BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[The Light]

24 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Sbalom, @The Light.

You've got it backwards. Some of the Jews, who are the PHYSICAL descendants of Yhudah ("Judah"), one of the twelve tribes of Ya`aqoV/Yisraa'eel ("Jacob/Israel"), will be AMONG the 144,000 AND PART of the multitude that could not be numbered. The 144,000 are a special selection from all twelve tribes of Yisraa'eel who will be a CHOIR and its accompaniment for the Messiah when He returns. They are NOT from the Gentiles at all,

I don't believe I said that the 144,000 were Gentiles. They are 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel. So I don't have it backwards.

24 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

 

and the children of Israel are the "FIRST fold" in the "sheep analogy." The Gentile believers are the "OTHER fold." One must consider WHEN Yeeshuwa` said these words!

 

You are not correct. It is the Gentiles that currently see that Jesus is the Messiah. Those of the 12 tribes are blinded. That makes the Gentiles the first fold.

We have further proof that the 12 tribes are the second fold in Hosea 9

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of Israel were seen by God as the 1st fruits of the 1st harvest, but they served Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the first harvest. 

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in which is the first fold there are 144,000 first fruits of the second fold.

[Keras]

15 hours ago, The Light said:

I don't believe I said that the 144,000 were Gentiles. They are 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel

But surely, the 144k are not just Jews. Only 2/12ths in your scenario.

Isn't it obvious that the 144k are selected out of the Great multitude of Rev 7:9?  As Rev 14:1 says. 

Those 12 groups will be named after the sons of Jacob, according to their individual characteristics. They will go out to witness and proclaim the coming Kingdom. 

No one get raptured to heaven; ever. 

[WilliamL]

On 6/11/2025 at 3:08 PM, Retrobyter said:

On 6/10/2025 at 11:31 AM, WilliamL said:

כְּנַף is a noun here; this spelling is never a verb participle, as the KJV mistranslates it (“overspreading”). It has no prefix ה/the.

True. However, in English, the participle form, normally used as an adjective, can also be used as a gerund, which acts as a noun, such as "the coming of the Lord." In those cases when the gerund is being singled-out, a definite article is often added to show its nature as a gerund

"כְּנַף is a noun here; this spelling is never a verb participle." There is no "participle form" of this noun, so you seem to be missing the point. Or are making your own different point, which has no specific bearing on what I wrote.

On 6/11/2025 at 3:08 PM, Retrobyter said:

it's not a folded wing, but a "spread-out wing" in flight! That's when a "כְּנַף" is most noticeable. It is used in Daniel as an analogy for the "abominations from-desolation," the mem as a prefix for "min,"

Incorrect. The mem on " מְשֹׁמֵם/one who destroys/a destroyer" is part of the form of the active participle: it is NOT a prepositional prefix, as you claim. Check your grammar.

On 6/11/2025 at 3:08 PM, Retrobyter said:

I see Daniel 12:11 as an extension of Daniel 11:31, which was during the time of Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" in 167 B.C.E. In Daniel 11:31, Daniel is first informed of the coming the devastation that Antiochus causes when He raised the image of Zeus in the Temple and sacrificed the pig upon the altar. But, Daniel 12:11 is a REPEAT of this in shortened form, adding the lengths of time, almost as an afterthought before leaving Daniel.

Again, incorrect. Jesus quoted this very verse of Daniel 12:11 in Matt. 24:15 --

" Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” "

-- to be the event to signal the Great Tribulation. Daniel 12:11 is End Times, not historical. Also, the 1290 and 1335 days do not fit into the timetable of the Antiochus desecration.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, The Light said:

I don't believe I said that the 144,000 were Gentiles. They are 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel. So I don't have it backwards.

You are not correct. It is the Gentiles that currently see that Jesus is the Messiah. Those of the 12 tribes are blinded. That makes the Gentiles the first fold.

Shalom, @The Light.

