BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[In1]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @In1.

Well, actually Paul said this:

1 Corinthians 2:6-12 (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (mature): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery (a secret), [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written,

"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (Isaiah 64:4).

10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD.

So, through the revelation of God, which He gives through His Spirit, we CAN know them, however our imagination is inferior to the reality God will bring.

 

No, ... again ALWAYS check the context!

Galatians 4:21-31 (KJV)

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one (Ishmael) by a bondmaid (Hagar, Genesis 16:1-16), the other (Isaac) by a freewoman (Sarah, Genesis 21:1-8). 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage (slavery), which is Agar. (Greek: Ἁγάρ = "Hagar," the rough breathing symbol in front of the Alpha gives the "h" sound) 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Now, it's important to understand the elevations in order to understand that the current Jerusalem IS higher than Mount Sinai: the elevation of Mount Sinai is 7,497 feet, while the elevation of Jerusalem is only 2,474 feet. HOWEVER, the BASE of Mount Sinai is at 5,090 feet! And, Jericho leading up to Jerusalem on the road that our Messiah took to Jerusalem is at -486 feet or 486 feet below sea level! So, the difference is the true height of each:

Mount Sinai: 7,497 - 5,090 = 2,407 feet

Jerusalem: 2,474 - (-486) = 2,960 feet!

The difference being 2960 - 2407 = 553 feet! So, going from the lowest elevation of the Jordan River end of the Dead Sea area to the highest elevation in the area makes the Jerusalem area of the Zion moutain range taller than Mount Sinai.

27 For it is written,

"Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband." (Isaiah 54:1)

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Therefore, this passage of Scripture is comparing old Jerusalem (particularly the Old City) to Mount Sinai, and is NOT talking about the New Jerusalem at all. 

 

As far as the "bottomless pit" is concerned, the Greek wording is found in Revelation 9:1-12 as "ὁ φρέαρ τῆς ἀβύσσου" or "ho frear tees abussou" or "the pit of-the no-bottom," which means "the pit with an unsounded bottom." It was simply too deep to measure. Some take this to mean that it was "in the center of the earth." I, too, believed that way once. However, that would be too great a distance, and it makes better sense to understand this to be a pocket in the earth's crust or just below from which these locusts were said to emerge once the key coordinates were cracked open by a falling meteorite.

The locusts that will emerge are probably an antediluvian species, trapped below the earth's layers of rock tossed during the Flood. Judging from the sound their wings make, they are probably as much bigger than modern locusts as griffinflies were larger than modern dragonflies.

It is into this pit that haSatan will be chained and thrown for a thousand years.

I was referring to Paul's " I knew a man", not things that should be for the most part on the obvious side.

Sarah like Eve, or like the woman at the well are pictures of something ... we are not born of Sarah but ... as Paul said ... born of Jerusalem above (not to be confused with a physical location).

The pit is the mouth of an immoral woman  ... 

[WilliamL]

On 5/8/2025 at 5:31 PM, Keras said:

On 5/8/2025 at 2:38 PM, WilliamL said:

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

This Prophecy refers to the glorious Return. Not the Sixth Seal event. 

Proved by how Jesus will come on the clouds of heaven... Matthew 24:30

Matthew 24:30 is the  time of the Parousia, as is so stated in 24:3, 27. That is the same and only Parousia also prophesied in 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4 (and elsewhere), being the resurrection and rapture. NOT the glorious return of Rev. 19.

On 5/8/2025 at 5:31 PM, Keras said:

On 5/8/2025 at 2:38 PM, WilliamL said:

One does not hid from a face that one has not at first seen!

Careful reading of Revelation 6:12-17, shows the peoples do not actually see the One who sits upon the Throne. 

The obvious reading says they are hiding from the Face.

On 5/8/2025 at 5:31 PM, Keras said:

How can that event be also the Return of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords,

It isn't; see my first response above.

On 5/8/2025 at 5:31 PM, Keras said:

Revelation 9:5 proves there is time that must pass between the Sixth seal and the 6th & 7th Bowls, which are Armageddon. 

Agreed.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, In1 said:

I was referring to Paul's " I knew a man", not things that should be for the most part on the obvious side.

The "man" he knew was probably himself, but whoever it was, it was "over 14 years ago" at the time he wrote 2 Corinthians 12:1-6

2 Corinthians 12:1-6 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (Greek: ἁρπαγέντα = "harpagenta" = "seized away") to the third heaven.

