Is a belief in the Trinity Doctrine neccessary for salvation?

[Mudcat]

I would suggest you look into this further yourself. Here is the link to the commentary.

Hi BlindSeeker,

Interesting read. From what I can gather, and I may have you way of base.....seems you hold to Oneness/non-Trinitarian view on things. Have I got that right?

Regardless, I don't see that a further reading of the Clarke Commentary has me convinced of much. If you are a "Oneness" type Christian....I apologize for not being able to address your specific denomination, and my choice of wording isn't intended to be offensive. Do you feel this information supports your view and if so why?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[other one]

QUOTE

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

KJV

QUOTE

John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

KJV

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

QUOTE

John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

KJV

John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

KJV

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

QUOTE

Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

KJV

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE

John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

KJV

QUOTE

John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

KJV

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit

QUOTE

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

KJV

[Larry 2]

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

We read in 2 Corinthians 4:4 "of Christ, who is the image of God."

1 John 4:20 "how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

Colossians 1:15 is talking of Jesus "Who is the image of the invisible God."

Jesus was always God as He says of Himself in Revelation 1:19. "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

So if God is invisible as in Colossians 1:15 above, He is spirit and cannot be seen, but His image can be seen and that is Christ. And then Jesus (God) became man and dwelt among us. In the following exhert from a study Christ took seven great steps down from being equal with God and became man once and for all and will always be subject to His Father even though He's given all power in heaven and earth for a time until all things are subdued unto Him.

Christ's Seven Steps Down

Transcribed from A, S. Copley's

Philippians - Race Course of The Sons of God

Study Book of Philippians available free online at Gospel Fellowship and Grace and Glory College

Seven surpassing steps of His amazing condescension. They are unthinkable. No mere human mind could ever comprehend such a coming down. Only by divine revelation can we grasp it in some measure. Let us study closely and prayerfully each downward step by itself. But before we do so, we must note His exact state in heaven, as expressed by Philippians 2:6.

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." The Son of God sought nothing higher of greater; because He was already in the form of God; because He was equal with Him, for He was God. Because He announced Himself to be "equal with His Father are one," thus making Himself God, the Jews tried to kill Him-- John 5:18 and 10:30-33. Therefore when He came to the earth, He was not grasping after something; for He already possessed everything. Literally, "He esteemed not equality with God a thing to be seized with a hook;" but He

1. "Made Himself of no reputation." This is the first solemn step downward. That is, He "emptied Himself." All things were created by Him and for Him; by the emptied Himself of His strength, saying, "The Son can do nothing of Himself" -- John 5:19. "He was crucified thru weakness" -- 2 Cor. 13:4. He emptied Himself of His wealth, saying, "The Son of Man hath not where to lay His head" -- Matt. 8:20. Throughout the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus is called "the Son of Man" almost invariably, because He "made Himself of no reputation" as to His Deity. This emptying is expressed in Paul's words. "Tho He was rich, Yet for your sakes He became poor, that thru His poverty, Ye might become rich" --- 2 Cor. 8:9. He was rich in power and honor and place and ownership and holiness, but He voluntarily emptied Himself of it all for the sake of mankind.

Therefore He

2. "took upon Him the form of a servant." This is simply unthinkable. How could the high and holy Son of God, in debt to no one, not even to His Father, and needing nothing -- how could He take a slave's place and form? What an exchange! The holy Son of the most high God volunteered to exchange "the form of God" for the "form of a servant." Reader, do you grasp it? The Sovereign of the universe stepped from the loftiest place of absolute authority and power down to the low, menial place of slave.

3. "And was made in the likeness of men." If our Lord had taken on the form of a servant simply as the Son of God, His condescension would not have seemed so wonderful. If He had remained in heaven and served His Father and the Holy Spirit only, we might not marvel; but He became man. He took upon Him human flesh. He who fills immensity, assumed the limitations of a human body. It is simply an incomprehensible wonder. An elephant could never condense himself so as to occupy a thimble; but the eternal Son of God could clothe Himself with a man's body. Reason dashes its brains into atoms at this stupendous miracle; but faith lays hold upon it and turns a sinner into a saint makes him a "partaker of the divine nature" and transfixes him finally from earth to heaven.