Did you read what I quoted? When Yeeshuwa` HIMSELF said,

John 10:14-18 (KJV)

14 "I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of THIS FOLD: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") only had the children of Israel who were believers at this time to be a part of "THIS FOLD." That's to whom He said He was sent!

Don't make it a dichotomy, either. Just as there were more children of Israel, particularly Jews, at the time, not every Jew was a believer, just as later, not every Gentile would become a believer. The numbers within the various churches, would first be primarily consisting of Jews, even those in foreign cities, for Peter and Paul were sent "to the Jew FIRST and also to the Greek." As time passed, the numbers grew overall, but there were fewer Jews who became part of the churches and more of the Gentiles, until the Gentiles dominated the churches. And, by the late 3rd Century into the 4th, antiSemitism was on the rise WITHIN the churches, particularly the growing Roman Catholic body that was arising as the prominent Church, dominating over all the other churches. As one generation was dying off and another was gaining maturity, the mix was becoming more and more Gentile until the Jewish members were gone altogether within those who claimed to be members of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC)! Those churches who did not identify with the RCC and who still had Jewish members, were also hunted to extinction. While the Jewish population was not entirely gone, its numbers became extremely low, and their presence was extremely unpopular, even HATED!

AntiSemitism attempts to justify its hatred of the Jews by calling them the "Christ-killers," forgetting that He died for EVERYONE'S sins! Thus, we were ALL guilty of His death! It wasn't just the Romans who crucified Him, or the Jews who said, "Let His blood be upon us and upon our children," but we ALL were responsible for the death of the Messiah.

But, now, let's get right to the HEART of it: The Gentiles are NOT the ones who "currently see that Jesus is the Messiah." They see Him and call Him the "CHRIST," some even ignorantly thinking that "Christ" is His LAST NAME! Ask the laity - the common church-goers - what the word "Christ" means and see what kind of answers you get. I think you would be surprised by their answers, which won't be a single answer, either! Even those who are taught the response that "Christ" means the "Anointed One" won't know what that implies! Most have NO CLUE about the Davidic Covenant or what it means to be "the king of Israel." Even those who know this much have NO IDEA about the job description of a king! Because it has to do with the children of Israel, it's a FOREIGN CONCEPT to them!

17 hours ago, The Light said:

We have further proof that the 12 tribes are the second fold in Hosea 9

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of Israel were seen by God as the 1st fruits of the 1st harvest, but they served Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the first harvest. 

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in which is the first fold there are 144,000 first fruits of the second fold.

Don't foreget Yeeshuwa`s words above: "There shall be ONE FOLD, [and] one shepherd."

And, this was reflected in Paul's letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:11-19 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That AT THAT TIME ye were without (outside of) Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) ONE NEW MAN, [so] making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile BOTH unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you [Gentiles] which were afar off, and to them [the Circumcision] that were nigh. 18 For through him we BOTH have access by ONE Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS WITH THE SAINTS, and of the household of God;

In Christ, we are NO LONGER two groups, but ONE FOLD! We just have to increase the number of children of Israel within the fold. We are to be "Jews and Gentiles worshipping God TOGETHER!" This is what Messianic believers are trying to accomplish. Yeeshuwa` told the Jews who rejected Him,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the LORD' (Psalm 118:26)."

Psalm 118:21-27 (KJV)

21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. 23 This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes. 24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now (Hebrew: הוֹשִׁיעָה נָּא = "howshiy`aah naa' " = Greek: Ὡσαννὰ = "Hoosanna" = "Hosanna"), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed [be] he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. 27 God [is] the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, [even] unto the horns of the altar.

So, not only do they need to say "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD" before He returns, but they must do so from the Temple (the House of the LORD).

