what if falling church numbers is a good thing?

[Ghostdog]

i was thinking about this and i thought what if God is refining the church? getting rid of the ones who are lukewarm and showing who is a ride or die christian. what if when we thought high church numbers were a good thing  wasnt what God wanted?

Edited June 15 by Ghostdog
typo in title

[timf]

One might usually consider a refining process as remaining faithful in difficulty. One might see current losses as due more to seduction. One conservative Lutheran pastor told me that they "lost" 80% of their youth. Many churches try to stem this loss by conforming to the world. This might be more the effect of the "god" of this world that the true God allows to work his evil deeds.

Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Here is a link to some thoughts as to how Satan has worked throughout history.

PDF  https://christianpioneer.com/videos/ebooks/Satanic_history_of_the_world_v1.pdf

Web pages  https://christianpioneer.com/cphone ebooks/shotw/shotw main.htm

[tatwo]

"what if falling church numbers is a good thing?"

Well that is a matter of perspective...@Ghostdog...most won't even realize it and few actually care, for reasons they believe are just. Some do it to escape the pure foolery that their church has become as it tries to attain relevance in their culture. Other's...those who are looking for the "Body of Christ" and they will find it...they must leave...they are being "called out."

A large portion of "Christianity" as a whole...referencing the entire "denominational empire"...sees this as something that happens to "the others"...the heretics, rebellious, unbelieving...largely after "they" are "gone?" Perhaps an accurate definition of "church" may be in order here?

On top of that...Paul made it prophetically clear that some element of this "must" happen...so it will happen...and it is happening and will continue yet for a while. I am referencing the "falling away"...the "departure." For some...it will be like the Jews who departed from the law and Moses...which had become "anáthema"...and came to Yahshua Christ.

"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"  2nd Thessalonians 2:1-5 NASB

This could be an eye opening discussion?

Tatwo...:)

[Orion]

Not all who leave a "church" have left the "church".   

Many view "church" as a building and the pastor that preaches sermons in it.  Others view "church" as corporate entity with a headquarters and satellite offices, with by-laws and standing orders, rules and regulations for members only, etc.  Neither of the foregoing is the church, the ekklessia, the body of believers called out from the world into the body of Christ. 

Many so-called "churches" have become cults, and many more are cult-like, hanging onto the teachings of so-called "pastors" that don't teach the pure word of the Bible, but teach and preach to the current culture and teach and preach so as not to violate the 501(c)(3) tax exempt status they hold so near and dear to their hearts.  

No one that is part of the body of Christ, the true ekklesia, has left the body of Christ, because all that are in the body of Christ are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and no one can pluck them out of God's hand. They may have left a 501(c)(3) entity that pretends to be representing God and pretends to be teaching and preaching God's word, but they have not left the ekklesia body of Christ. 

Peace

 

[luigi]

6 hours ago, Ghostdog said:

i was thinking about this and i thought what if God is refining the church? getting rid of the ones who are lukewarm and showing who is a ride or die christian. what if when we thought high church numbers were a good thing  wasnt what God wanted?

Phonies who feign faith in loving their neighbor infiltrated the truly faithful in Christs Way from the beginning. These masses of phonies remain today. These individuals true faith, opposite to that of Christ (antichrist), will soon manifest, as this outcome is what the Lord intends when He shakes both heaven and earth, as described in Hebrews 12:26, which will result in the phonies being shaken out on earth, so that the truly faithful remain (Hebrews 12:27). This shaking out of the phonies occurs during the great tribulation, which is also described in the Olivet discourse (Mark 13; Matthew 24, and Luke 21). Many offended Judas' then (Matthew 24:10).

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

[walla299]

12 hours ago, Ghostdog said:

i was thinking about this and i thought what if God is refining the church? getting rid of the ones who are lukewarm and showing who is a ride or die christian. what if when we thought high church numbers were a good thing  wasn't what God wanted?

There is a sifting or sorting process the Lord uses to refine his bride and people leaving a local body is probably one of them. Some of this can be seen in the Parable of the Sower, and we can see it in 1 John 2:18-19 (ESV): (Paragraph for context.)

Quote

18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.[fn] 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us[fn]—eternal life. 26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

A true believer is not going to leave the body forever as can be seen with some today. They may move from one local body to another or even live in rebellion for awhile but at some point the Lord calls them back. Those who leave and never return to fellowship anywhere, have no evidence of chastisement in their lives, appear to live in and love their sin, etc. Were probably not really saved to begin with based on the "fruit" of their lives. Only the Lord can see a person's heart - but the fruit is easy enough for us to see, as Jesus said.

 

[Marathoner]

Church attendance is not an indicator of fruit. I understand that church attendance matters where religion is concerned, but the Body of Christ is found everywhere in the world. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit, not a structure built by men; the Lord does not dwell in structures made by man nor is He served by human hands (Acts 17:25). 

[tatwo]

8 hours ago, Marathoner said:

Church attendance is not an indicator of fruit. I understand that church attendance matters where religion is concerned, but the Body of Christ is found everywhere in the world. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit, not a structure built by men; the Lord does not dwell in structures made by man nor is He served by human hands (Acts 17:25). 

Bro...you could put together a fantastic "forum and OP" on this subject...I know it!

May God's favor continue to strengthen you Marathoner...you are an inspiration!

Tatwo...:)

 

[TheBlade]

First "what if" is  doubting..  get rid of lukewarm? His Chruch is always growing.. anything everything God does.. grows always. If ever we fail to see that or start to doubt.. 12 men and some women and then 120, 3000 and today. One group.. just one ministry in 2024 seen 30 million come to Christ just one ministry. That branch that seems to have less fruit or none.. what they have always done for thousands of years is put push it up so it gets more light. As for lukewarm no where does it say they are not saved they are lost nor says He has spit them out. About to. Not sure why we tend go to the negative allot of the times... man I have.  That Church I think they listen and repented as He told them to.  Chruch.. we still look at some building and the world will look at the numbers but with GOD that's not the Church. I'm seeing that Church grow bigger then every before. I mean so many young people.. what do we focusing on?
 

Ever try to talk to Him with doubt? Its faith with Him the only way to please Him. He calls those things that be not as though they were. We really need to start after 2000 years now is talk like Him. What is faith? Not what you see or feel. We walk by faith "For we walk by faith, not by sight" we live by faith "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.".  We live by the spirit and walk in the spirit "Since we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit"

To think the great tribulation.. no matter how you look at that its after.. its all the people from just the great tribulation which will be worse then this world has ever seen yet the number of them no one could number.. they came out of the great tribulation 

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,"

“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.' man I don't care.. shouting TIME.. I am all in.. shouting.. great is the LAMB! 

[AnOrangeCat]

On 6/15/2025 at 12:08 AM, Ghostdog said:

i was thinking about this and i thought what if God is refining the church? getting rid of the ones who are lukewarm and showing who is a ride or die christian. what if when we thought high church numbers were a good thing  wasnt what God wanted?

High church numbers means just that: a lot of people walking into a particular building and affiliating it. In and of itself it says nothing about whether or not they really believe. My personal feeling based on what I've seen and experienced in my own area and seen of how the church interacts with politics is that for a good long while America has been Christian on a cultural level. I'm not going to go so far as to say that I know what God wants or wanted out of various eras, but there's definitely been pros and cons. The cultural embrace has certainly enabled a lot of people to hear the message and eventually accept it. There's been some other perks. I don't doubt that God has a plan behind current events as well.