4. "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself." The Son of God did not only become a man, but He took a lowly place as a man. He did not assume to be the chief master, chief slave. Study verse three again -- "In lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than Himself." Exactly that is what our Lord did in humbling Himself, or taking a lower position. Again we are amazed. We stand speechless before such majestic condescension. Each downward step of Omnipotence adds to our wonder, but also strengthens our faith and augments our love for Him.

5. "Became obedient." In the glory , He had unbounded authority to give orders to angels and arch-angels How He takes orders. Indeed He does not make a move of His own accord. "I have kept my Father's commandments, " He declares -- John 15:19. He refused to assert His rightful authority. Therefore, He announced, saying, "All authority is given unto me in heaven and in earth" -- Matt. 28:18. Mark you, this is not the authority which belonged to Him as the Son of God, but that which His Father has delegated to Him. As Man, Jesus Christ will be obedient eternally to His Father.

6. "Unto death." Here is another long stride downward. He became obedient. not only in service, by healing the sick, raising the dead ad by giving unparalleled instruction, all of which brought Him great honor; but He became "obedient unto death." When the Lord returned from His victorious conflict with Satan in the wilderness, "there went out a fame of Him thru all the region round about, and He taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all" -- Luke 14-15. Never man spake like this man" exclaimed the officers -- John 7:46. Nevertheless, He voluntarily laid down that record-breaking life at His Father's behest. He calmly declared, "Therefore doth My Father love me because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me/ but I lay it down myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." -- John 10:17,18. His obedience reached into death.

7. "Even the death of the cross." Oh , marvel of marvels! And bear in mind, Jesus did not die as a martyr for some great cause which He championed. He died as a criminal. "He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bare the sin of many" -- Isa. 53:12. "He who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" -- 2 Cor. 5:21. The death the Son of God died was the most shameful death then known. The worst criminals and outlaws were punished by execution on a cross. The ignominy of Christ's death is expressed by the facts that He was hanged in the place of Barabbas, who was an insurrectionist, a robber, a murderer, and between two thieves. Oh, the language fails to express the condescension of Christ.

With most people, the real meaning of Christ's death is not understood; therefore, its value is not worthily appreciated. It was in the darkest moment of His life, that He cried out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me ?' Because Jesus hung on the cross, dying in the sinner's stead, dying as if He were indeed the guilty sinner, upon whom holy justice cannot look with favor; for that reason He was accursed of God. The God of justice and holiness could not look upon Him. That is the meaning of the words, "He tasted death for every man." By that act, "He put away sin." He died as a transgressor, that the curse might be lifted from us the moment we believe. He wore a crown of thorns, that we might wear crowns of glory. He bore the eternal weight of our sins, that we might share with Him "an eternal weight of glory." The darkness of His hour of death and the depth of His unbearable suffering of soul, determined the brightness of the eternal light and the height of unmeasured joy that the saints may possess forever. "Oh, the unspeakable riches of His grace!"

[Mudcat]

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

QUOTE

John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

KJV

John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

KJV

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

QUOTE

Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

KJV

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE

John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

KJV

QUOTE

John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

KJV

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit

QUOTE

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

KJV

Hi Other One,

Justin Martyr seems to fall into agreement with you, on the matter of Christ being the one that appeared to the Hebrews in the OT. He fairly well spells out something along the same lines, in his "Dialogue with Trypho". I can only find agreement with both you and him on what you have said in that regard. And even though Trypho, a Jew walks away from the discussion unconvinced. There is another Jew who distinctly, supports your thoughts.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here we have Peter, further affirming that it was Christ who dealt with Noah. It is a recognition of his deity that can not be disregarded.

I think one of the underlying cases for the Trinity, can be found in Scriptures such as the ones that you have brought forth. Given that there are other Scriptures that say to see God is pretty much a death sentence and yet we have folks running about the OT, seeing God. To someone who understands the Trinity, it is a clear harmonization of the truth at least in clear regard to the distinction between Father and Son.

That whole idea of Christ being subordinate to the Father......