[Keras]

Understanding the Prophesies correctly, requires a knowledge of ALL the scriptures pertaining to the subject. I don't claim to know every nuance, but having written over 800 articles on the Prophetic Word, I can claim to understand the basic Plan of God for the end times. I can assert:

That the scriptures do not say the Church will be raptured to heaven,

Most Prophecy remains unfulfilled,

the House of Judah will not be forgiven and redeemed;

We are not in the Millennium now,

We are not yet in the new Covenant with God,

There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem,

There will again be offerings and sacrifices made in the Temple,

The Holy Land is our Christian heritage.

The dead have no consciousness,

The Anti-Christ will not be a Jew.

The glorious Return of Jesus will not be unexpected.,

The Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event and will commence all the end times.

Anyone who believes otherwise is deceived and has failed to comprehend the Truths of Bible Prophecy.

Edited Monday at 07:07 AM by Keras

[The Light]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") only had the children of Israel who were believers at this time to be a part of "THIS FOLD." That's to whom He said He was sent!

Yes Jesus ministry was to the Jews. Outside of the election they are blinded. They cannot be the first fold. The first fold is when He comes to take His bride to His fathers house. The Jews don't recognize Jesus as Messiah.

Matthew 23

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Don't make it a dichotomy, either. Just as there were more children of Israel, particularly Jews, at the time, not every Jew was a believer, just as later, not every Gentile would become a believer. The numbers within the various churches, would first be primarily consisting of Jews, even those in foreign cities, for Peter and Paul were sent "to the Jew FIRST and also to the Greek." As time passed, the numbers grew overall, but there were fewer Jews who became part of the churches and more of the Gentiles, until the Gentiles dominated the churches. 

That's because the Jews are currently blinded.

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

But, now, let's get right to the HEART of it: The Gentiles are NOT the ones who "currently see that Jesus is the Messiah." They see Him and call Him the "CHRIST," some even ignorantly thinking that "Christ" is His LAST NAME! Ask the laity - the common church-goers - what the word "Christ" means and see what kind of answers you get. I think you would be surprised by their answers, which won't be a single answer, either! Even those who are taught the response that "Christ" means the "Anointed One" won't know what that implies! Most have NO CLUE about the Davidic Covenant or what it means to be "the king of Israel." Even those who know this much have NO IDEA about the job description of a king! Because it has to do with the children of Israel, it's a FOREIGN CONCEPT to them!

That matter not. The importance is that Jesus is way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Him.

Part of Israel will have it's blindness removed, but only after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in........first fold.

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Don't foreget Yeeshuwa`s words above: "There shall be ONE FOLD, [and] one shepherd."

Of course there shall be one-fold. But that will not take place until both folds are joined into one-fold..........the Israel of God.

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

 

In Christ, we are NO LONGER two groups, but ONE FOLD!

There are two folds that are joined together into one fold.

The first fold is the Gentiles as they know him and He knows us. Then after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in there will be a second fold which are the 12 tribes across the earth that are gathered from the earth at the 6th seal.

Both folds are in heaven as the Great Multitude.

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

 

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the LORD' (Psalm 118:26)."

But they would not!

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alive]

This has about runs its course. When folks begin to insult others and question motives, threads are close or deleted. Eschatology is not a salvation issue.

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Keras said:

Understanding the Prophesies correctly, requires a knowledge of ALL the scriptures pertaining to the subject. I don't claim to know every nuance, but having written over 800 articles on the Prophetic Word, I can claim to understand the basic Plan of God for the end times. I can assert:

That the scriptures do not say the Church will be raptured to heaven,

Shalom, @Keras.

Correct.

5 hours ago, Keras said:

Most Prophecy remains unfulfilled,

Mostly correct; about half have already been fulfilled in the 1st Advent.

5 hours ago, Keras said:

the House of Judah will not be forgiven and redeemed;

Well, this is not correct; SOME of those from the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") will not be forgiven and redeemed; however, DAVID HIMSELF is from the tribe of Yhudah! He and many others of YEESHUWA`S OWN TRIBE will be within His Kingdom as His subjects.

