Calvin vs. Arminius

[AnnaMoodley]

Uhm do Calvins Believe in predestination?

[~candice~]

Uhm do Calvins Believe in predestination?

Not only do they believe in predestination, they were predestined to believe in predestination!

[EricH]

IMO Calvinism is Fatalistic and this is one of the false gods spoken of in Isaiah 65:11, Gad = luck and Meni = fate.

You reasoning is faulty here, since the doctrine of predestination is based on God's soveriegnty and His eternal purposes. Not on fate or luck

[kross]

Hi Kross, i respect your position and the grace shown me in your reply.

But i have to say that is your take on the scriptures, we all can provide scriptures saying this proves this or that, but truth does not bypass sound reasoning or else we could not know right from wrong.

You have not addressed my second line which i use to prove my point, if you can soundly refute what i have stated i will be convinced by you.

please dont ask for scriptures untill you have disproven the reasoning first, as i have in past posts provided scriptures but the response is always the same, which comes down to both saying the others interpretation is wrong, therefore back to square one.

I only provide the scriptures in the hope that people will take them and study them in context. I am not one who generally asks for scripture. Ultimately, it is the reaching of the logical part of the mind that is required. To that end;

as far as your second line.

No man seeks after GOD.Not one. YOur reasoning is that if GOD seeks after someone, HE can fail to save them.

The reality is, there is not one person who's deeds are not dark, who will come to the light. GOD doesn't have to do anything in order for a person to not get saved.It is the nature of men, whose bent is to sin and to hate GOD, to not respond to the message of salvation. As scripture clearly teaches, the ground first has to be prepared to recieve the seed. The very first action of salvation is conviction of the need for GOD. That is a work of the HOLY SPIRIT. If the HOLY SPIRIT doesn't convict, people do not get saved.

The point is, it is the natural condition of man to make the choices that result in eternal damnation. It is totally unnatural, or against nature, that a man responds to the gospel at all. It is a supernatural act of a power outside of ourselves that results in a change in our nature so that we will respond to the salvation message.

You state that you can not accept that there are sinners who can not be saved, who can not make a choice. It is against the very nature of a man to make the choice. It is not a surprise that men cannot choose JESUS, it is an absolute amazing act of grace and love that any do choose HIM.

I do not think the kind of love that determines to save some, rather than let them all be lost, can be called tyranny. The judgement of every man who is lost will be just and true. The salvation of everyman who is saved will be solely and completely to the glory of HIM who saved them, apart from any boasting on their part.

I hope that helps answer your second line. I know it is a quick and short statement, and it may or may not make sense to you still.

For hundreds of years this debate has raged. We may not come to agreement, but we can agree that salvation is a great gift.

HIS peace and love to you and yours.

[pokemaughan]

Uhm do Calvins Believe in predestination?

Not only do they believe in predestination, they were predestined to believe in predestination!

Hah

I don't how you couldn't believe in predestination... Paul writes about it in Romans...

I would be more inclined to call Calvinism "Biblical Christianity".

Did you know Paul was a Calvinist?

[Rhonda Lou]

IMO Calvinism is Fatalistic and this is one of the false gods spoken of in Isaiah 65:11, Gad = luck and Meni = fate.

To say a sinner is unable to repent but God will send them to eternal torment for not being chosen is the same as accusing God of infinite tyranny.

Sinners are able to repent, but they rebelliously choose not to despite the Holy Spirit influence. Those that do repent are those who aided by the Holy Spirits change their supreme preference of serving themselves to that of serving God. This is true salvation and a mental accent to Gods sovereignty while persisting in rebellion is not.

With all due respect, a belief in predestination is not fatalistic. We do not know who is chosen and who is not chosen, so my default when I see a person is to believe that the person might be among the chosen -- even if every indication for the present is the opposite of that. Paul persecuted the church. We are all dead in our sins before salvation. Nobody seeks God, and all run away from him, so is it any wonder that any person I see who disavows God is running away from Him? Yet every single person God saves began by running away from Him, so there is always hope.