I don't quite know what to say....other than 'yes and no'

If the Father has given all things to the Son, as I would submit seems to be the case.

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

We can conclude a few things.

1. At some point the Son did not have 'All things'. (subordinate)

2. At some point the Son was given 'All things'. (not subordinate)

3. The Father had the power to give this gift of 'All things'(subordinate)

4. The Son had the power to receive this gift of 'All things' (not subordinate)

I would further posit, that such a gift would not be retracted unless the Son did something deserving such a retraction (Sin).

Since, I would speculate that both you and I think Christ is eternally perfect, the possibility of such a retraction is no only unlikely but impossible.

To say otherwise, would seem to indicate the possibility of the imperfect stewardship of 'All things'.

Ergo, it is my opinion that Christ is conditionally but unconditionally not subordinate to the Father.

What do you think?

Feel free to shoot some holes in this, as I just seem to have come up with it. It may have some fallacies, that I haven't considered.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Edited September 14, 2008 by Mudcat

[nebula]

If I may just chime in here.

We know the Scripture says that "God is One."

Yet we know Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

What we have here is something that exists outside of our conventional understanding. It is like the old physics question of how can light be both a particle and a wave?

Well, the question was answered by the discovery that light is a photon and then understanding the properties of that photon.

Instead of arguing "particle vs. wave", we need to figure out how the two contradictions can both be true.

How is God "One" yet be "Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

My personal opinion is that it is more important to believe in the absolute truth of the two "contradictory" positions without fully understanding the nature of how the contradictions fit together than it is to have an agreement on how the contradictions fit together.

As long as you believe that Jesus is the same God as the Father and the Holy Spirit is the same God as the Father and Son, I'm not too worried about how you reconcile the issue.

What bothers me are those who believe Jesus and / or the Holy Spirit are "lesser" than the Father or not truly God at all.

[AnotherTraveler]

When it is not found in over a hundred of the old manuscripts, it certainly seams to have been added later (for whatever reason).

Over the centuries, there have been some zealous souls that decided to "fix" what God has written, it seams.

High AT,

I hope you don't mind me 'horning in', but I find this interesting. Admittedly, the Johanine Comma... is at best difficult to recognize as completely authoritative...due to the reasons you have submitted. However, I would posit that if we presume that this passage was changed, to make the doctrine of the Trinity more clearly understood. Then don't you think it likely that the only reason this change was accepted by the Church at large, was for that very reason? I certainly don't think it was accepted, because the Trinity was not a doctrine that was accepted prior to the Johanine Comma.

You would think that if it was out of line with the teachings of the Church...someone would have raised a pretty big ruckus about it. I am unaware of such an uproar in that time frame, though you may have some more information on the subject.

I suppose the matter might be thread worthy, in and of itself.

You seem to take the standpoint that there was definitely a change made, instead of possibly an omission made in some copies of previous manuscripts. I am curious to know what your thoughts on the intent of the change was, but more importantly, how you think this change has impacted the Church at large.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

From what I understand the evidence is pretty clear that a change was made, and I also have heard or read of no uproar over the change, as it likely reinforced doctrinal positions that were held by the powers that were at that time, however...the real danger is that there was no uproar over adding to or taking away from the scripture.

Any true student of church history will find horrid periods of brutality and murder done on behalf of Christ (supposedly), and certainly done in the church's name and with the church's full weight of power and authority, no one actually denies this anymore, not even Rome.

As to making the doctrine of the trinity more clearly understood, it is a central position of the trinity doctrine that it is a mystery (hence, NOT to be clearly understood), so why go through the effort of trying? The problem is that when the effort to defend the doctrine that is not understandable fails, then the requirement is that it be accepted by faith (making that doctrine equal with scripture), and then changing the scripture to support the doctrine (making it SUPERIOR to scripture), and then condemning anyone that refuses to acknowledge the doctrine as a principle truth (making accepting the doctrine more important than our requirement by scripture not to judge one another).

