in a true conclusion.

What you miss it the obvious succession in Dan 11:1-4 and the identity of the king in Dan 11:29-31. Dan 11:29-31 is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He is a grandson of Seleucus I Nicator. This points in the correct direction. 

It's like you're on a flight from MPLS to Dallas insisting the flight is going to Greenland. 

In no way is:

" 21The shaggy goat represents the king of Greece,b and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation but will not have the same power."

Or this:

"Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. 4But as soon as he is established, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the authority with which he ruled, because his kingdom will be uprooted and given to others."

The EU, or whatever European group du jour is on the menu, is not a part of what the scriptures tell us. 

As @Marilyn C says, the beast is Assyrian, by the scriptures.

As @JoeCanada says, Babylon is key, also by the scriptures.

You just keep ignoring what's right in front of you in favor of a weak ideology. 

He is Assyrian by blood, he is Greek by BIRTH, and he comes to power in the E.U. because he is a Citizen of the E.U. I understand all this, I understand he's not a Muslim. You are trying to fit in one man's bad interpretation, Joel Richardson gave you guys the Soup of the Day.

The two maps tell us who he is, we see Rome, then we see the E.U. and all those the AC Conquers in Dan. 11:40-43, which creates a Kingdom IDENTICAL to Old Rome in 117 AD. 

Why do you think we get a RUN-DOWN of every Greek King in Daniel 11? Just for fun? No, we get every king up to Antiochus Epiphanes, the Archetype AC, then in verses 36-45 we get the END TIME (Greek born) Anti-Christ. 

You will have wasted years searching, and when you get to Heaven God the Father will say I tried to show you but you would not listen. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by Revelation Man

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

ANYTHING more than the Mediterranean Sea Region and Israel is not relevant to the Beast Prophesies. The Beast is used by God against Israel, so each Beast has to rule over Israel and parts of the Mediterranean Sea Region.

Ok ... but if one looks at the land that Babylon under King Neb (he is the head of gold) conquered, there was very little on the MSR.

There was a bit of Egypt to the Nile River, Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey about as far as Tarsus. That's about it.

Showing a map of the land area that Rome conquered is a bit deceptive. But I guess it helps in a persons theory of the 4th beast being Rome.