Secondly, I do agree that everybody pits one Scritpure against another when it comes to this issue, and most of this is done on the basis of emotion. Unfortunately, the sad truth for human reason is that all Scriptures on both sides are in the Bible. God DOES predetermine: "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Exodus 33:19b, Romans 9:15-24) and "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God to those who believed in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [/b](John 1:12-13)

However, did you notice that even though salvation is clearly stated as NOT being the will of man but ONLY the "WILL OF GOD" also stated just prior to that is to those "as RECEIVED HIM" -- those who "BELIEVED IN HIS NAME." In the middle of the greatest defense of predestination in the New Testament (Romans 8:29-30; and capters 911), we find this: "But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,' that is, the word of faith which we preach), that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:8-9; 17)

This means there is free will.

Much has been made about logic vs. Scriptures. People who see both state that the Scriptures mean that God simply knew who was saved, making free will the predominate factor. I disagree with this assessment because the word "foreknowledge" in the Bible means "foreordained" The same Greek word is used in 1 Peter 1:2: "elect by the foreknowledge of God" that is used in 1 Peter 1:20: "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world." That is the same Greek word used in Romans 8:29: "For those He foreknew, these He also predestined". As the verses I quoted above from Exodus 33:19b and John 1:12-13 indicate, God chooses, we don't. But John 1:12 and $omans 10:8-9, clearly state that free will is involved, not in determining who will be saved, but in making the salvation official from our viewpoint -- as the final step of salvation. That's how I see it. Scripturally, when faced with the dilemma and ramifications of predestination, we are told: "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will he thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like you?" (Romans 9:20)

I've heard many say here that Scripture is all wel and good, but human reason is more important, which is the reason for this thread. God basically says, "I am who I am, my thoughts are higher than you thoughts..." (Exodus 3:14; Isaiah 55:8-9) So, if it is greater than we can comprehend (like how the Trinity works or how Jesus can be both God and man), but God, who never lies, is the one who says it, should we not just believe that both predestination and free will are there? Does faith not include trusting God even if we don't understand it? If we did understand it, would it require much faith?

Those who believe that the idea of predestination leaves God being tyrannical should remember that Scripture also says that God is love (1 John 4:7-8) and that everything He does is for our good (Romans 8:28).

I'm sorry, I just feel a need to defend God's word since I've heard people downplay God's actual word in favor of human reason. God's word goes by God's reason, not human reason, and since He knows everything and we don't -- but He wants only our good -- I'm just going to trust Him on this one.

Rhonda

[kross]

IMO Calvinism is Fatalistic and this is one of the false gods spoken of in Isaiah 65:11, Gad = luck and Meni = fate.

To say a sinner is unable to repent but God will send them to eternal torment for not being chosen is the same as accusing God of infinite tyranny.

Sinners are able to repent, but they rebelliously choose not to despite the Holy Spirit influence. Those that do repent are those who aided by the Holy Spirits change their supreme preference of serving themselves to that of serving God. This is true salvation and a mental accent to Gods sovereignty while persisting in rebellion is not.

With all due respect, a belief in predestination is not fatalistic. We do not know who is chosen and who is not chosen, so my default when I see a person is to believe that the person might be among the chosen -- even if every indication for the present is the opposite of that. Paul persecuted the church. We are all dead in our sins before salvation. Nobody seeks God, and all run away from him, so is it any wonder that any person I see who disavows God is running away from Him? Yet every single person God saves began by running away from Him, so there is always hope.