Cain killed Able and the type still stands. Why did Cain kill Able? It wasn't because of what Able did, but because Cain's works were not accepted of God. My point? You don't EVER have to change scripture to establish truth, scripture establishes truth, therefore, if the scripture must be changed to establish a doctrine already believed, SOMETHING is amiss, and the enemy is taking an advantage for some reason, so we (as believers) should ask outloud, what is the problem here?

[AnotherTraveler]

If I may just chime in here.

We know the Scripture says that "God is One."

Yet we know Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

What we have here is something that exists outside of our conventional understanding. It is like the old physics question of how can light be both a particle and a wave?

Well, the question was answered by the discovery that light is a photon and then understanding the properties of that photon.

Instead of arguing "particle vs. wave", we need to figure out how the two contradictions can both be true.

How is God "One" yet be "Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

My personal opinion is that it is more important to believe in the absolute truth of the two "contradictory" positions without fully understanding the nature of how the contradictions fit together than it is to have an agreement on how the contradictions fit together.

As long as you believe that Jesus is the same God as the Father and the Holy Spirit is the same God as the Father and Son, I'm not too worried about how you reconcile the issue.

What bothers me are those who believe Jesus and / or the Holy Spirit are "lesser" than the Father or not truly God at all.

Good answer.

[AnotherTraveler]

The principles verses the thesis.

Principles...

The Father is God

The Son is God

The Holy Spirit is God

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God.

There is only one God.

There are not three Gods.

Trinity or Oneness, both agree with these listed principles.

However, when someone takes in hand to write a thesis to better express or understand these principles, it hits the fan! Why? Both hold the scripture as the foundation of the way they believe, and neither are willing to hold what the other says as equal to scripture (good for them).

So what should we do? Cease demanding others to acknowledge our attempts to explain or summarize, and recommend to each other to trust God's written word, and continue to walk in love one to another, and then we will fulfill the scriptures rather than argue the scriptures.

[Mudcat]

From what I understand the evidence is pretty clear that a change was made, and I also have heard or read of no uproar over the change, as it likely reinforced doctrinal positions that were held by the powers that were at that time, however...the real danger is that there was no uproar over adding to or taking away from the scripture.

Any true student of church history will find horrid periods of brutality and murder done on behalf of Christ (supposedly), and certainly done in the church's name and with the church's full weight of power and authority, no one actually denies this anymore, not even Rome.

As to making the doctrine of the trinity more clearly understood, it is a central position of the trinity doctrine that it is a mystery (hence, NOT to be clearly understood), so why go through the effort of trying? The problem is that when the effort to defend the doctrine that is not understandable fails, then the requirement is that it be accepted by faith (making that doctrine equal with scripture), and then changing the scripture to support the doctrine (making it SUPERIOR to scripture), and then condemning anyone that refuses to acknowledge the doctrine as a principle truth (making accepting the doctrine more important than our requirement by scripture not to judge one another).

Cain killed Able and the type still stands. Why did Cain kill Able? It wasn't because of what Able did, but because Cain's works were not accepted of God. My point? You don't EVER have to change scripture to establish truth, scripture establishes truth, therefore, if the scripture must be changed to establish a doctrine already believed, SOMETHING is amiss, and the enemy is taking an advantage for some reason, so we (as believers) should ask outloud, what is the problem here?

AT,

All I can do is echo your sentiments, but I thank you for taking the time and effort to reply with such a well thought out response.

Sadly, I don't think the passage referenced, is the only instance of such additions.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Smalcald]

Well I do believe that scripture fully supports the Trinity and the traditional doctrine of the Trinity.

However I am totally unfamiliar with this "oneness" belief it sounds very similar to me to the Trinity. I guess I don't understand why the original doctrine needed tinkering with or changing particularly when the change seems so small?

But anyway that is just my take and like I have said all along I cannot make the leap to say who is saved or not based on their specific understanding of the Trinity. It seems to me that Oneness is Trinitarian, it is simply a different spin, although I know theologians in my own congregation would freak out somewhat with that statement; but when something is as mysterious as the Trinity it would seem you are going to have different understandings because we are flawed humans.

I just worry that we seem to be drifting into all sorts of beliefs about what a Christian even is, about who Jesus is, what will become of us without any agreed to ideas about what the bible even says?