G726 ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):
—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

It's a verb as a second aorist, passive participle in the accusative case, speaking in the third-person of a singular, masculine subject. There is no "up" associated with the verb.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up (Greek: ἡρπάγη = "heerpagee" [second aorist passive indicative, 3rd-person masculine singular] = "he-was-seized") INTO PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but [now] I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or [that] he heareth of me.

We KNOW where "paradise" is because Yeeshuwa` in Revelation 2 tells us this info:

Revelation 2:1-7 (KJV)

1 "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

"'These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 "'"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 "'"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."'"

And, where do we read about the "tree of life?"

Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

So, the Paradise of God is within the New Jerusalem in the middle of its street where the "pure river of water of life" flows, and on either side of that river grows the "tree of life!" And, a "paradise" (or "paradeisos" in Greek or "pardeec" in Hebrew) is a "park of trees!"

1 hour ago, In1 said:

Sarah like Eve, or like the woman at the well are pictures of something ... we are not born of Sarah but ... as Paul said ... born of Jerusalem above (not to be confused with a physical location).

No. This is the kind of nonsense that is propagated by an allegorical approach to Scirpture. We've got something more REAL, more TANGIBLE, more LITERAL that is SO beautiful, that we don't NEED such nonsense! Shed it like a snakeskin; it's just "pictures" that are cartoons of the truth! GRASP THE TRUTH INSTEAD!

1 hour ago, In1 said:

The pit is the mouth of an immoral woman ... 

Really? That's not seen in Revelation.

[In1]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The "man" he knew was probably himself, but whoever it was, it was "over 14 years ago" at the time he wrote 2 Corinthians 12:1-6

2 Corinthians 12:1-6 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (Greek: ἁρπαγέντα = "harpagenta" = "seized away") to the third heaven.

G726 ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):
—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

It's a verb as a second aorist, passive participle in the accusative case, speaking in the third-person of a singular, masculine subject. There is no "up" associated with the verb.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up (Greek: ἡρπάγη = "heerpagee" [second aorist passive indicative, 3rd-person masculine singular] = "he-was-seized") INTO PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but [now] I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or [that] he heareth of me.

We KNOW where "paradise" is because Yeeshuwa` in Revelation 2 tells us this info:

Revelation 2:1-7 (KJV)

1 "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

"'These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 "'"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 "'"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."'"

And, where do we read about the "tree of life?"

Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

So, the Paradise of God is within the New Jerusalem in the middle of its street where the "pure river of water of life" flows, and on either side of that river grows the "tree of life!" And, a "paradise" (or "paradeisos" in Greek or "pardeec" in Hebrew) is a "park of trees!"

No. This is the kind of nonsense that is propagated by an allegorical approach to Scirpture. We've got something more REAL, more TANGIBLE, more LITERAL that is SO beautiful, that we don't NEED such nonsense! Shed it like a snakeskin; it's just "pictures" that are cartoons of the truth! GRASP THE TRUTH INSTEAD!

Really? That's not seen in Revelation.

The pit as you say is a cartoon ... that ties in with the feasts ... among others things ...

Edited May 14 by In1

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, In1 said:

The pit as you say is a cartoon ... that ties in with the feasts ... among others things ...

Shalom, @In1.

Not, the concept of the pit itself; it's the idea that the pit must be in the center of the earth that is bogus. The pit doesn't have to be where every direction is "up" (earth's center); it just has to be a pit that is so deep that it cannot be measured. That's all that the Greek word "abussos" means.

I should also add that it is NOT figurative of a woman's mouth!

 

 

Edited May 14 by Retrobyter
to add a thought

[In1]

5 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @In1.

Not, the concept of the pit itself; it's the idea that the pit must be in the center of the earth that is bogus. The pit doesn't have to be where every direction is "up" (earth's center); it just has to be a pit that is so deep that it cannot be measured. That's all that the Greek word "abussos" means.

 

To fall into a pit that has no bottom, is like ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth ... like trying to die but death fleeing from you ...

Edited May 14 by In1

[Keras]

The Great Promises of God to His People:

Ezekiel 28:24-26   The Lord God says: When I gather the House of Israel from the nations among whom they are now scattered and I have been reverenced by them, as the nations will see, then they will live in their heritage, all of the Holy Land that I promised to My servant Jacob.

They will have security there, building houses and planting vineyards, yes, they will dwell in confidence and safety, when I have executed My judgements upon all their contemptuous neighbours. They will no longer have to fear any threats from ungodly peoples around them and they will know that I am the Lord their God.    KJV, CJB, REB.