Secondly, I do agree that everybody pits one Scritpure against another when it comes to this issue, and most of this is done on the basis of emotion. Unfortunately, the sad truth for human reason is that all Scriptures on both sides are in the Bible. God DOES predetermine: "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Exodus 33:19b, Romans 9:15-24) and "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God to those who believed in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [/b](John 1:12-13)

However, did you notice that even though salvation is clearly stated as NOT being the will of man but ONLY the "WILL OF GOD" also stated just prior to that is to those "as RECEIVED HIM" -- those who "BELIEVED IN HIS NAME." In the middle of the greatest defense of predestination in the New Testament (Romans 8:29-30; and capters 911), we find this: "But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,' that is, the word of faith which we preach), that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:8-9; 17)

This means there is free will.

Much has been made about logic vs. Scriptures. People who see both state that the Scriptures mean that God simply knew who was saved, making free will the predominate factor. I disagree with this assessment because the word "foreknowledge" in the Bible means "foreordained" The same Greek word is used in 1 Peter 1:2: "elect by the foreknowledge of God" that is used in 1 Peter 1:20: "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world." That is the same Greek word used in Romans 8:29: "For those He foreknew, these He also predestined". As the verses I quoted above from Exodus 33:19b and John 1:12-13 indicate, God chooses, we don't. But John 1:12 and $omans 10:8-9, clearly state that free will is involved, not in determining who will be saved, but in making the salvation official from our viewpoint -- as the final step of salvation. That's how I see it. Scripturally, when faced with the dilemma and ramifications of predestination, we are told: "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will he thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like you?" (Romans 9:20)

I've heard many say here that Scripture is all wel and good, but human reason is more important, which is the reason for this thread. God basically says, "I am who I am, my thoughts are higher than you thoughts..." (Exodus 3:14; Isaiah 55:8-9) So, if it is greater than we can comprehend (like how the Trinity works or how Jesus can be both God and man), but God, who never lies, is the one who says it, should we not just believe that both predestination and free will are there? Does faith not include trusting God even if we don't understand it? If we did understand it, would it require much faith?

Those who believe that the idea of predestination leaves God being tyrannical should remember that Scripture also says that God is love (1 John 4:7-8) and that everything He does is for our good (Romans 8:28).

I'm sorry, I just feel a need to defend God's word since I've heard people downplay God's actual word in favor of human reason. God's word goes by God's reason, not human reason, and since He knows everything and we don't -- but He wants only our good -- I'm just going to trust Him on this one.

Rhonda

I would agree with what you have ststed if you had written that clearly "the will is involved" instead of "free will is involved" The one aspect of it all is whether the will is truely free, and when is the will truely free.

If "faith comes by hearing" as the scripture you quoted states, and faith is a gift from GOD, then a response to faith is only a natural reaction to having been given the gift. In that sense, it is a "free will" reponse. But, it is a free will respones that is in line with GOD's soveriegn will towards that person in giving that person the gift of faith by which he can cry out Abba Father.

I am glad I read your statement and that I just wrote this. I think I have just acquired a more clear understanding.

HIS grace and peace to you

[Rhonda Lou]

IMO Calvinism is Fatalistic and this is one of the false gods spoken of in Isaiah 65:11, Gad = luck and Meni = fate.

To say a sinner is unable to repent but God will send them to eternal torment for not being chosen is the same as accusing God of infinite tyranny.

Sinners are able to repent, but they rebelliously choose not to despite the Holy Spirit influence. Those that do repent are those who aided by the Holy Spirits change their supreme preference of serving themselves to that of serving God. This is true salvation and a mental accent to Gods sovereignty while persisting in rebellion is not.

With all due respect, a belief in predestination is not fatalistic. We do not know who is chosen and who is not chosen, so my default when I see a person is to believe that the person might be among the chosen -- even if every indication for the present is the opposite of that. Paul persecuted the church. We are all dead in our sins before salvation. Nobody seeks God, and all run away from him, so is it any wonder that any person I see who disavows God is running away from Him? Yet every single person God saves began by running away from Him, so there is always hope.

