Seeking a Better Understanding

[traveller]

Here's my 2 cents worth:

In Colossians, Paul was addressing a church that he didn't found, and had never been there. This church was apparently being infiltrated by false teachings. Paul was instructing them that because of these false teaching, they were losing their identities with Christ. They were risking losing their power in Christ. Paul says, Col 2: 8, See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philospphy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

Apparently these false teachers were bringing in rituals and man made traditions, which included holidays and feasts and worshipping or studying the stars as such. Paul was telling them that when we accept Christ we are made new and (verse 13b)"God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us. he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And haveing disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them,. triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore, do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon celevration or a Sabbath day. "

Along with the false teachers, the jewish Christians were trying to convince the Colossians to follow the jewish customs. Paul was trying to tell them that Christ is IN us, and it is by HIM that we are guided, and to Him that we answer. With the Colossians, Paul was trying to teach them to get back to their spiritual roots and get out of the worlds desires and teachings.

OK - Now Romans. I think a very key verse is here in Romans 14: 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.

Or we could say, Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of wearing dresses instead of pants. Or celebrating a holiday. Or anyother custom. That's what we're discussing here: customs.

I think it's simply saying, love your brother. If he eats bugs and you don't, love him anyway. If eating burgers offends him and he's coming to your house, then don't serve them. But continue to serve the Lord and love your brother.

It is Paul's teachings that customs no longer matter because we are crucified with Christ and all our earthly "doings" are dead to us. We live in Christ. Our life is now not of this earth, so it does not matter what we eat. Yet, we still live here and still live with those that are at different steps in their spiritual walk.

OK - that's my understanding. I hope I didn't muddy the waters any.

[WayneB]

Awesome discussion folks...and a lot of keen insight. I'll add another Scripture for your consideration.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars , whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

Sounds like we should worry less about what we eat and drink and more on placing our hope in the living God! IF we are faithful...if we really have placed our hope in Him, we will be obedient to His will. It ain't about what we wear or what we eat or what we drink. It's about hearing His voice and responding to Him.

Regardless, I trust the Lord knows my future better than I do. He may convict me of a habit that would lead me to destruction whereby it may have no impact on another. Drinking alcohol is a good example...some can and some can't.

Lastly, key verse...if we are THANKFUL, then it is good but if in our heart we are unable to receive it with thanksgiving, then it may not be for us.

Does any of that make sense?

Bless you,

Wayne

[Adstar]

Hello Catz :il:

I think you need to read through Romans 14 to get the context of the Message Paul was giving.

Romans 14

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.

Here Paul establishes whom is weak in faith

3Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

But even if one is weak in faith then its not up to us to condemn them or judge them as not being of the faith. For God has accepted them and he will make the weak stand.

5One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

Here Paul establishes the importance of ones conscience in what one eats or drinks. If one feels that eating a food or drinking a drink is morally wrong and feels guilty in partaking of that food then one should not touch that food. same goes for observing Days if one feels inner compulsion to observe a day in a certain way then do so.

7For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written:

"As I live, says the LORD,

Every knee shall bow to Me,

And every tongue shall confess to God."

12So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

So if i have contempt for someone who does not eat or does not drink or does not observe a day or if i have contempt for one who does eat or does drink or does observe a day then i have judged and hated my brother and i sin.

13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.

So Paul says that nothing is unclean in itself But if one consider something unclean in their conscience then to that one it really is unclean. Because if one consumes that food or drink or observes that day then they are doing something against their conscience to God and therefore they are sinning "stumbling". Now if I know that one weak in the faith will judge me having contempt for me because i am drinking something then to drink in front of them causes them to stumble because they judge me calling what i do in good conscience to God sin. So we must resolve to do our best not knowingly eat meat or drink in front of one weak in the faith because it may cause them to stumble.

16Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.19Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

So if i want to eat or drink something that i know a weak brother or sister thinks is sin to eat or drink then it is best to enjoy such food or drink in private rejoicing and thankful to God for that food or drink. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But at the same time if i eat or drink something that i consider unclean or morally wrong then i condemn myself. 23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith;

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[wordsower]

Cats,

Paul is writing in a time when many Jews are being converted to Christianity and they have a lot of disputes over what is accepted or not. They are free from the law so Paul tells them that they don't have to observe all of those laws that were given to the Jews anymore. BUT he says if you know that you are free and your brother--who is weak in the faith--still learning and not yet understanding grace, doesn't agree with you then don't make it an issue. In other words, if you now feel you can eat pork but your brother doesn't, don't invite him over for pork chops! It will only offend him and distance you from him. He says don't let anyone judge you concerning these things., you have a guide, the Holy Spirit to guide you and He will convict you if there is sin, not your brother. But abide in love, bear with them, don't offend them.

Hope that helps

word of advice on SDA doctrine---STAY AWAY FROM IT! If you are not sure see truthorfables

[RGR]

Being in a Pentecostal church, I know many who will not listen to anything but gospel music. I, however, don't feel a leaning towards that conviction. I listen to anything that is decent and enjoy it. I make no secret of it to anyone who asks. However, if I see a friend walking along the road and stop to pick him up, my tape of Hank Williams or Jimmie Rodgers is going to be turned off so as not to force them to listen to something they feel a conviction over. This is what I think the verse is talking about.

[Catsmeow]

3Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

But even if one is weak in faith then its not up to us to condemn them or judge them as not being of the faith. For God has accepted them and he will make the weak stand.

You said something there that hit me, Adstar...

I knew a nice Christian couple, (hadn't been believers for very long...maybe a year or so) and they still smoked cigarettes.

Now I know quite a few Christians who smoke...really nice, born again believers who smoke. Yeah, I know it's bad for the lungs and they know it too, but they don't need the lecture over and over again.

I had one brother and his wife go so far as to say, "those two are going to hell because they wont' repent of cigarettes."

Well, last I heard..Jesus came to save us because we were needy and helpless and unable to defend outselves or free ourselves from enslavement.

I think this is horrible...when Christians looks at someone and see they have a flaw in this area or that. We all have areas of weakness and God helps us and delivers us from whatever vice entraps us.

I think it's wrong to assume anyone is unsaved just because they haven't been able get out of the muck they're in .....sometimes it just takes time and patience, which God has plenty of...It's "WE" who are often impatient.

Bless you all...I appreciate the answers. It give me something to go back and study and chew on a while...THank again. Cats

[Guest sanctification]

That sounds about right, Ronald.

The question I have is: what are "disputable matters"?

How far do we take this message of tolerance for the beliefs of others?

[keslc]

Being in a Pentecostal church, I know many who will not listen to anything but gospel music. I, however, don't feel a leaning towards that conviction. I listen to anything that is decent and enjoy it. I make no secret of it to anyone who asks. However, if I see a friend walking along the road and stop to pick him up, my tape of Hank Williams or Jimmie Rodgers is going to be turned off so as not to force them to listen to something they feel a conviction over. This is what I think the verse is talking about.

Great example! I totally agree with that!

[other one]

What I don't understand is that it doesn't seem to instruct us to teach the weak believer or those with little faith, to try and help them to be stronger. Or maybe I just missed it somewhere....

[Guest sanctification]

I wonder if the reason for that is because when God said "accept your weaker brother" he means "do not take issue with his inadequacies, no matter what they are: trust me, because I am able to make him stand."

This does not mean that we should not teach, or even tell people that they are flat out wrong. But make sure you do it with the right heart. Make sure that you trust God to work and not your preaching to work. Remeber that there is no condemnation for those who believe. There is nothing found in the law that God finds them blameable for. So that means we ought to think the same way about our brothers.

:hug: this knowledge is able to set you free in forgiveness for others, I think.