5 hours ago, Keras said:

We are not in the Millennium now,

True.

5 hours ago, Keras said:

We are not yet in the new Covenant with God,

True.

5 hours ago, Keras said:

There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem,

There will again be offerings and sacrifices made in the Temple,

True.

5 hours ago, Keras said:

The Holy Land is our Christian heritage.

Not precisely. We will be going to the Holy Land initially; however, as we become kings under the King of kings, we will be made ruler of various regions, and live there. We will still be answerable to the Emperor, but we will have our own lands (possibly within our homelands) to rule. We will be going back to the Holy Land at least once a year for the Messiah's birthday.

5 hours ago, Keras said:

The dead have no consciousness,

True. I agree.

5 hours ago, Keras said:

The Anti-Christ will not be a Jew.

An "antichrist" is a person, Jew or Gentile, who is opposed to the Messiah of God, but there were MANY such persons in John's day (the First Century A.D.). There's also a "spirit of antichrist"; an attitude of being against the Messiah. Yochanan ("John") said,

1 John 2:18-23 (KJV)

18 Little children, it is the last time (Greek: ἐσχάτη ὥρα = "eschatee oora" = "a last hour"): and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come (Greek: ὁ ἀντίχριστος ἔρχεται = "ho antichristos erchetai" = "the one-against-Messiah shall-come"), even now are there many antichrists (Greek: ἀντίχριστοι πολλοὶ = "antichristoi polloi" = "ones-against-Messiah many"); whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

5 hours ago, Keras said:

The glorious Return of Jesus will not be unexpected.

The Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event and will commence all the end times.

Anyone who believes otherwise is deceived and has failed to comprehend the Truths of Bible Prophecy.

Well, His coming will be "telegraphed" by the celestial signs; however, He will be preceded by the opening of the Fifth Seal, which signifies the RESURRECTION and the collection of those who belong to Him. A "soul" is a created being who is BREATHING!

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar THE SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they CRIED with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

Yeeshuwa` said,

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

[Retrobyter]

44 minutes ago, Alive said:

This has about runs its course. When folks begin to insult others and question motives, threads are close or deleted. Eschatology is not a salvation issue.

Shalom, @Alive.

I don't know of anyone doing such things. It's not about WHO is saying something; it's about WHAT is being said. That's all. We're just discussing the timing of events.

I've noticed that dichotomistic thinking - black and white thinking - sometimes gets in one's way. When you have a container that is filling with water and oil, for instance, and the two spigots are opened at different speeds, even though one spigot has been opened earlier than the other, eventually, the one that is opened more will overwhelm the other. So, what started out as water, becomes mostly oil over time. Deaths also occur; so, we can think of them as drains to the tank containing the oil and water.

We've been discussing the two folds that shall be one fold, and we just have a difference of opinion regarding which was considered "first." We still need to discuss the way that the "blindness of the Jews" is lifted and when that will occur. Their blindness, as I see it, and I believe so would other Messianic Jewish believers, is that they are CURRENTLY having the veil removed, and that it won't happen suddenly when the Lord Yeeshuwa` returns, as if by magic.

In any case, I see much that could still be discussed, and we can argue our points without attacking the opposition. If need be, we can simply "agree to disagree." 

[Keras]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, His coming will be "telegraphed" by the celestial signs; however, He will be preceded by the opening of the Fifth Seal, which signifies the RESURRECTION and the collection of those who belong to Him. A "soul" is a created being who is BREATHING!

We agree on a lot of things, but not this idea. 

It is quite plain the Fifth Seal refers to all the Christian martyrs since Stephen. their souls kept under the Altar in heaven, are not conscious or breathing. God does allow them to cry out at times, or as I believe; their crying out is just allegorical, a Spiritual manifestation. 

Jesus does not Return until the Seventh Bowl. The 'coming ' of His Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, is what will happen soon to commence all the end times things.