Secondly, I do agree that everybody pits one Scritpure against another when it comes to this issue, and most of this is done on the basis of emotion. Unfortunately, the sad truth for human reason is that all Scriptures on both sides are in the Bible. God DOES predetermine: "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Exodus 33:19b, Romans 9:15-24) and "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God to those who believed in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [/b](John 1:12-13)

However, did you notice that even though salvation is clearly stated as NOT being the will of man but ONLY the "WILL OF GOD" also stated just prior to that is to those "as RECEIVED HIM" -- those who "BELIEVED IN HIS NAME." In the middle of the greatest defense of predestination in the New Testament (Romans 8:29-30; and capters 911), we find this: "But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,' that is, the word of faith which we preach), that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:8-9; 17)

This means there is free will.

Much has been made about logic vs. Scriptures. People who see both state that the Scriptures mean that God simply knew who was saved, making free will the predominate factor. I disagree with this assessment because the word "foreknowledge" in the Bible means "foreordained" The same Greek word is used in 1 Peter 1:2: "elect by the foreknowledge of God" that is used in 1 Peter 1:20: "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world." That is the same Greek word used in Romans 8:29: "For those He foreknew, these He also predestined". As the verses I quoted above from Exodus 33:19b and John 1:12-13 indicate, God chooses, we don't. But John 1:12 and $omans 10:8-9, clearly state that free will is involved, not in determining who will be saved, but in making the salvation official from our viewpoint -- as the final step of salvation. That's how I see it. Scripturally, when faced with the dilemma and ramifications of predestination, we are told: "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will he thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like you?" (Romans 9:20)

I've heard many say here that Scripture is all wel and good, but human reason is more important, which is the reason for this thread. God basically says, "I am who I am, my thoughts are higher than you thoughts..." (Exodus 3:14; Isaiah 55:8-9) So, if it is greater than we can comprehend (like how the Trinity works or how Jesus can be both God and man), but God, who never lies, is the one who says it, should we not just believe that both predestination and free will are there? Does faith not include trusting God even if we don't understand it? If we did understand it, would it require much faith?

Those who believe that the idea of predestination leaves God being tyrannical should remember that Scripture also says that God is love (1 John 4:7-8) and that everything He does is for our good (Romans 8:28).

I'm sorry, I just feel a need to defend God's word since I've heard people downplay God's actual word in favor of human reason. God's word goes by God's reason, not human reason, and since He knows everything and we don't -- but He wants only our good -- I'm just going to trust Him on this one.

Rhonda

I would agree with what you have ststed if you had written that clearly "the will is involved" instead of "free will is involved" The one aspect of it all is whether the will is truely free, and when is the will truely free.

If "faith comes by hearing" as the scripture you quoted states, and faith is a gift from GOD, then a response to faith is only a natural reaction to having been given the gift. In that sense, it is a "free will" reponse. But, it is a free will respones that is in line with GOD's soveriegn will towards that person in giving that person the gift of faith by which he can cry out Abba Father.

I am glad I read your statement and that I just wrote this. I think I have just acquired a more clear understanding.

HIS grace and peace to you

Kross, I'm nearly out of time, but I would like to answer your question with a very short answer, and get back to it later (I'm incapable of REALLY short!!). Let me put it this way. I agree that before God draws us we have NO free will in the matter of salvation. Our natural state is to deny God, run away from God, be dead in our sins -- and dead people need life. Where "free" will enters in is AFTER God begins to draw us -- after we have some knowledge of Him, and the Holy Spirit gives us a rudimentary understanding which He builds on. Adam and Eve had SEEN God before being told not to eat of the tree of good and evil (which gave them a choice.) The Israelites SAW God before He told them to choose life or death. People SAW Jesus before told to believe in Him. Believers have a choice between their new creation and the old flesh container -- but they have SEEN God. Before anybody is drawn to Chrost, there is no choice or "free will". After being drawn, there is, so I DO agree with you. The balance is that God DOES eventually give us a choice, though we are born OF God and OF HIS will. In my own mind, I separate that between heaven's perspective and our human perspective, but that's in MY mind, not in the word of God. The predestination is real, but the choice (like you I HATE the word "free" will, but it is the one everybody understands) is also real -- it's just not first. I hope that clears it up. If not, ask away, and I will try to explain it better, or at least more scripturally -- Scriptures mean a LOT to me!!

