Stirring the Waters, Not the Pot.

[Alive]

12 minutes ago, FriendofJonathan said:

I'll certainly try, but it does seem to be an awful lot of piling on. 

Please trust me when I suggest that you are in part imagining something not happening and in part bringing it on yourself.

This forum like any, exists for conversation. When you or I make a statement, many other members will likely respond. Sometimes most may disagree. This does not equate to ‘piling on’. This dynamic is not for everyone.

Lighten up and give us some time. You may find a home here. I hope you do.

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, other one said:

This is an example of people missing the subject the scripture is all about by getting hug up on translation differences.  It will happen in your class if not careful.  The question about verse 4 is basically saying an angel is responsible for the water string, but we know the water stirs through what is written in verse 7.  What it's about is Jesus healing the man and if we get caught up on whether a missing verse should be there or not some might miss the real story.

I agree that it does not detract from the Gospel message. My first point is when someone says, "I do not have that verse(s) in my Bible." Oh well, I will skip that. No, I think a brief explanation is in order to explain the manuscripts used, and later insertions, and why.

The second point I was going to make is that I believe the angel stirring the water is a myth and superstition that the Jews believed in for some reason. Most scholars and theologians agree on that point. A brief example:

The earliest manuscripts omit these words which appear to be a late insertion to explain why the pool water was “stirred” (v. 7). People believed that an angel came and stirred it. According to local tradition, the first one in the water would be healed. But the Bible nowhere teaches this kind of superstition, a situation which would be a most cruel contest for many ill people. No extant Greek manuscript before a.d. 400 contains these words.¹¹ Blum, Edwin A. 1985. “John.” In The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures, edited by J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck, 2:289. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Well,there seems to be much controversy amongst Biblical scholars regarding this "Angel" ,doesn't there? Lol

Some claim later scribes added the angel to give reason or support the " stirring".... others say it's questionable what was authentic & original in those earliest versions and many other arguments

Well,the Counselor Knows Exactly what took place,doesn't He?...

 My advice to you dear Brother is to ask our Lord to Reveal His Truth..as for me,it is a trivial thing if anyone saw an Angel of God stirring ( troubling) the waters- somebody stirred them and Whomever it was did this just as He Calmed the Storm & seas - with just a WORD....

Your question was does it sound " SOUND" Doctrinally,Exegetically & Biblically..... Indeed it does,to me!

Brother,Remember when  David told his army " shhhh,wait wait- listen first for the rustling of the leaves atop the trees".....I Believe the Heavenly Angels rustled those leaves as they flew down to fight David's enemy.....it's been Laid upon my heart..... Trust God Dennis

With love in Christ,Kwik

 

 

 

 

 

Greetings Kwik,

I just responded to other one, no need to repeat myself. As I responded, I think it is superstition and cruel as outlined, with no Biblical support.

[other one]

2 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I agree that it does not detract from the Gospel message. My first point is when someone says, "I do not have that verse(s) in my Bible." Oh well, I will skip that. No, I think a brief explanation is in order to explain the manuscripts used, and later insertions, and why.

The second point I was going to make is that I believe the angel stirring the water is a myth and superstition that the Jews believed in for some reason. Most scholars and theologians agree on that point. A brief example:

The earliest manuscripts omit these words which appear to be a late insertion to explain why the pool water was “stirred” (v. 7). People believed that an angel came and stirred it. According to local tradition, the first one in the water would be healed. But the Bible nowhere teaches this kind of superstition, a situation which would be a most cruel contest for many ill people. No extant Greek manuscript before a.d. 400 contains these words.¹¹ Blum, Edwin A. 1985. “John.” In The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures, edited by J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck, 2:289. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

From what I have personally seen and experienced in the Spirit word, I would not discard it being an angel of some sort.  Especially if people were actually healed and from reading the scripture that we know was there, it sounds like they were.  I've seen miracles and know they happen.

My point was that it doesn't really matter in this case if the verse is there or not.   If someone asked about it you should be able to explain why.  Once you open those discussions it's open to questioning the Bible itself.  However there are a few places it's worth the trip down the rabbit hole.

[Alive]

We have like at no other time, an embarrassment of riches that prove the authenticity of the scriptures as God intended us to have.

It’s inevitable for there to be some differences across manuscripts and honest translations. With very few exceptions as a student, I have not seen any that put the Truth of the Gospel at risk. The Lord Himself is invested in His People having Truth available.

Its wonderful, that we can rest in this.

[1to3]

Hello @Denis;

When I first read the story , I rejoiced in what Christ Jesus did. He had Mercy and Grace over this invalid of a man and healed him.

however what saddens me is that for some reason satan wants to keep people off track of what Christ Jesus did and look at all other things around the story and always overlooking the most crucial of all: The Mercy and Grace Christ Jesus had over this invalid of a man and healed him.

The importance of this story seems lost on many.

Why?

A man crippled for nearly forty years would have made quite a dramatic example of healing and give the reader a lot of hope of what Christ can do if we only come to Him by faith and believe and receive and choose to pick up our mats and walk by faith in Him and His Word.

Lesson to Remember: While we are immersed in our sufferings, He waits for us to call out to Him, so we can know and experience His healing love.

 

With God ALL things are possible. Amen!Amen! Amen!

Matthew 19:26

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

 

[Dennis1209]

39 minutes ago, Alive said:

We have like at no other time, an embarrassment of riches that prove the authenticity of the scriptures as God intended us to have.

It’s inevitable for there to be some differences across manuscripts and honest translations. With very few exceptions as a student, I have not seen any that put the Truth of the Gospel at risk. The Lord Himself is invested in His People having Truth available.

Its wonderful, that we can rest in this.

You got it. God’s word has been preserved through the ages. It was penned by man under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and lasts forever.

1 Peter 1:25 (KJV) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

It isn't easy to translate Hebrew and Greek into English, as those languages are more precise, and there may not be any English equivalents, word for word, but the message still stands. I understand extraordinary care was taken in translating and copies passed down through the ages.

I have wondered if the translators and copyists were inspired or guided by the Holy Spirit.

I think it is not a coincidence the DSS (circa 2nd – 3rd century B.C.) was discovered when they were about 1946, if memory serves. Not that we needed them, but it verifies the accuracy and authenticity of our Bible of today. However, the DSS removed many italics and footnotes from the copied manuscripts.

[FriendofJonathan]

51 minutes ago, Alive said:

We have like at no other time, an embarrassment of riches that prove the authenticity of the scriptures as God intended us to have.

Amen. God's word endures forever. 

 

52 minutes ago, Alive said:

It’s inevitable for there to be some differences across manuscripts and honest translations.

Over zealous scribes, overworked and overtired scribes, scribes unfamiliar with the grammatical fonts used, slips of the quill, erasure, etc. 

55 minutes ago, Alive said:

I have not seen any that put the Truth of the Gospel at risk.

Notwithstanding all the scribal errors or textual intentionalalities, we can be confident with the thousands upon thousands of Greek NT manuscripts now available, that we have the very word of God that God promised to preserve. 

[missmuffet]

10 hours ago, FriendofJonathan said:

Is this more piling on the reformed guy, without looking at the actual text? 

Or please explain what you mean by your comment, and to whom you're alleging called someone an inappropriate name.

Thanks. 

I am saying that name calling is not something that God looks at kindly.

[Michael37]

@Dennis1209 I posted a good 8 minute video on this subject for you. (Not the first post)