This short prophecy encapsulates the truth of what every righteous Christian can expect for their future. Sadly, not many can see this future, because of beliefs in false teachings and inability to discern the prophesies correctly.

We know from New Testament teaching that Christian peoples now belong to the House of Israel, whether they are true descendants of Jacob or not. But in order for God’s promises to the Patriarchs to be fulfilled, the majority, now ‘scattered among the nations’, WILL, in fact, be their descendants. Only God knows who they all are. Amos 9:9

All of the Lord’s righteous Christian peoples will be gathered soon after ‘a Day of cloud and darkness’, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Ezekiel 20:34-38.  That will be the many prophesied and well described - ‘Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath’, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster of fire from the sun, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7, that will destroy His enemies, Isaiah 66:15-16 and enable God’s plan for His people to ‘display His glory for all the nations to see’, Ezekiel 39:27, to be fulfilled. Proving that all this will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

The people of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, having passed through the ‘great ordeal’ of the Day of wrath, Luke 21:35, Revelation 7:1-14, will select their own leaders, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11, they will build a new Temple, Zechariah 6:15, Haggai 2:6-9, they will send out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus, and after all that is prophesied before the Return takes place, it is them who say: ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord’!

Ref: logostelos.info

 

 

[Retrobyter]

2 minutes ago, In1 said:

To fall into a pit that has no bottom, is like ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth ...

Shalom, again, @In1.

This is a problem that needs correcting: When one uses the words "like" or "as," one is making something to be an allegory. When this is the consistent way that one treats Scripture, he or she is using allegorical interpretation. It's not necessary.

First, it is not supported by the text of Scripture, and

Second, it takes one away from the MEAT of what the Scripture is actually saying.

Unless the author, whether human or divine, makes the statement, "this is an allegory for ...," one is PUTTING WORDS IN THE MOUTH OF THE AUTHOR!

One is doing what is called "eisegesis" - "READING INTO the Scriptures what one WANTS to see in those Scriptures.

One is more right to READ OUT FROM THE SCRIPTURES - "exegesis" - what the author or Author INTENDED to say!

As the saying goes, "God gave us two ears and one mouth; therefore, we should be LISTENING twice as much as we SPEAK!" That is ESPECIALLY important when reading the very Words of God, for that is when we are LISTENING to God's Words. Reading into the Scriptures what we want them to say is SPEAKING FOR God, as though we could instruct the God of the UNIVERSE!

And, the onus is even more important if one is trying to TEACH others! It's bad enough if we've mixed up our own minds, but it's compounded when we're spreading things that aren't true to others!

 

[In1]

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, @In1.

This is a problem that needs correcting: When one uses the words "like" or "as," one is making something to be an allegory. When this is the consistent way that one treats Scripture, he or she is using allegorical interpretation. It's not necessary.

First, it is not supported by the text of Scripture, and

Second, it takes one away from the MEAT of what the Scripture is actually saying.

Unless the author, whether human or divine, makes the statement, "this is an allegory for ...," one is PUTTING WORDS IN THE MOUTH OF THE AUTHOR!

One is doing what is called "eisegesis" - "READING INTO the Scriptures what one WANTS to see in those Scriptures.

One is more right to READ OUT FROM THE SCRIPTURES - "exegesis" - what the author or Author INTENDED to say!

As the saying goes, "God gave us two ears and one mouth; therefore, we should be LISTENING twice as much as we SPEAK!" That is ESPECIALLY important when reading the very Words of God, for that is when we are LISTENING to God's Words. Reading into the Scriptures what we want them to say is SPEAKING FOR God, as though we could instruct the God of the UNIVERSE!

And, the onus is even more important if one is trying to TEACH others! It's bad enough if we've mixed up our own minds, but it's compounded when we're spreading things that aren't true to others!

 

Perception is everything 

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, In1 said:

Perception is everything 

Shalom, @In1.

No, perception is SUBJECTIVE! REALITY is OBJECTIVE truth! Don't be "stuck in the Matrix!" "Take the red pill," and see the truth!

You also said,

22 hours ago, In1 said:

To fall into a pit that has no bottom, is like ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth ... like trying to die but death fleeing from you ...

"... is like ..." again leads to analogy - allegory - and is no longer talking about the reality but the perception! Talk about the PIT not some comparison to something else.

HaSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy") will LITERALLY be chained and thrown into a DEEP PIT for a THOUSAND years.

One should not be reading God's Word while attempting to find something else He meant by what He said! Instead, just take what He said at face value!