Thanks for your kind words.

Rhonda

[kross]

IMO Calvinism is Fatalistic and this is one of the false gods spoken of in Isaiah 65:11, Gad = luck and Meni = fate.

To say a sinner is unable to repent but God will send them to eternal torment for not being chosen is the same as accusing God of infinite tyranny.

Sinners are able to repent, but they rebelliously choose not to despite the Holy Spirit influence. Those that do repent are those who aided by the Holy Spirits change their supreme preference of serving themselves to that of serving God. This is true salvation and a mental accent to Gods sovereignty while persisting in rebellion is not.

With all due respect, a belief in predestination is not fatalistic. We do not know who is chosen and who is not chosen, so my default when I see a person is to believe that the person might be among the chosen -- even if every indication for the present is the opposite of that. Paul persecuted the church. We are all dead in our sins before salvation. Nobody seeks God, and all run away from him, so is it any wonder that any person I see who disavows God is running away from Him? Yet every single person God saves began by running away from Him, so there is always hope.

Secondly, I do agree that everybody pits one Scritpure against another when it comes to this issue, and most of this is done on the basis of emotion. Unfortunately, the sad truth for human reason is that all Scriptures on both sides are in the Bible. God DOES predetermine: "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Exodus 33:19b, Romans 9:15-24) and "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God to those who believed in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [/b](John 1:12-13)

However, did you notice that even though salvation is clearly stated as NOT being the will of man but ONLY the "WILL OF GOD" also stated just prior to that is to those "as RECEIVED HIM" -- those who "BELIEVED IN HIS NAME." In the middle of the greatest defense of predestination in the New Testament (Romans 8:29-30; and capters 911), we find this: "But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,' that is, the word of faith which we preach), that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:8-9; 17)

This means there is free will.

Much has been made about logic vs. Scriptures. People who see both state that the Scriptures mean that God simply knew who was saved, making free will the predominate factor. I disagree with this assessment because the word "foreknowledge" in the Bible means "foreordained" The same Greek word is used in 1 Peter 1:2: "elect by the foreknowledge of God" that is used in 1 Peter 1:20: "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world." That is the same Greek word used in Romans 8:29: "For those He foreknew, these He also predestined". As the verses I quoted above from Exodus 33:19b and John 1:12-13 indicate, God chooses, we don't. But John 1:12 and $omans 10:8-9, clearly state that free will is involved, not in determining who will be saved, but in making the salvation official from our viewpoint -- as the final step of salvation. That's how I see it. Scripturally, when faced with the dilemma and ramifications of predestination, we are told: "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will he thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like you?" (Romans 9:20)

I've heard many say here that Scripture is all wel and good, but human reason is more important, which is the reason for this thread. God basically says, "I am who I am, my thoughts are higher than you thoughts..." (Exodus 3:14; Isaiah 55:8-9) So, if it is greater than we can comprehend (like how the Trinity works or how Jesus can be both God and man), but God, who never lies, is the one who says it, should we not just believe that both predestination and free will are there? Does faith not include trusting God even if we don't understand it? If we did understand it, would it require much faith?

Those who believe that the idea of predestination leaves God being tyrannical should remember that Scripture also says that God is love (1 John 4:7-8) and that everything He does is for our good (Romans 8:28).

I'm sorry, I just feel a need to defend God's word since I've heard people downplay God's actual word in favor of human reason. God's word goes by God's reason, not human reason, and since He knows everything and we don't -- but He wants only our good -- I'm just going to trust Him on this one.

Rhonda

I would agree with what you have ststed if you had written that clearly "the will is involved" instead of "free will is involved" The one aspect of it all is whether the will is truely free, and when is the will truely free.

If "faith comes by hearing" as the scripture you quoted states, and faith is a gift from GOD, then a response to faith is only a natural reaction to having been given the gift. In that sense, it is a "free will" reponse. But, it is a free will respones that is in line with GOD's soveriegn will towards that person in giving that person the gift of faith by which he can cry out Abba Father.

I am glad I read your statement and that I just wrote this. I think I have just acquired a more clear understanding.

HIS grace and peace to you

Kross, I'm nearly out of time, but I would like to answer your question with a very short answer, and get back to it later (I'm incapable of REALLY short!!). Let me put it this way. I agree that before God draws us we have NO free will in the matter of salvation. Our natural state is to deny God, run away from God, be dead in our sins -- and dead people need life. Where "free" will enters in is AFTER God begins to draw us -- after we have some knowledge of Him, and the Holy Spirit gives us a rudimentary understanding which He builds on. Adam and Eve had SEEN God before being told not to eat of the tree of good and evil (which gave them a choice.) The Israelites SAW God before He told them to choose life or death. People SAW Jesus before told to believe in Him. Believers have a choice between their new creation and the old flesh container -- but they have SEEN God. Before anybody is drawn to Chrost, there is no choice or "free will". After being drawn, there is, so I DO agree with you. The balance is that God DOES eventually give us a choice, though we are born OF God and OF HIS will. In my own mind, I separate that between heaven's perspective and our human perspective, but that's in MY mind, not in the word of God. The predestination is real, but the choice (like you I HATE the word "free" will, but it is the one everybody understands) is also real -- it's just not first. I hope that clears it up. If not, ask away, and I will try to explain it better, or at least more scripturally -- Scriptures mean a LOT to me!!

Thanks for your kind words.

Rhonda

I do not think I have any real question to what you have said. But...

Do you believe that once GOD chooses to draw a person to JESUS that this person will have resistance to that draw? In other words, when one of GOD's chosen is touched by the HOLY SPIRIT and given the gift of faith, is it possible for that person to not get saved as a result of a choice of their will?

I believe that the nature of a person touched by GOD is changed. The new nature of that person is to be drawn to GOD. Nothing acts against it's own nature unless acted upon by an outside force. Since GOD is the strongest outside force, HIS soveriegn act of changing the nature of a person will be the ultimate determinating factor in the salvation of that person.

An act of the will is necessary, but the will is soveriegnly changed by the touch of love and the revelation of the true nature of GOD as love to those whom HE has predestinated to feel that touch.

WOuld you say we are on the same page here?

HIS peace

[JCISGD]

Kross i do believe that no man repents without the aid of the Holy Spirit, but you havnt answered the question. "If man is unable to repent as Calvinism states then God is not just to require it."

We do not have to fear a lightening bolt for refuting wrong beliefs that accuse God of tyranny. God is totally just but not because He says so.

The gospel is perfectly suited to mans needs and does not abuse our faculties of reason when veiwed correctly.

Hi Pokemaughan/Rhond Lou, I totally believe in predestination as it is taught in scripture but i disagree with the Calvinist

understanding which is IMO equal to fatalism.

Rhonda its not scripture vs reason, its scripture correctly understood does not violate correct reasoning, scripture= correct reasoning. "All truth is true to scripture, true to life and true to correct reasoning". Charles Finney

Man has all he needs to repent and obey God as God has already made available the influence of the Holy Spirit, but man is unwilling to repent and free will allows him to reject the truth and influence of the Holy Spirit.

The fall did not alter mans ability to choose God, and man does not need any new faculties. God only applies moral influence and no physical changes are needed. A father does not get heart obedience by altering his childrens physical makeup, but by influencing them through verbal and where necessary physical persuassion.

I have no personal malice towards Calvinist but IMO Calvinism is a great stumbling block to revival and needs refuting where possible.